New here. Trying to help daughter and 6 month old grandchild.

[Familymatters]

Hi, I’m new to this forum and B12 deficiency so would appreciate any advice that can be offered. My 28yr old daughter had her first child in June of last year. Since then she has had intermittent tinnitus and parathesis. She has a low BMI and has always found it difficult to gain weight, she eats a healthy diet which does include some animal products, but no dairy, She also cannot tolerate gluten, but is not coeliac. Her 6 month old is doing well and is still solely breast fed ( so not getting any other source of B12). Here is my concern, I feel my daughter may be deficient in B12 and already having neurological symptoms. I am worried that her child although thriving currently will also be affected by this. She had a serum B12 taken before she was pregnant and it was in the low 400s and had a low Hb during pregnancy which she was given supplements for and never retested. I have discussed my concerns with her and 3 days ago she started taking oral supplements of viridian high twelve B complex (250ug methyl). I am worried this may not be enough, as I have read that Nitrous oxide produces irreversible oxidation and renders B12 inactive. I also wondered if it is safe to supplement babies and if so which form/ brand is best. Thank you for your time.

[Gambit62 Administrator]

a) studies imply that B12 supply to foetus/neo-nates is prioritised during pregnancy and breast feeding.

b) it is quite natural for B12 levels to plummet during the 2nd and 3rd trimester of pregnancy, and to remain lower than normal during breast feeding.

c) 400 is actually well into the normal range for B12 so not suggestive of a B12 deficiency - though it is possible to be deficient at these levels.

d) you don't give the units or quoted normal range for the serum B12 test - there are two units that can be used - though in either case it doesn't change the comment in c)

e) tests to clarify if B12 deficiency is really an issue would be MMA and homocysteine

f) if your daughter doesn't have an absorption problem (or a genetic problem affecting how efficiently she processes B12 - something that would have meant symptoms from an early age) then the tablets are more than enough to correct a deficiency - the usual dose for dietary deficiency is 50mcg. Larger doses don't actually seem to be more effective as the mechanism for absorbing B12 has quite a limited capacity. Mega doses can result in more being absorbed through passive absorption - which may not necessarily be a good thing in someone who doesn't have an absorption problem

g) recommendation, if you think there is an absorption problem, is not to supplement as supplementation can make interpreting blood test results extremely difficult and lead to an absorption problem being masked.

h) the symptoms you mention are a long way from being unique to B12 - could also come from iron deficiency and a number of other things.

Although PA, the most common cause of B12 deficiency can affect iron absorption, there are numerous things that could have caused the low haemoglobin levels that would be totally unrelated to any problems with B12. Suggest you discuss with your daughters GP.

i) ask for a referal to a neurologist in relation to the paresthesia - particularly if review of blood tests doesn't show a recurrence of problems with iron levels.

[Foggyme Administrator]

Hi Familymatters....what Gambit62 says and...

I'd suggest that as granddaughter is solely breast feeding, it would be advisable for your daughter to speak to her midwife and/or GP before taking the high dose B complex.

Some of these high dose B complex supplements contains excessively large doses of some vitamins and minerals - sometimes over 300% of the RDA...vitamin B6, in particular, can be neurotoxic in high doses (and especially if it's not needed).

So...there's a potential that your daughter might be inadvertently over-supplementing if she doesn't have a proven deficiency and...

No idea how much is passed over in breast milk...but certainly best to discuss this with a medical professional before proceeding further with any form of supplements.

Please post again if you need any more advice or support.

Good luck to you all and congratulations on having a new granddaughter.

[LynneG]

