So, why is B12 not available over the counter in the UK?

[BeachArt]

I am well aware that B12 (for injection) is not available over the counter in the UK, yet it is in many other countries. But what is the thinking behind it? Is it lack of medical understanding? Is it that the UK lags behind other countries? Or is it, as I suspect, due to the fact that there is no money to be made for big pharma, so it is ignored?I know there is a petition, which I have signed, but we desperately need it to be available OTC. It is just bonkers to me that it isn't!!

[clivealive Forum Support]

I have been holding on for over fifty years with fingers crossed (which makes typing difficult) fearing that my repeat prescription for cyanocobamalin (x5 vials) injections would be rejected by my surgery - I'm still hanging on at the age of 81

[wedgewood]

It might be because it is given by Intra-muscular injection in U.K. An I.M injection being considered a more complicated procedure than sub-cutaneous .Some Diabetics in U.K. are encouraged to self -inject with insulin , but by the sub-cutaneous method .

But we who get our B12 ampoules from Germany know that B12 is suitable for sub-cutaneous injection-It is printed on the front of the packet . And I’m sure that German medical knowledge is competent .

Many members of this forum use the Sub-cut method and know that it is effective . The needle is half the length used by I.M. and also much finer -G30’

Everything considered , there is no good reason why B12 ampoules should not be obtainable OTC in U.K. , as they are in Germany and many other countries .It is common knowledge that B12 injections cannot be overdosed .

Usually there is a good reason why certain medications are prescription only —because they can be dangerous . This is not the case for B12 ampoules . THERE IS NO SENSE IN THEM BEING A PRESCRIPTION ITEM.

Perhaps there is a quite different reason , but I can’t think of one . I don’t want to believe that those higher “powers that be” just want to make our lives more difficult , do I ?

.

[BeachArt in reply to wedgewood]

It just beggars belief, doesn't it? I cannot understand why it is a prescription only medicine. As you say, it is not dangerous, and you cannot overdose on it. At one point my doctor wanted to put me on B12 tablets because, I quote, 'the injections are too high a dose'. Yet the prescription tablets were the same strength!!

I think some of it is lack of knowledge. Some of it is a fear on the doctors part because, as you say, it is an intra-muscular injection. But, sadly, I do believe that it comes down to money. Or lack of, from the big pharma viewpoint. And it frustrates me so much that such a vital, life changing, non-dangerous, medication isn't readily available in the UK because it is not financially viable for big pharma

[Nackapan in reply to BeachArt]

Frustrating. As not licensed for subcutaneous injections its prescribed 'off license '

at present to me.

A long fight but obviously possible.

I then wasn't allowed to get taught by a nurse as off licence .!

It takes years to change this.

It seems of no interest to change it.

Until its understood more.

Researched more

It won't change.

It can and does get prescribed on thd NHS but' off licence 'for sc .

Things need to change.

It wasn't easy years ago for diabetics.

No pens for injecting or pumps for children. No long snd short acting insulin made.

Tablets prescribed when injectios needed.

A wasting disease.

Pig insulin then synthetic insulin.

Liver (raw to consume)then synthetic b12.

The cynic in me says it affects more women of a certain age.

And an expensive drug not needed.

Research is funded by drug companies .

Alot of money is needed for research.

Short sighted due the expense of so many tests.

Loss of work.ect ect .

Let's hope for change very soon

[Hockey_player in reply to BeachArt]

I did OK on tablets for a long time. If you have pernicious anemia, you won't absorb as much as a normal person from tablets. I got by taking 1000 times the daily dose. Until I did not. I had to switch to injections because of nerve problems in my feet. The injections work better and for me they are a necessity now.

[25092 in reply to wedgewood]

Hello Wedgewood, you mentioned many members use the Sub-cut method and the needle is half the length used by I.M. and much finer -G30’. Would you so kindly suggest where I can get that type of needle and can it be injected in the arm? I'm always looking for a less painful way of getting this jab. Thank you

[wedgewood in reply to 25092]

You can get all you need for an injection ( except the B12 ampoule!) from

medisave.co.uk

exchangesupplies.org

You can get a small kit from shdmedical.co.uk

The needle you need for sub-cutaneous is 1/2 inch x30G .

You can inject by sub-cut into the tummy fat , the upper arms , and the upper thighs . You will get more precise details if you Google , with illustrations . Best wishes .

Numbing cream obtainable from Amazon . Always use a long withdrawing needle . If you use the injection needle to withdraw , you will make it blunt if it touches the glass of the ampoule . ( Ouch!)

[25092 in reply to wedgewood]

You are awesome Wedgewood! Thank you!

