Scientists at UCL have discovered that low serotonin levels are not the cause of depression. And therefore a 'chemical imbalance' can no longer be blamed on feelings of depression or anxiety.
neurosciencenews.com/seroto...
Antidepressants have been prescribed for 70 years. That's a long time to give people a drug they don't need.
How long will it be before they realise B12 or other B vitamin deficiencies can cause low feelings and run a blood test first?
uspharmacist.com/article/st...
Maybe we're set for a breakthrough soon?
Let's continue to hope for that. The introduction of additional folate into food mentioned at the end of this article is something that Martyn Hooper (founder of PAS) did not want to see introduced here as supplemented folate can mask a B12 deficiency.
Maybe depression is also linked to suppressed emotions that were never allowed expression throughout the formative years - early childhood. It takes a LOT of energy to "fit in" to a dysfunctional family or a controlling/manipulative parent. If getting angry results in a massive punitive response from a feared parent or teacher, then we just have to find ways to suppress and hide this emotion. These unwanted emotions don't just go away, they become buried in cellular memory - depressed down into the poor body to carry. Lump in throat, knot in stomach, pounding heart ........ wish the "medical profession" would look beneath the bonnet and take into consideration emotional trauma too.
Well said and very true. I think very often tough childhood experiences can manifest in health issues years later
Don’t I know it!! Thankfully I did a lot of work to heal my own traumas and very necessary that was. Now I’m helping others to slough off the toxic conditioning & deep fears from their past. Deeply satisfying work to see them transformed !
I'm sorry to hear about your own traumas but what a wonderful thing you're doing to help others.
I've observed intergenerational trauma in the female lineage in my family. The line has finally stopped with my sister, but the scars are strong. So if you can intervene and help people change before they pass it on it is extremely important work!
Take care
Yes that’s the most fulfilling aspect of all - not only seeing my clients transform but knowing that they then become so much more loving and sensitive towards their children. And not pass the trauma on to yet another generation. So much respect to your sister in stopping that particular line.
I was fortunate to never suffer any mental health issues in my life, that is until I became addicted to prescribed OxyContin, (Heroin in tablet form), which fueled the Opioid epidemic in the US.My MH plummeted to the point I didn't want to be here anymore after losing my career and everything I'd worked hard all my life for due to my addiction, and due to the lack of support for those who become dependent or addicted to prescription drugs.
To cut what is a very long story short, and after lots of research and now knowing what substances and certain prescribed drugs do to us, it's the best research I could ever have done.
My new GP tried me on various antidepressants that didn't work, so I refused to take them anymore.
That's when he ordered a full blood test which he said the results were severely low B12, Macrocytic Anemia, Pernicious Anemia and Folate deficiency.
Given time for my brains neurotransmitters etc to regain balance from the damage caused by OxyContin, along with injections for PA, my MH improved and has never been better.
I recently set up a service due to the total lack of support in England that I wish I had when I needed it, and now work for the NHS raising awareness, supporting and educating clinicians, and more importantly supporting patients to come off prescribed drugs safely.
What a super story. You should be proud and you give hope to others
I am so sorry to read your story but deeply moved by what you have gone on to achieve.
Truly inspirational and thank you.
Thank you and you're very welcome.Although I didn't see it at the time, knowing what I know now I wouldn't go back and change anything that happened to me.
I have gained much knowledge from my own experience and backed it up with research and science.
By helping those who are where I once was due to failings in the system, and drug services in England not being funded by the government to help the many dependent or addicted to prescription drugs, Is far more rewarding that my previous career.
It's very similar in a way to PA & B12 deficiency, most Dr's aren't trained or educated in addiction, so the people needing help and support are just left to suffer.
Thank you.
That's a very strong way of seeing it.
You have such a powerful story, I hope it reaches far and wide and makes Doctors think/question more about what they're doing.
Paying doctors to overprescribe opiod's including Purdue's Oxycontin.As is usual in such matters they make an example of one doctor and then
its business as usual. In this case a doctor got 20 years for prescribing 2 million
doses in over two years. The patients got hooked on the drugs mainly
Fentanyl, a very cheap drug but maybe 50 times more addictive and
powerful than heroin . The headline in the New York Times gives an indication
of how widespread the problem was: "Drugs Giants Close In on a
$50 billion Settlement of Opiod Crisis". That was Oct 16 2019.
The cabal consisted of 3 of the biggest wholesale drug distributors
along with Pharmceutical Co's Purdue and Johnson and Johnson.
Its not settled yet. However patients belief in the medical profession is
a major and complicated issue. They take for granted doctors are
acting in their(the Patients) best interests and the doctors know what
they are doing. Is that true? How often do they misdiagnose? And it was
stated by the chief researcher of Glaxo Smith Kline that "most of our
drugs do not work on most patients"!!! Just google that headline for the
full story. The term "most of out drugs" refers not just to GSK but the
entire drug Industry.? Anyone for herbal remedies?
