A News item

[Nackapan]

Some Maternity wards have suspended 'Gas and air'

Entinox nitrous oxide.

A risk to staff

And users.

Annoyingly don't say why a health risk.

Depetes B12

[wedgewood]

Yes that is really strange that no reason is given . We know that overdose results in B12 deficiency.

I have read more than once on the forum of midwives who have suffered B12 deficiency . .Apparently many birthing rooms are not sufficiently ventilated .

Also young folk who attend festivals are offered the nitrous oxide in balloons or in those little “ bomb-like “metal capsules. Freely available on Amazon .Co.U.K. .Under the heading “Whipped cream chargers “ - 10 “ bombs” for £6.55 !!!

Many young people have damaged themselves with the gas .

Thanks for letting us know Nackapan .

[Sleepybunny]

Hi Nackapan,

Just wondered if you had a link about this as I'm very interested in the issue.

NHS page on pain relief in labour says that gas and air mix has no harmful effects for mother or baby but I still wonder about women with low B12 and PA and about those women who have prolonged exposure.

I had my first ever migraine after a labour with prolonged exposure to nitrous oxide. No-one warned me about nitrous oxide.

There have been midwives on this forum struggling with B12 deficiency type symptoms.

I met a midwife a few years ago who had to give up midwifery due to a loss of sensation in her hands. She felt nitrous oxide exposure was the probable reason.

Nitrous Oxide

gov.uk/drug-safety-update/n...

NICE guidelines Nitrous Oxide ( see side effects section)

bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/nitrou...

[Sleepybunny in reply to Sleepybunny]

Found a link to a newspaper article

express.co.uk/life-style/he...

[Nackapan in reply to Sleepybunny]

Oh good.Thanks.

I can't find any evidence but have personally known many staff on maternity with 'weird symptoms.

I worked on a maternity ward for 5 years . 84 hour weeks .

On nights. ( had time back but all staff did this.

Staff did get headaches, nausea.weakness.

All of course coukd be anything.

However as mentioned midwives have had to give uo work.

If on the Labour ward . All these condensed hours in a small delivery suite caused problems.

Entinox mouth pieces so in the atmosphere.

It was and still is s common thing offered.

There are legal limit levels for the atmosphere.

I never witnessed it being tested.

All in Hindsight of course.

I only used it once in one labour.

Made me me so sick and light headed ! 3 puffs and asked for it to be taken away.

Not suprised it induced z first evef migraine.

The noise of the machine. A recording perhaps more helpful to control breathing.

[Wallylyn]

I understand why now! My nieces daughter used the canister with her friends for fun last week. She is now in hospital with spine/ nerve problems. Will have to be taught to walk , write again. Anything from the neck down is numb!!

[wedgewood in reply to Wallylyn]

That’s awful Wallylyn . I hope she can make a full recovery , and tell her friends of the dangers .

[Wwwdot in reply to wedgewood]

echo. That is distressing news. Hope there is a silver lining an increased awareness amongst young people of the risks of having this kind of “fun”.

[Pickle500 in reply to Wallylyn]

Unfortunately there is no 'for fun' with whippets. It is a dangerous drug, more dangerous than street drugs like ketamin, ecstasy, cocaine, in my opinion.

I am so sorry to hear this. But please spread the word that it is not 'for fun'.

[Sleepybunny in reply to Wallylyn]

I'm so sorry to hear that and I hope she is getting enough B12 as part of her treatment

Martyn Hooper posted about nitrous oxide in 2015 on his blog about PA and B12 deficiency.

martynhooper.com/2015/08/22...

[Wallylyn in reply to Sleepybunny]

thank you! Her mother has set up a page to warn other young people the dangers that could exist from using it.

[pitney in reply to Wallylyn]

hope she recovers well from this

[Wallylyn in reply to pitney]

thank you, so do I. You can’t put an old head on young shoulders.lots of dangers for young people these days.

