is there another route to PA rather than stomach defect in the absorption route.

after my op end Jun2015 I had problems wandering to my right and low energy physically and brain. Eventually found I had low Haemoglobin and low b12. As Dr unable to prescribe B12 IV I broke my vegan diet and ate liver twice weekly and restored my B12 from 190 to 560 in three weeks. For my second op, begun Oct2015 the Anaesthetist cooperated in adjusting my GA and I had no problems after the op. I await the second visit to Haemo and thereafter to Neuro. Please comment on the HEADER.

Secondly I am trying Multi vit and tried MAGNESIUM OIL SKIN SPRAY but experienced constipation. I am aware the MAG is a laxative. So what mechanism can explain this assuming the SPRAY OIL MAG is okay. Thank you @Dulaigh

[Gambit62 Administrator]

I am assuming that you mean B12 deficiency rather than PA as PA is an absorption problem that leads to B12 deficiency

Being a vegan would mean that you probably aren't getting enough B12 from your diet unless you were supplementing/using fortified cereals.

There are so many things that could cause constipation that I can't offer anything sensible in relation to your second question

[Hidden in reply to Gambit62]

Thanks @gambit62. Understood mine B12 deficiency now.

[illnesswhatillness]

There are others . Nitrous oxide gas switches off vitamin b12 synthesis which can be permanently causing pernicious anemia . Used over several generations this can cause babies to be born with inborn errors of metabolism . Nitrous oxide was first isolated in 1772 so that`s quite a few generations but it also means that defective medicine has been used on patients and with the addition of lots of vitamin b12 lowering pharma drugs used over several generations such as proton pump inhibitors anti biotics metformin pain killers vaccines mefenamic acid anti depressants antacids and a host of others this has not been helpful to patients and means that doctors have been using defective medicines which is not legal . There are a few tricks which can help get b12 levels up . Beetroot contains cobalt . Fermented foods such as Korean Kim Chi produce active vitamin b12 . Try crushing a methylcobalamin pill into a full fat unsugared natural yoghurt and leave it overnight to ferment at room temperature then eat it next day .

[Marz in reply to illnesswhatillness]

Wow - would like to know more about crushing B12 pills into natural yoghurt - I live in Crete and eat Sheeps Yogurt - and occasionally goats. I have weekly b12 injections but also top up with Methyl lozenges.

[illnesswhatillness in reply to Marz]

Hi Marz in sunny Crete ! When you put the methylcobalamin into full fat natural unsugared yoghurt it starts to ferment and after you have left it overnight at room temperature you should see some little tiny bubbles here and there which is the fermentation . This process increases the level of b12 . Bladderwrack seaweed is worth trying and so is beetroot ( it contains cobalt ) . Korean Kim chi is a fermented cabbage dish made with spices and is loaded with b12 . Give these things a try and let me know what you think . Good wishes

[fbirder in reply to illnesswhatillness]

This process increases the level of b12

Nonsense. Pure poppycock.

Korean Kim chi is a fermented cabbage dish made with spices and is loaded with b12

No it isn't. From - koreamed.org/SearchBasic.ph...

Commercial Kimchi, a representative Korean vegetable- fermented food, made of Korean cabbage, Yeolmu, or Mustard leaves contained 0.013-0.03 microgram vitamin B12/100 g

So to get the same amount of B12 as in a single 1000 ug tablet you would need to eat - over three tons of kimchi!

I think I'll stick with the pills.

[illnesswhatillness in reply to fbirder]

oh stop pecking ! you sound obsessive about anything I post for some reason . If you are going to say nothing but self defeating negative stuff then don`t comment . The fact is that supplementing is great . I get a donated bottle from Dr Chandy and self inject but eating food which contains b12 each day is useful and it so happens that Sally from B12 Awareness also wrote about ways of using food to supplement so don`t condescend to me - argue with all the experts instead .

[fbirder in reply to illnesswhatillness]

I shall stop 'picking' when you stop posting stuff that is, at best misleading.

Did I say that eating B12-rich foods is a bad idea? No. Did I point out that kimchi is not a B12-rich food? Yes.

If that upsets you then I suggest you try getting your facts correct.

This forum depends on being able to trust the information found therein. People posting grossly incorrect information does not help anybody.

[Hillwoman in reply to fbirder]

Last time I checked, this was still a forum. If you disagree with what a member writes, it is possible to do so without being so negative and condescending.

[Hidden in reply to illnesswhatillness]

Thanks illnesswhatillness I was Diabetic II 1993 till 2014 when I had an unexplained weight loss of 2 stones; 13 to 11 stone losing 21lbs in under 30 days and losing my diabetes ! also lost allergies and addictions. Gave up my Diabetes Pills including ramiprill and metformin. I am now trying Sauerkraut so will try your remedy. Thanks

[fbirder in reply to illnesswhatillness]

Nitrous oxide gas switches off vitamin b12 synthesis which can be permanently causing pernicious anemia .

No, and No.

1. humans can't synthesize B12, so nitrous oxide can't 'switch off' the synthesis. Humans have to obtain their B12 in their diet - already synthesised. Nitrous oxide does mop up any B12 in the body, causing a temporary deficiency.

2, Even if B12 could 'switch off B12 synthesis' it wouldn't cause PA. PA is a specific absorption problem caused by Autoimmune Metaplastic Gastric Atrophy.

And another No.

So what if beetroot contains cobalt. Because humans can't synthesize B12 they couldn't make use of any cobalt it does contain. I've just had a look and the number of web sites making the claim that beetroot is good for anaemia - because it contains cobalt is unbelievable.

And a WT.....?

How, pray tell, is the fermentation process going to do anything other than destroy any B12 that was already present?

