I was diagnosed with osteoporosis one year ago: lumbar spine -4.6, hip -3.3, -3 5 respectively.
Today--at my request--I had a follow-up. I have basically been pharmaceutical drug-free, though, I did take about 9 doses of Fosamax at two different times, the last being in September. For reference, google tells me Fosamax might improve bone density from 4-6% over three years.
Otherwise, I tried to deal with root causes as much as possible, which for me--best we can see--is/has been "poor absorption". I was active "before" and I stayed active, but I've had so many injuries this year, I've struggled to do more than light weights. I did consistently use a vibration plate.
I've been more or less convinced that with bones as bad as mine, improvement without drugs would be nearly impossible. I had one doctor nearly swear at me, saying "absorption has nothing to do with bones, take the drugs, you fool!" (I would be on Evenity, but insurance denied it.) So really all I was hoping for was to just not be worse.
BUT! Guess what? My hip scores improved something like 3.6% (he showed me on his much more comprehensive screen, doesn't show on the results they sent me,) now -3.1, -3 4 respectively. That's great, I didn't have near the room for improvement, so I was pretty happy.
Then he went to my spine. I'm now at -3.9, a 14.6% improvement! I don't think even Evenity expects that much improvement in a year! Again, I did have a LOT of room for improvement, and I still have a ways to go to not be "severe". But this is super encouraging, particularly since I'd just as soon not take drugs if I can help it; I'm only 62, and there ARE considerations when you're looking at decades of drugs, versus a few years. It might not convince my endo I don't NEED them, but it might buy me some time to see what lifting heavy weights and maintaining my other improved habits can do for me.
Not saying don't take drugs. Am saying, try to address those root causes. I had no idea I had "gut issues", no idea that absorption affected bones (though, it makes sense; it's just my doctors never mentioned it.)
Whoop whoop!
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Delighted for you Josephinius. Can you share the steps you followed to improve your scores please ie supplements, exercise regime, dietary changes please?
It's definitely been hit or miss, and I'm still figuring it out, but the things that have stuck are:
1) 30 mg or more of boron daily, in the morning with food.
2) 20 minutes 3xs per week on the vibration plate (they say you want it at 30 hertz; I don't know what mine is, but it has 10 levels and the highest level didn't feel that much different from when I tried one at Osteostrong.) (I did not ultimately join Osteostrong; my husband just didn't believe it could work and $200 a month was spendy. But they claim 10-15% improvement in bone density over a year, too.)
3) Weight/strength training. I actually have had a ton of problems with my back this year--for sure, some fractures, but also just...can't move like I used to, whether it's due to being 3 inches shorter and how that's affected muscles, etc. I don't know. Either way, I have learned I need to be careful, so I'm doing the weights I do while I'm on the vibration platform, because it helps me not be crazy. It doesn't FEEL like "enough" but I also didn't want to lose too much ground while I was healing, so...probably within two weks of my last fracture, I was back at it. Yesterday my newly acquired physical therapist was all, "You're not strong enough for heavy weights yet!" so I didn't tell her I was doing this, even though the weights aren't that heavy--I am doing an overhead press with 20 pounds, and my guess is she'd be all "On a vibration plate? What are you, crazy?" (I already know she thinks vibration plates do nothing.) But honestly, all of it makes me feel better--loosens up the incredibly tight muscles in my back, and it didn't seem to impede healing. Did any of it help my bones? I don't know. It's just what I've been doing.
4) I walk every day for at least an hour, now wearing a weighted backpack and using trekking poles. The weight on my back IS supposed to help with the bones, but I only started doing it about two months ago. The trekking poles help me keep my upper back more upright, and helps loosen up those muscles, as well as helping me bear the backpack, and burn more calories (since I cannot run any more, or at least, not yet.) I never don't walk, even with an active injury. Again, is this smart? I don't know. I just know this condition practically grabs you around the neck and drags you to the recliner. (Stretched out in the recliner is when I'm most pain-free,) but I really believe we gotta keep moving as long as we're able. I have had times I walked like an 90 year old (at age 60, and previously a runner.) Okay--I was slow and it hurt, but if I hadn't done it, getting back to it would just get harder and harder.