[MoKayD in reply to wedgewood]

I think self injecting medication is becoming more common. I just started taking a new medication that, once a week, I inject in to my tummy. If pharmacies would offer B12 in an easy to administer pen instead of ampules that need to be drawn up into a syringe, it might encourage governments to legalize B12 as over the counter therapy.

[Orchard33]

I think everyone agrees with you. I don't know the origins of this absurd control. I would like to know how it came about. I imagine big Pharma is one reason.

[WIZARD6787]

So, why is B12 not available over the counter in the UK? Willful ignorance driven by arrogance driven by the need to be seen as in charge due to low self worth.

[pitney]

We must keep raising awareness as and when we can and please don't give up on your local MPs I sent mine some info that I printed off the PAS site and he was interested but we have to keep getting the message out there 👍

[Polaris in reply to pitney]

Over the years, I’ve written to several health secretaries with pitifully uncaring responses.

Even reminding my local MP (New Forest) about trained scientists, David Davis MP, (recommending high dose vitamin D during pandemic) and Andrew Bridgen MP (past advocat for the Post Office scandal victims, now the vaccine injured) invoked another careless response - “not my field” !

Am now wondering just what these useless Health Secretaries/MPs are there for ?

[pitney in reply to Polaris]

Difficult subject all the way

What we really need is backing from a VIP or a Celebrity to get (and keep ) PA in the news but its hard to get 2 GPs to agree about symptoms and treatment although I do think its worth trying to get more people involved as the more interest the more likely it is people will push for more research etc

Sorry you have always had such a bad response Polaris , keep working on it and I hope you are in reasonable health at the moment😀Best wishes

[witchcat43 in reply to Polaris]

Not helped by Jeremy Hunt, when Health Secretary telling everyone to eat broccoli to get their B12…the ignorance goes right to the top…😡

[Polaris in reply to witchcat43]

I agree - Wasn’t it Matt Hancock though telling us to eat broccoli for B12?😅

[witchcat43 in reply to Polaris]

You’re quite correct…I stand corrected 🙂

[Loupharm]

medicines in the U.K. are regulated as:

POM - Prescription-only medicine

 P (Pharmacy) medicine - the default status for a medicine in the U.K. (requires the supervision of a pharmacist for sale) 

Or GSL - general sales list or “over the counter” medicine ie you can buy without the input of a pharmacist

This link explains the classification and re-classification process between these groups

gov.uk/guidance/medicines-r...

There is a process involved in applying for the re-classification of the prescription status of a medicine described - I think this is usually driven by a pharmaceutical company- as B12 is a “generic” medicine (off patent)

I suspect there is not the will from big Pharma companies to push this forward

In particular see this section which explains why B12 injections are POM

“Prescription-only medicine (POM) to pharmacy (P) medicine”

A medicine will be non-prescription unless it fulfils the criteria for prescription control as set out below: see the final point

Prescription only status will apply where…. …the product is normally prescribed for parenteral administration (by injection)

In the UK these criteria are laid down in the Human Medicines Regulations 2012, regulation 62(3). These Regulations consolidate the law concerning medicinal products for human use

I think it’s unusual (not sure it’s actually ever happened) for a medicine to be re-classified from  POM to GSL in one step- usually it goes POM to P then P to GSL as they test the safety of de-regulation 

Hope that makes sense of the process

[helvella in reply to Loupharm]

Though the problem often isn't actually the POM status itself.

It is that the person cannot find a prescriber who will prescribe.

This forces them to seek to obtain without prescription.

If everyone with a PA diagnosis could readily get a prescription as they need, then the argument fades somewhat. Though there will still be people (e.g. without formal PA diagnosis) who would not be helped.

[Rosydawn in reply to Loupharm]

So in essence ...there is a law that prohibits anyone giving injections even to yourself. This is what makes it prescription only in this country (uk) and not other countries.The same law has certain exclusions for certain professionals in the course of their duties to prevent them being prosecuted for giving an injection.

And there is also a unique exclusion for diabetes control. In addition special permission has been obtained from the government by big pharma, to use epipens and similar to self administer certain medicines. Big pharma not interested in b12 as you cannot make profit from a generic vitamin.

Notably the same special permissions had to be granted to those volunteers who gave/ give covid injections and it still had to have a gp or pharmacist in attendance. So it can be done if there is support at a high enough level.

Hence the petition to change the law. Without an exclusion written into the law or better ability to grant special permissions nothing can change to deregulate the red tape around b12 injections.

[27Protons in reply to Rosydawn]

"So in essence ...there is a law that prohibits anyone giving injections even to yourself."