[illnesswhatillness in reply to fbirder]

www2.pedsanesthesia.org/mee...

[illnesswhatillness in reply to fbirder]

the body does not make b12 - it uses it from food but it has to convert it and if it can`t because of either MTHFR gene mutation / pernicious anaemia / lack of intrinsic factor etc it becomes a problem . Nitrous oxide gas switches off the body`s ability to synthesise or use up the b12 it has . When people get cancer the body dumps iron to stop it helping the cancer to grow and b12 levels rise .

[fbirder in reply to illnesswhatillness]

No, no and thrice no.

Of of the three things you mention, MTHFR, Pernicious Anaemia and Intrinsic Factor only the first has any part to play in the conversion of B12 from one form to another - and it's an indirect part.

The other two play no part whatsoever.

You start of by saying "the body does not make B12" then you say "nitrous oxide gas switches off the body's ability to synthesise....B12”. Obviously the word 'synthesise' doesn't mean what you think it means.

[illnesswhatillness in reply to fbirder]

It was you who said humans can`t synthesise b12 so do some reading instead of bandying words with me . The truth is that when several generations have had nitrous oxide which is a gas the American Vetenary Association says is unsuitable for use on mammals people get born with inborn errors of metabolism . Do you know much about the last war or the holocaust ?

[fbirder in reply to illnesswhatillness]

It was you who said humans can`t synthesise b12

It was, indeed.

Then you said "the body does not make b12 - it uses it from food"

[illnesswhatillness in reply to fbirder]

whfoods.com/genpage.php?tna...

[illnesswhatillness in reply to fbirder]

I did indeed . You must have OCD to spend your time arguing over an `e ` on the end of the word synthesis . Blackstrap molasses is good for OCD which is an iron deficiency symptom but its not a big pharma big seller is it so I suppose you might dismiss that too as there`s no money in it .

[helvella in reply to illnesswhatillness]

I fail to see anyone arguing about the presence or absence of an e after "synthesis".

Blackstrap molasses is being promoted by, umm, blackstrap molasses producers and vendors. Time and again some vested interest manages to push their product and ensure that it is picked up as the latest, greatest health product. We have seen green tea, goji berries, kale, and numerous other foods promoted over the recent years - and goodness how many other substances over the decades.

[illnesswhatillness in reply to fbirder]

healthyeating.sfgate.com/fe...

[illnesswhatillness in reply to fbirder]

Vitamin b12 `s job to is maintain RNA and DNA so if you use nitrous oxide gas and vitamin b12 lowering pharma drugs over several generation you create genetic mutations . Nitrous oxide gas can cause atrophy as can forceps ( optic nerve atrophy ) .

[fbirder in reply to illnesswhatillness]

Nope.

One of the many things that B12 is involved in is the synthesis of DNA. It has nothing at all to do with the maintenance of DNA.

[illnesswhatillness in reply to fbirder]

Have you ever heard of b12d.org ?

[helvella in reply to illnesswhatillness]

As I read your response, you imply that forceps, by causing optic nerve atrophy in one generation, make the next generation more likely to suffer from optic nerve atrophy.

I struggle with that at every level.

It is funny how little people talk of Jean-Baptiste Lamarck and Paul Kammerer these days.

[illnesswhatillness in reply to helvella]

you assume too much then . I was referring to atrophy and types of atrophy and causes . It`s funny how little people talk of Einstein and Freud these days .

[helvella in reply to illnesswhatillness]

Obviously something to do with the company you keep. Regularly talked about round here.

[Sleepybunny]

Did you have nitrous oxide during your operation? nitrous oxide can inactivate b12 in the body.

gov.uk/drug-safety-update/n...

There is a chapter in the book "Could It Be b12" by Sally Pacholok and JJ. Stuart about nitrous oxide and its effects on B12.

[Hidden in reply to Sleepybunny]

Sleepybunny The Anaesthetist did not say but the second op went fine with no repeats of the first. But I have continuing brain and neuro disorders. Thanks

[Gambit62 Administrator in reply to Hidden]

Short of getting hold of your medical records there is no way of knowing for sure that nitrous oxide has been used as an anaesthetic. If your B12 status was know for the second operation then the anaestetist would have avoided using nitrous oxide as it is known to inactivate B12 so any B12 you have can't be used by the various processes in the body that use it. It may be that it was used in your first operation and contributed to things getting worse because it suddenly deactivated all of your B12 without your body having any ability to replace it by absorbing unaffected B12 from your food.

I would be wary of assuming that being a vegan means that you don't have an absorption problem. There can be more than one thing going on. If your symptoms continue once you have been on supplements for a while that would imply that there really is more than one thing going on

The whole thing about some forms of vegetable matter and fermented products being rich in B12, which slightly seems to have hijacked this post, has been around for years. Nobody yet seems to have discovered a creditable source and the vegan society in the US warns against such claims. The Vegetarian Society in the UK is, similarly wary.

vegansociety.com/resources/...

there is also this article from the UK Vegetarian society

vegsoc.org/B12

particularly noteworth is:

Fermented products such as tempeh and miso (obtained from fermented soya beans), shiitake mushrooms and algae (spirulina and nori) contain substances which are similar chemically to vitamin B12. However, they do not work in the body in the same way as the active vitamin so these foods cannot be relied upon as sources of vitamin B12.

[Polaris in reply to Sleepybunny]

You are right SB - there are many references to nitrous oxide depleting B12 in Sally Pacholok's book and, if I remember rightly, there was also a piece that Martyn Hooper wrote about the dangers of laughing gas?

It was actually my sister's condition after a dental appointment that made me suspect she was B12 deficient, and I distinctly remember reading that nitrous oxide inactivates B12 if your levels are already low.