4) I've started taking a powerful pre/probiotic supplement (something like...twice as many bugs as what the ones in the store say they have. (DOES it, really? I have no idea.) Just know tests showed I had am overabundance of bad bacteria and yeast, and if your body is dealing with things that aren't supposed to be there, it's going to shunt energy away from things like building bone.
5) Vit D--was taking 5000 iu, and my D level was still under 50. Either with improved absorption or taking it with cod liver oil, it jumped up to 117 in a matter of months. That was a bit high, so I dropped back to 2000 iu and I'm not taking it wi th cod liver oil because let's face it, it tastes like cod liver oil. But I know what to do if my D drops too low.
6) Vit K2 MK7. I just learned this week that 180 mg is where "fracture reduction" was noted, and most supplements come in either 90 or 100 mg. So now I'm taking 180.
7) Melatonin, because it does help me sleep, and supposedly it can have a positive effect on bones (or, sleep does, or both.)
8) Not taking calcium. It was confusing, and...yeah, I just decided to not do it.
9) I'm trying to avoid gluten, processed sugar, processed foods. I've never drunk much alcohol, and I'm still not.
10) Um...I did see a naturopath and though she's pretty "woo woo" I've taken the detox stuff she's told me my body told her it wanted. Maybe I AM dealing with less mercury now? (Supposedly I was pretty high in mercury, some other things.)
I think that's about it. Sorry for all the words, I just get a little scared telling people what I do without a billion qualifiers. 😅
Very Impressive ! I am suffering from vertebrae compression fractures and taking so long to heal! Like you the most comfortable place to be is my recliner, but do not want to lose more strength I my legs and back, so I keep walking even just around the house and I am hoping to get back to more exercises!
Thank you for your detailed reply Josephinius. That is certainly a very impressive regime. I have a lot of work to do! I am going to try and incorporate some of the steps you have outlined and hope for the best. I'm taking some supplements at present but will add some additional ones like boron. I walk daily for an hour and practice pilates but I will explore the vibration plate and perhaps consider a weighted vest. Best wishes.
Josephine has strontium citrate impacted on your thyroid at all? I take levothyroxine at present but am considering adding split doses of T3. I am just wondering how I would fit strontium citrate around this and my other supplements. Do you have any advice or experience of this please.
Actually, I don't. I just read that there are no known interactions, "but that doesn't mean they don't exist." I did end up having to increase my dose of levoxythyrone, but that's not necessarily atypical, periodically.
I’ve also had positive results without drugs! Gone from osteoporotic back to osteopaenic but still being advised to take drugs! Given time to make my decision!
My mom, at 83, has numbers in the osteopenic range now, too, but she's taken the drugs for decades. (She took fosamax every day for like 10 years! (It was new at the time, I guess that's what they told her to do.) Now she's on Prolia for the rest of her life. The woman must have a cast iron constitution. I don't know what her numbers were when she started, either. Still, you do hear of people who take the drugs, still fracture, numbers don't get better, maybe even get worse, so there are obviously a lot of factors, and expecting a drug to fix it all just doesn't make sense.
5 years ago I was -2.6 hip and -1.7 lumbar spine. Recent BMD -2.3 hip and -0.9 lumbar spine. No medication. Took plant based calcium, vit D and K2. Did Pilates, weights circuit twice a week at gym and Nordic pole walking.
Congratulations! That is great! I would definitely give it more time before taking drugs. Maybe next year your results will be even more improved! I think that taking appropriate vitamins, exercising and being very mindful in order to keep from falling are all steps that might be enough
This is amazing and encouraging! I am taking the same route. No drugs, only supplements, weight lifting and exercise. For over a year now. Next screening is in May, then we will see.