Hi Pickle500,
Thanks for the post. Just to add to the above, and is based on anecdotal evidence - pre-diagnosis of ANY illness patients suffer from depression. (I am aware quite a lot of the community have other illnesses and conditions. Autoimmune diseases tend to come in pairs.)
This is because we feel physically awful but have no explanation. Once the right tests/ procedures have been performed, generally there is more acceptance. Then there’s a period of learning and understanding about your condition.
However, in PA/vitamin B12 deficiency, life can be pretty difficult due to lack of knowledge in medical profession.
A really good point made, an important one. There is also a period of having to accept that you may not ever be as you were before - and I found that realisation quite a challenge.
It is not so much the lack of knowledge in the profession that ever got to me, quite as much as the refusal to acknowledge the lack of knowledge. You can only learn what you are taught after all, and I really wouldn't blame anyone who sloped off the afternoon that the Vitamins lecture took place.
Life can be made even more difficult by those in the profession who cannot comprehend why so many people decide to self inject any substance that is not addictive - and so warn us that B12 is "highly addictive". You'd expect more from a haematology department in a major hospital, especially if you had waited months for the appointment, wouldn't you ?
Bit ironic that, Ritchie1268 !
So glad you got yourself back out of that.
What you are doing, using your own experiences to inform and support others -
now that's real teaching. A better world to live in.
For most medical professionals ? By and large: "could do better" sums it up .
Thank you.
I also use it as an opportunity to make sure GP's are aware of how substances, including certain prescribed drugs deplete essential vitamins and minerals, particularly B12, and make them aware of the many battles patients face regarding treatment.
Win win 👍
Yes - for all of us.
Thanks for your all thoughts on this.
I personally believe it's not a simple matter to remedy with one approach. But our medical system cannot entertain complex or multi-system issues.
When I first went to the GP for what was first B12D symptoms, I was asked if I'd been very stressed. Despite having had stomach pains, colonoscopy, a salivary gland tumour and an indeterminate thyroid nodule.
And yes, I had been stressed. But the remedy wasn't 'signing me off work' or 'testing me for diabetes' which were offered.
What followed was a year of depression, irritability, warped thinking. All from B12 deficiency.
So maybe now if they're thinkung twice about giving anti-depressants they'll replace it with considering low B12.
Certainly depression can be caused by life events. But diet, sleep, exercise, lifestyle factors are routinely ignored. And they may well be the answer.
And how terribly sad, that having got so far as asking about stress, he didn't think 'check B12'. My grandmother's sudden deterioration and PA diagnosis and my father's worst B12D symptoms came hot on the heels of deaths of loved ones after prolonged illnesses. Stress caused my own to drop hard, even with supplementation.
Thank you. Yes, I can't really put it down to a single thing apart from a year or so of multiple stressors.
But I also never really thought about needing more B vitamins during times of stress. But sounded like you did at least?
The sort of irony is that B vitamins will promote serotonin levels. So I think if a blood panel for B vitamins is done when someone reports depression, Drs could at least review it or consider other issues.
Such a gap in the system that seems to be letting us all down.
So many gaps....
To be honest, it only dawned much later when doing a lot of B12 reading and thinking about stress on the body in its widest sense and all of the nutrients that can be depleted (including by food intolerances, illness, medication, vaccination - Dad had just been hit hard again). Because the family problem seems to be genetic, cellular, likely methionine, serum looks 'fine' although symptomatic, worsening as serum drops in range, but always in range. Had it been a frank deficiency with low serum, Grandma's excellent GP would have found it, as her mother, aunt and uncle and their mother all ended up with PA, so it wasn't exactly a surprise. B2 and B6 as well as magnesium and zinc also especially prone to being stress-hit. Cheers
My anxiety and brain fog went after surgery To treat primary hyperparathyroidism and hypercalcemia. My blood calcium was too high.
So relieved to hear it….really relieved. Particularly since the mental health field is so astonishingly ignorant of physical changes brought about by disease.
I had the grave misfortune of not having my neurological status checked properly when I first had neurological symptoms of PA and was put on Olanzapine. 3 years later still losing consciousness, having walking and other difficulties I still wasn’t believed until I changed practice and ‘the sighs’ was recognised and b12 given but only every 3 months. Fast forward another 6 years and finally i get to see a neurologist this month who wants the provenance of the diagnosis but the GPs having lost all my records can’t provide it. Like others on this group a GP receptionist refused my request to make my normal 2 month b12 appointment saying that everyone is on 3 months. Devastated really by all this and then find this article about Olanzapine which I was on until my symptoms were controlled entirely by B12 injections: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl.... Given that PA causes brain damage it’s devastating to find that the wrong medication applied also does. Huge medical mistake that has had extensive consequences and absolutely no apologies from NHS.
Thanks for sharing this. What a painful and unnecessary ordeal you've had to go through. The NHS do seem to get away with not taking any accountability for these issues. Everything is denied and brushed aside if they fear any wrongdoing.
It does seem bonkers that so many people clearly have B12 or B vitamin problems yet it's all diminished or considered unlikely that vitamins would have such an impact.