[topazrat]

Its good to see more exposure on the risks on Entonox. I was offered it by a paramedic and I declined, saying that as I had P.A. it was contraindicated as it depleted B12 and could be very dangerous for me. He didn't know about this, neither did my sister-in-law, who was also a paramedic. She asked her boss, who confirmed that it was indeed true! Its scary that front line crew have never been told.

[wedgewood]

You have done us a favour by alerting us to the problem Nackapan .

[Pickle500]

Actually, the reason they're suspending them is because of hospital ward ventilation. It says nothing about B12 deficiency. It is the Daily Express - staunch supports of raising awareness of B12 - who add in that prolonged exposure to nitrous oxide leads to B12 deficiency.

I am certain that my operation to remove a parotid gland tumor and half my thyroid used a considerable amount of nitrous oxide. That was in August 2020, and by March 2021 I was out of it with B12 symptoms. It had also followed a colonoscopy one year previously where I took the gas and air.

I was a low meat eater but not a vegetarian. And not in the traditional bracket for PA.

I firmly believe that B12 is the biggest vitamin that is 'used up' to detoxify the body. Alcohol users, drug users, whippet users all experience massive B12 depletion.

So could it be that the mechanism is not necessarily dependent on two causes, i.e. diet or PA? These are reasons for deficiency, but they do not explain nitrous oxide or alcoholic neuropathy. And neither of those causes are advertised on the NHS pages.

Basically, I think that B12 is a life force of it's own that the liver needs to perform detoxification. You could be the biggest meat eater, then have a long session on nitrous oxide which would still deplete your levels to a dangerous point.

And if pregnant women don't get gas and air, what will they get?

Medical science has to catch up fast here. I sense there is still gaslighting going on. But there are too many urgencies for medics to keep gaslighting us because of their ignorance.

Maybe they're recognising nitrous oxide in whippet users (as a medical urgency) and trying to limit the number of cases? They don't want lawsuits on their hands.

If only Elon Musk or Bill Gates but their money into healthcare research.

Sometimes, we have to admit that humans are not as clever as they think. And the most obvious answers are sometimes right in front of us.

[Scott-rock in reply to Pickle500]

before my hernia op last year I had been on B12 for 6 months and was feeling so much better.

After the op I felt very tired again and it lasted a good month. Then all my spinal problems flared up. I can’t blame it all on the nitrous though.

[charks]

In the article I read in the Sunday times it does state the reason is that it causes B12D.

[Pickle500 in reply to charks]

Yes you're right, I can see several other articles stating B12 like The Times and BBC. I think its the cynic in me who is incredulous as a first response. But the more I read, the more I realise that I should've taken myself to the hospital when my deficiency broke. I called 111 and was asked if I had mental health or depression issues after explaining the numbness and burning in my limbs. I was then referred to my GP, which took 5 days for a response.

By that time, I lost all control over my senses. It was too late. But who would know? Only me, and silly me thought Id just try and sort out my deficiency myself since the NHS were so busy.

Awareness isn't poor, its non existent. This is becoming a significant problem. So let's hope that our pain and struggles are worth something for the greater good, if nothing else but to help more medics understand that its not a joke.

[Sleepybunny]

I came across a BMJ article about nitrous oxide induced SACD, sub acute combined degeneration of the spinal cord.

The BMJ article is mentioned in this news article from Barts hospital in UK

bartshealth.nhs.uk/news/new...

[Baklava22]

Hi, I just heard on the radio that the health risks are to the midwives of child bearing age, who are exposed to it all day. It has now been shown to affect their pregnancies, causing smaller babies and even some deformities.

[Nackapan in reply to Baklava22]

Oh goodness .

That as well!!

Not heard that .

A coincidence I thought having a small for dates prem baby .

But was 3 yesrs after leaving maternity ward so more likely low b12 never tested .???

Will never know.

It's not just midwives exposed to it all day on maternity.

Doctors are in and out but many hours spent there on occasions.

Any staff will be affected on Maternity .

[WIZARD6787]

In 1975 I had two wisdom teeth out with nitrous oxide Freaked out for two hours slept for about 16.