Not quite, there is no law explicitly prohibiting you from giving yourself or anyone else (at least their consent in practice) per say (it may come under ABH & GBH like surgery technically would so there is some case law to this well as you can't technically consent to either of those) although the maybe an issue if you make medical claims which is why the women in you local salon can give & sell vitamin b12 injections if they say its for "beauty purposes" and you tell them you want it for beauty purposes".

The 2 main issue in the UK is (a) the Medicine act 1968 as before this you could buy insulin & hypodermic needles over the counter in the UK (so you could probably buy injectable vitamin b12 for medical purposes). I suspect due to perception regard a growing IV drug addiction problem at the time and carelessly discarded hypodermic needles as well as the whole Keep Britain Tidy stuff they just made all injectable medication Prescription-only medicine the only exclusions I'm aware of is (1) hypodermic needles & some related things due the needle sharing fiasco (this act caused) and the HIV situation in the 1980s (2) hospital and other medical setting being liberal with the term equipment to avoid nurses needing to get a prescription for an excessive amount of their job (which is probably why I suspect other countries look at each injectable medicine in turn instead of making them POM.)

b) The treatment is not evidence based e.g. expecting every 3 months to be enough, many doctors don't bother to read even the existing guidelines e.g. testing people having injects and stopping injection based on high values or stopping injects for pregnant women in case it harm the baby while giving them a folate Prescription (you need both vitamin b9 & b12 for the same reason) or use their clinic judgment e.g. giving someone a prescription for anti-depressants when there is less risk to increasing the frequency of their vitamin b12 injections

[Pickle500]

My suspicion is that other countries that sell OTC like Canada and Australia do so because they have to. Patients can live many miles from medical centres making every day or other day injections untenable for most people - no-one will drive 4 hours to a medical centre and back in these remote areas.

So OTC has to be offered. There's no other choice.

But I think in practice this means lowered costs in terms of fewer nurses paid to help out.

It may be the case for Germany too.

Either way, the UK is packed with medical centres so seems unlikely we will ever be able to use geography to leverage OTC. On top of that, we are a heavy law-abiding, generally Conservative nation who will be scared if people are injecting themselves.

So there's a very long way to go.

[Cherylclaire Forum Support in reply to Pickle500]

..... Is that small-c conservative ?

[Pickle500 in reply to Cherylclaire]

Indeed 😀

[27Protons]

I believe before the Medicine act 1968 you could buy insulin & hypodermic needles over the counter in the UK (so you could probably buy vitamin b12) so I suspect due to perception regard a growing IV drug addiction problem at the time and carelessly discarded hypodermic needles as well as the whole Keep Britain Tidy stuff they just made all injectable medication Prescription-only medicine.

Things changed due to the needle sharing fiasco this caused in the 1970s with first viral hepatitis which resulted in doctors prescribing hypodermic needles to Heroin addicts but in some places the police tried to stop /discouraged this but after the HIV/AIDS situation in the 1980s I think the British government were concerned at the optics of all of this especially if medics called this out.

[jointpain]

It isn't available in the UK for one reason. Without freely available injectable B12 those with PA and there are many of us, will die prematurely, saving the government thousands of £££s in state pensions. Also you will find the PA tests are pretty poor in diagnosing PA, as in my case, my dead mothers case my dead father's case. I buy from Europe and don't want the same fate. The government are health thieves.

[shaws in reply to jointpain]

It is so very sad that we, the children, when mature enough find that the death of a parent(s) was due to negligence by the medical professionals.

[shaws]

My GP told me I can have as many B12 injections as I wish.

I make an appointment with their Nurse - monthly.

My mother had P.A. but, unfortunately, for her and family a GP told her she needed no more injections as her blood result was fine (after about 15 years of injections).

My Mother died due to the stomach cancer and I think it was due to not having regular B12 injections.

[pitney in reply to shaws]

My thoughts are with you I am so sorry to hear that , my father also died of stomach cancer when I was 10 and I still remember how ill he was

[Sleepybunny]

Hi,

Tracey Witty, a UK campaigner on B12 deficiency issues, has tried for years to get B12 injections available over the counter in UK. She started a petition which has now ended.

Links to her blog posts explaining some of the issues

b12deficiency.info/b12-otc-...

b12deficiency.info/eight-lo...

[BeachArt in reply to Sleepybunny]

I signed the petition a couple of years ago. Do you know the outcome?

[Sleepybunny in reply to BeachArt]

She discusses what's happened in one of the links in my reply above.

[dot-dash]

And, related, the ministerial 'observation' following another petition in 2020.

hansard.parliament.uk/Commo...