But if you think about the car analogy, when there isn't enough oil, the engine stops working properly doesn't it? And pieces of the car start to fall off. But all that's needed is more oil. A simple case of extra oil - not a new part, or new tires. Just more oil. So simple, really.
Also see that the University of Reading now suggest B6 can help with anxiety and depression. reading.ac.uk/news/2022/Res.... And that taking supplements with therapy could be an effective route out of depression.
...they are diminishing the impact of B12. Which they would do.
But it is another step in the right direction.
How many drug errors are made in the NHS annually?237 million, that's two hundred and thirty seven million
and with what consequences? Claims of as many as
20,000 deaths as a result!. But can we be sure they
have counted all the bodies. It has been acknowledged
that medical treatment is one of the leading causes
of death? Not just in the UK but in the US as well.
Antibiotics are causing huge problems. Killing the
good and the bad bacteria, is that really a good idea?
what started out as a good idea is morphing into
a nightmare. Unbalance flora ,and yeast infections
can ensue which are often difficult to deal with
and the drugs used to treat are risky come with
their own side effects? Doctors handing them out
like sweets, poor decision making.
I've always had skepticism since I saw my sister go through major depression growing up and the meds completely warped her personality. I'm not really sure there's much left of who she was.
That view has cause problems in and of itself over the years, but my belief is that the medical system in the UK is only helpful if you're about to die. If that's the case, they'll do everything they can to save you.
But if you have any other conditions or generalised health problems with no particular cause or identified reason, you'll get a medication to treat the symptoms without investigating the cause. And that's because there's so many of us to see and not enough time to assess us.
But this is an illogical way to treat medical issues.
How will we know if a treatment is going to be effective if we're unclear of the root cause?
We won't. But we can stack the odds and do our best.
If your house has subsidence, you can treat the cause by filling in the cracks. You'll reduce the unsightly look of it and stop any leakages. But until you work out that your neighbours tree is uprooting the structure of your abode, the cracks will keep coming. And your house may just fall down before you spot the issue.
This is the gap we're missing. And the system has to change, otherwise we'll all keep getting sick and probably sicker.
It's something many modern 'Rockstar GPs' are advocating - Dr Rangan Chatterjee for example. He says that lifestyle medicine is the best way to treat patients but Doctors don't know enough or aren't confident to prescribe sleep, diet, or stress reduction (apart from signing you off work).
Maybe now, with a shifting focus on vitamins, we're getting a step closer to it. For the sake of all the lives lost, let's hope so.
Please note; the finding that depressed patients are not deficient in serotonin does NOT mean that SSRI anti depressants don't work !They saved my life.
I and family members on my father's side have a tendency towards endogenous depression, ie not caused by external issues such as trauma, unhappy circumstances, etc.
We all suffered until SSRI 's became widely prescribed.
I had been previously been given several of the older types of antidepressant - none worked.
When the doctor suggested trying SSRI 's I was initially totally sceptical and reluctant, therefore the transformation they brought cannot have been a placebo effect.
I agree that patients suffering depression should have a complete medical 'work up' including B12. However in my case, my B12 deficiency came from my mother's side of the family, not my father's side where the depression lurks.
Also note; so many of us here have B12 deficiency with normal blood levels of B12.
Who's to say that you can't similarly be deficient in serotonin with normal serum levels ??
I agree that busy doctors do tend to dish out anti depressants when they don't have time to get to the root cause of some peoples depression but sometimes there is no obvious 'cause ' of depression.
The doctor who has published this finding is a well known sceptic of pharmaceutical treatments for depression, she is a passionate advocate of CBT and other 'talking therapies ' which are of no use if your life is otherwise going perfectly well.
I think the current vilification of antidepressants is unwarranted and dangerous.
I have been off and on them a few times over many years, usually with gaps of several years between , so no, I am not 'addicted ' and with appropriate management patients can come off these drugs if no longer required.
For many, including me, these have been life savers and allowed us to live a normal life !
Thanks for contributing. Thats a very interesting and valid case.
I did notice that B6 is partly responsible for powering serotonin levels, and is now being recommend for depression by University of Reading.
So could it be that endogenous depression is linked to a vitamin B6 processing issue?
Like IF is to PA and B12D?
Running a vitamin blood panel could reveal some insights before prescribing?
The question maybe is then would B6 be as effective as SSRIs?
There's no definitive answer. But if Drs ran blood tests for B vitamins more often it could help guide diagnosis before prescription where its not related to serotonin or simply a propensity?
For example some people are just more sensitive than others. And they need more self care - sleep, nutrition, time alone - than others to be OK? Perhaps they need more vitamins to manage depression levels as a result?
I agree, just as with B12 there is so much connected to vitamins which is not understood or that is yet to be discovered. Until then, SSRIs are a therapy which actually works for most patients with true depression.
There are a lot of horror stories out there because of patients use of antidepressants not being correctly managed by some doctors, as always, these are the experiences that make the headlines. The majority of patients have no issues with SSRIs
Fed up of not being listened to by GP!
Is there a link between b12 deficiency and Fibromyalgia?
H Pylori link with B12?