One other thing I did that I weirdly forgot I was doing until after I'd posted was boron. For all I know, that made the biggest difference. My sister-in-law turned me on to Jorge Flechas, who claims boron IS the magic pill. High doses of it, not this skimpy 3 mg to "maybe 12 mg is safe" business you see when you google it. He's talking 30mg, or even up to 150 mg. I have taken anywhere between 12 and 150, depending on what's on my shelf. Most supplements in stores come in at 3 mg, so when that's what I had, I took 4-5 of them. Now I've got a subscription for 30 mg capsules, so I take 2-3 of them most days. Supposedly it's mostly peed out anyway, so you can't really OD on it, which might then beg the question: why take more? I don't know the answer except maybe you hang onto a little more if you take more? To be honest, I skimmed the 40+ minute long videos she sent me, just kind of went for "just tell me what to do," and moved on. But supposedly there IS some solid research to support boron's role in bone metabolism, so it is a little strange to me that medical professionals don't suggest it. It certainly can't hurt. But when I told my (new) PCP I was taking it, he rolled hus eyes, looked heavenward, sighed, and said, "evidence-based" (you internet-obsessed moron!) (Is how I felt when he said it.) Well, I think I've got some evidence NOW.
Are you taking boron? Even the 30 mg capsules are relatively inexpensive; the 3 mgs come in at under $10. If this really IS what gave me a 14.6% improvement in my spine in just a year (less, really, more like 11 months,) which I think is about what Evenity claims over a year (after which point, it quits working/you plateau,) at $2500/month...well...you can do the math.
I too take boron 35 or 75 mg. I had found Jorge flechas a while back. None of my doctors will enlighten me on boron. In fact they blow me off. Unfortunately I got coerced into taking Prolia. Just finished my 3rd injection with side effects. I don’t want this anymore. Trying to figure a way off meds. I was seeing a rheumatologist and have now scheduled an appointments with an Endocrinologist from Mayo Clinic.
Glad you had positive results with boron.
I have a bone scan next Wednesday. I’m sure if there’s improvement rheumatologist will say it’s Prolia. The side effects of going off of it petrify me. I can only hope boron but d3 vit K with m7and eating/drinking my calcium will be beneficial .
Oh man, I feel your pain. The endocrinologist I've seen twice says Reclast for a few years, if I can't get Evenity, then Prolia for...at least ten, and he's all, even with that, I will likely always have severe osteoporosis. And I'm like, there's got to be a better way. Not to scare you, but sounds like you already know the horror stories, so I'll tell you anyway--my father-in-law had been on prolia, not even sure how bad his osteoporosis was, since it sounds like doctors prescribe these drugs as preventatives, but whatever--he was on it and doing fine, I guess, and his scans showed him back in the osteopenia range, so he told his doctor he wanted to quit, and his doctor said okay. Next thing you know, those supposedly stronger bones basically disintegrated. (He did step wrong off a ladder, gave himself a good jolt.) He lost 5-6 inches in height, is now stooped, and was in constant, unrelenting pain (until my husband told him you can't DO that, and he hor another dose of Prolia, which apparently did help his pain.) Granted, his doctor was stupid, anyone can easily know you can't just quit Prolia. But it's still scary to think your bones are supposedly healthier than when you started only really...they're not. So...godspeed on that one.
I hope you'll let us know what your Mayo Clinic endocrinologist says!
Crazy. I’m hoping the boron is countering the negative effects. Hoping the endocrinologist will give a better outlook. If I have to do foismax for a two years to get past the rebound fracture period I might have however I don’t want to.
Anyone heard of acupuncture to help with osteoporosis?
I notice on the nutrition information for the boron in the green calcium I take it’s 24 mcg per serving. I can’t fully understand the comparison of mcg and mg?
That’s an amazing result. How did you identify the gut issues and deal with them? I’m in a similar position and think I may need to bite the bullet and pay for a functional doctor to tell me the way forward. Hope your progress continues.
I did see a functional medicine doctor first; decided there was no point in treating the symptom without understanding, as best as possible, the cause. Whether I picked the best one or not, she did have me do a lot of tests I wouldn't have gotten elsewhere, including the "metabolomix" test. That's the one that supposedly showed things like levels of various vitamins, (not sure anyone had ever tested me for B vitamin deficiencies; not sure I was aware it was possible to BE deficient in B vitamins gut bacteria, yeast, cortisol, etc. Was this the best test, is it accurate? I have no way of knowing, but when you think about it, 99% of everything is taken on faith. In any event, anything that could be high or low that would affect absorption of nutrients, I was there. The test also gave suggestions of how to address it, so...I jumped on them if there was any way to do it. I also did an elimination diet, just to see, because I'd never had symptoms I read as indicative of gut problems. I still can't say any one food group or item obviously affects me, but I've nonetheless tried to avoid gluten, processed sugar/foods, just because they seem to be implicated in a lot of things, and I really do want to get better, so.... Thanks for asking and good luck!