In 1985 had dental work done with nitrous oxide. I I experienced the pain on the other side of my mouth. (Neurological System) Pretty much a root canal with no Novocain. I took the mask off and got up out of the dentist chair. The dentist was sweating profusely. Dentist used clove and that calmed the pain down enough so that he could use a ligaject (SP) to injection something into the root of the tooth and finished. I have since learned most dentists do not bother to keep a ligajet in the office as it is seldom needed to save expense.

Had dental work done about 5 times with nitrous oxide and would sleep on the way home in my car and then make it home and sleep for hours no matter what the time of day.

In 1995 had my other wisdom teeth out by the same dentist. Drove home and went to a job site I was working on and slept in my car. My clients happened to show up and woke me up. They could tell something was wrong and they prayed for me. (Holy Rollers) I got my car and headed home. A person following me said I kept going from one side of the road to the other and further from the center line each time. I then went through a guard rail and down a stone abutment and into a river, Totaling my car. Ambulance to the emergency room and was released with no injuries.

As I was writing I remembered another experience. In 1990 I was a superintendent on a 64 unit luxury condominium in Florida and had dental work done and came back to the site and went off on a engineer. He said he had never seen anything like it.

There is other evidence but I have clearly been B12 and B6 deficient my whole life until when 65 and according to a hematologist was 4 weeks away from death and my B12 levels were tested and below detectable limits. Numerous incorrect diagnosis. Fortunately I read well and practice critical thinking so I avoided treatment except for 6 years of bi-polar. In 1995 with three years of recovering from the medication prescribed.

I never lose consciousness when under nitrous oxide my brain does not work right. As I was going over the embankment into the river I rolled down my window so I would not drown. I can hear and remember what the dentist says. Which freaks them out.

So my life is not at all a sad story. Just a lot harder than it needed to be. I am not that bad off physically and have wonderful people in my life and always have. Including those that comment and write here. Good news is I am used to my life being hard as it always has been.

[wedgewood in reply to WIZARD6787]

You are coping very well considering . All the best .

[WIZARD6787 in reply to wedgewood]

Thank you. I chose to heal and not cope. I accept my limitations but not the limitations of experts who try and limit what I can and can not experience based on what they believe.

[3rdNettydoon]

This has just been on Jeremy Vine BBC radio 2. A man rang in about his wife being a dental nurse. Her doctor asked what her job was, when she told him Dental Nurse he said he had seen this before and it was B12d that she will have for life. Also this lady is receiving an injection every FOUR weeks. Good that. This will be on catch up or whatever it is.

[wedgewood in reply to 3rdNettydoon]

Surely the B12 deficiency caused by nitrous oxide doesn’t mean that she will have B12 deficiency FOR LIFE !

[Wwwdot in reply to wedgewood]

Good point - campaigning for B12d awareness needs to differentiate between a body which is B12d even when exposed to B12 (malabsorption) to one that is B12d due to other factors such as diet & medication etc.

[Sleepybunny in reply to 3rdNettydoon]

Here's a link to the Jeremy Vine programme you mentioned.

bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001jb0z

[Sleepybunny]

BMJ news article about withdrawal of gas and air mix from some hospitals in UK

Maternity care: Entonox is withdrawn from some hospitals because of risk to staff from high exposure

BMJ 2023;380:p212

bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p212

Also found an interesting article when I searched for "royal college of midwives nitrous oxide".

I read that RCM (Royal College of Midwives) is considering legal action.

[Hidden]

Speaking of depleting b12 I am taking metformin 500mg twice a day for type2 diabetes.does anyone know if there is something else I could take instead.

[Sleepybunny in reply to Hidden]

I think it's best to talk to your doctor if you have concerns about medication. It may also be helpful to talk to a local pharmacist.

In UK, my understanding is that patients on metformin should be monitored to check for b12 deficiency.

[Sleepybunny]

University of Nottingham article about Nitrous Oxide

( SACD, sub acute combined degeneration of the spinal cord is mentioned)

nottingham.ac.uk/news/surge...