Hi Familymatters, I toally appreciate your concerns and with you on this. My grandson is now 15 months, my daughter inlaw not well since his birth. Has your daughter had or could she ask for a thyroid blood test. GP's tend to just measure TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone - a hormone produced if the brain detects lack of thyroid hormone) which is not good practice in my opinion however it's what they do and results may indicate that the more comprehensive tests are then needed. If not and the GP is not concerned enough to test further, I would have a comprehensive Thyroid panel private test (online Blue Horizon, or Medichecks are 2 - not unreasonable costs and often have offers on - finger prick test or with medichecks you can go to one of their approved NHS hospitals for the blood draw from the arm for an extra charge of £25. Our local hospital was on Medichecks list. My daughter inlaw did the finger prick test but a friend of mine just couldnt, get enough blood from the finger/s to fill the little phial provided- it is not that easy and so then phoned the company and she paid extra for the hospital to draw. The hospital nurse in the blood dept was fine she said as all indstructions and test tubes labelling etc is provided in the kit and the hospital know they are getting paid for it. And it is still postal so the nurse hands you everything back to post just as you would post off the finger prick sample. In the blood test depts (phlebotamy dept) in hospitals you dont need an appointment, you just turn up but always better to go early morning/fasting test. similarly with finger prick test. Many many women develop post partum thyroid issues. My daughter inlaw was lucky that it was spotted. She was having slight dizzy spells and mentioned to the GP at check up. Her GP did go on to test comprehensively following the TSH test and she had referral to an Endocrinologist. You may ask why did she need the private test! Thyroid care is notoriously poor in mainstream/NHS in many functional doctors opinion. People/patients take responsibility and learn which is why afterall, the private testing online companies are in business, they wouldn't be if people didn't feel the need to use. I most certainly believe most post partum thyroid issues are caused by antibody attack on the thyroid (Hashimotos) It is necessary to measure antibodies in blood test the main 2 are absolutely necessary TPO ab (antibodies) and TG ab there is also a thyroid receptor antibody (less common test) and prob others. 90% of Thyroid issues are infact caused by antibodies so Hashimotos. Your daughters GP may not have even thought of thyroid issues at post natal checks because she is not overweight. Which has no bearing but it is how they often think. Thyroid hormone is your body's energy supply, the petrol in your tank and so symptoms are similar to B12 deficiency / can also run in tandom. If Hashimotos antibodies will be high, and too much thyroid hormone will be produced and found in the blood (hyperthyroid) which will fluctuate to too little (hypothyroid) as the thyroid continues to be attacked. Imagine this fluctuation in hormone Up and Down is a nightmare. Often responsible for post partum depression, lethargy , no energy , tired all the time or totally wired , stressed, hyperactive and everything else that goes with this. You will find symptom lists online for hyperthroid and hypothyroid you can just have one symptom not all of them or none that are recogniseable at all - you have spotted things aren't quite right - thats enough. Have her tested for antibodies Google Isabella Wentz Hashimotos, Suzy Cohen Hashimotos, Dr Amy Myers Hashimotos - look at you tube videos of theirs and you will get plenty of info to move forward if you want more guidance (Dr Myers has written several books. Just check, to rule out your concerns. Also join the Healthunlocked Thyroid group. Obviously your daughter could just be so depleted in nutrients as would be expected. A really nutritious diet which should never be low fat (as we spent all our young lives since the 70's being told by govt agencies that low fat was necessary for health - this has been totally disproved by science - see British GP/cardiology specialist Dr Malcolm Kendrick's book : The Great Cholesterol Con written in 2007 and they are still flogging us margarine and inflammation causing bottled oils !) Breast milk is really high in cholesterol and fat - maybe that could be because the baby needs it/ and absolutely essential for life for us adults too. So your daughter needs high saturated fat (natural fat containing fat soluble vitamins Vit D, A, E, and K2 and not chemically refined toxic seed oils that provide free radical damage to cells) my daughter inlaw had to stop breast feeding at 3 months unfortunately - I was horrified that they remove natural fat from the cows milk that they make the formula with (skimmed milk) and then replace with the polyunsaturated chemically refined toxic oils - I give up!! And that was the most expensive organic formula they could obtain. Maybe she is really low in vitamin D - many issues arise from low vit D - your grandchild deperately needs it too from mum if feeding. See Grassroots Vitamin D Research Council, They conduct research studies particularly with pregnant and nursing mums and outcomes. They have so many research findings re the vit D supplementation a pregnant and nursing mum should provide for her foetus and through her milk and its not the inadequate 400iu in pregnancy vitamins. NHS Blood test normal level of vit D is shockingly low. The NHS upper blood level of 125nmol is too low if have stress on system so require more eg health issues/nursing. The vitamin D Research Council is in the US their measurement of vit D is in ng so you have to convert to UK nmol measurement. So 50 - 70 ng recommendation is equal to 2.5 times so 125 - 175nmol.

I have emailed the Research council for advise on amounts of supplementation for my daughter inlaw when pregnant/ nursing and then for Harry when no longer breast feeding. They always replied with advice and specific recommendations.

Harry also had probiotics (cocobiotic liquid also see microbz for adults and there is a formula for babies/children also liquid) from just a few days old (because born emergency cesarean and so did not come through the birth canal so crucial for seeding his microbiome) The health of your daughters microbiome is crucial for her baby's health as well as her own. A good idea if your daughter has any issues or not to take a good fermented mineral probiotic like Uk company's Microbz Bio Dark Live - see their website.

Scientific research - your gut microbiome that is your gut bugs and organisms are fundemental to your health including mental health: gut brain connection. For example the majority of your serotonin (happy neurotransmitter for brain health) is produced in the gut not the brain. So she could feed her microbiome for health and try and avoid antibiotics if at all possible which decimates them as do all meds.

An extra note. The japanese min B12 blood level is 500 their normal range is 500 -1300. Different countries/ different normal ranges (basically made up on averages) you don't want average you want optimal. Dr Amen psychiatist - now nutritional psychiatrist states 'when it comes to B12 you don't want to be on the bottom table but top of the class so that according to the Japanese would be 1300 and the Japanese have the lowest heart disease and alzheimers risk - says it all. Brilliant book for women brain health - heals issues nutritionally including the top US football teams who suffer brain issues from their sport

Butter is often found to be ok if not eating Dairy as mostly just fat (obviously needs to be grass fed herds providing - I buy Guernsey butter from Waitrose or unpasteurised grass fed French D'isigny butter also from Waitrose. Or Ghee which is clarified butter so rarely contains any caesin proteins or lactose. If not possible loads of cold pressed extra virgin Organic olive oil don't heat tho (is monounsaturated) and coconut oil (saturated) do cook with. And avocados and free range duck eggs (people who usually get allergies from eggs are because they use hens eggs in vaccines, so duck eggs are not usually a risk.

Will need to take vitamin K2 if not getting fat from dairy - unless willing to eat Japanese fermented Natto. I use PureNature K2 British company (I have spoken to the makers - def gluten GMO free. Bacteria make K2 which is why it is in fermented fat of dairy such as certain cheeses or fermented vegetables. We need vit K2 because it is the co factor that switches on the enzyme that ensures calcium is deposited in the skeleton and teeth and not soft tissue - see Kate Rheume Bleue's book /youtube video. The Calcium Paradox - the litle known Vitamin that could save your life. Essential for everyone but even more so if taking vit D because D enables effective calcium absorption

I will post 2 videos from Dr Hollis researcher on vit D for more than 30yrs. One re dosing, 4 mins into the video there is a diagram - look at the thick arrow - which describes why you need vit D everyday from sun or supplement for immune and organ/brain health as unbound diffused vit D disappears after 24hrs. The other video is specifically research for pregnancy /nursing requirements. youtube.com/watch?v=FbheaUL...(Not working as expected?)

[LynneG]

Video, Familymatters Pregnancy /Nursing requirements per Dr Hollis Research youtube.com/watch?time_cont...