Thanks for replying. That sounds like a good way forward. I am aware that having gut issues (I have leaky gut and consequently some autoimmune conditions) means that I don’t absorb nutrients from my food so have to take so many supplements that I rattle and try to eat fermented things several times a day. Not absorbing much calcium over twenty or so years would be part of the reason for the osteopenia.
Well, I heard conflicting advice. First was 30 minutes, 3 times per week, so I did rgat for several weeks. Then it was, no, that's too much! 15 minutes (I think) 3 times per week, AND you have to step off for a minute every other minute. It's weird to step off and on a vibrating platform, but I did compromise on time, dropped it to 20 minutes, 3 times per week. I honestly don't know what hertz my unit operates at: iit has ten speeds, plus a random option. The highest rate of speed didn't feel that different from the "30 hertz" platform I tried at Osteostrong, so since the hughest speed was what I was used to, that's what I did. I also did my strength training on thr platform, for three reasons: 1) Two birds with one stone; 2) One triggered the other, helped me remember to do both; 3) I have had to be careful about how I move (did some damage early on in this journey with workout videos,) and there's only so much I CAN do on a small vibrating platform. I do intend to step my weights-game up, but there were times I didn't want to heft a weight at all, so this helped keep me at it.
It may be here somewhere...but what brand of vibration plate do you have? I find this fascinating, such a little movement, for good gains. I have 10 fractures, 8 discs that are in stages of rupturing, 4 fusions. Parathyroid tumor got me to this stage of life at 62...I'm on Tymlos, 9 months, surgeon viewing my vertebrae says they are looking better...now how to keep it.
Yikes! That sounds brutally painful! I couldn't say whether a vibration plate would be safe for you...I have been assured that my back actually looks pretty good, better than what my age might suggest would be normal. Course this is a physiatrist who sees people with back injuries...then again, who even gets their back examined unless there's something wrong with it? Anyway, as far as I know, I have no contraindications with respect to vibration. And yes, apparently you can do big, impactful things like jumping from your desk a few times per day, or you can do a lot of little things, which the vibration plate wil do for us.
Mine is called "MaxBurn" (I guess--a British lady says that when you turn it on,) and I know next to nothing about it. I know/have heard that 30 hertz is the target...speed/magnitude(?) and I have no idea what each of the ten speeds mine has equates to. Have looked at the website but found no info. So I wouldn't necessarily recommend mine; then again, it was less expensive (I bought it about eight years ago,)than some and it's very sturdy--has performed reliably, and if one bought it today it would probably have a manual that would give the pertinent info.
I guess the MaxBurn Pro oscillates as opposed to vibrates. Supposedly this means it activates more muscles as it's harder to balance on it, but is gentler on joints--safer for "older adults". That was totally accidental on my part, as I had done no research whatsoever. It was an impulse buy at a vendor fair associated with a running event. But, though I still have no idea of the hertz options, (I get a sense the oscillations aren't as strong, in some respects, as vibrations, so my using it on level 10 might not be too much of an overshot?) I still feel like it was a fortuitous purchase.
That's great. It's nice to hear something positive. I would like to hear more about how you accomplish your results. My only question is on your bone scan, did the technician that did your scan position your spine and hip the same way as your prior. Bone scan results can change depending on if the positioning was not the same as the prior. Hope this is not the case.🌷
I am 65. I knew I had osteoporosis years ago when I was 48. I had my ovaries out then and was told to take fosamax. I chose not to. I did break my wrist and decided to go to the Mayo Clinic to see an endocrinologist. My dexa scores were horrible. Spine -5, left neck, -3.2, right neck, 3.7. I decided to go on Reclast because my insurance would not approve Tymlos, which is what she recommended. I was surprised when I had my scores improve by 11%. Spine -3.6, left neck -3.1 and right neck -3.5. The scores still aren’t great so I’m on reclast again this year because I heard you can have a total improvement of 22%. We will see. Unfortunately my lower back has been sore lately so I’m going in for an X-ray. I hope it’s not a fracture, but I guess I will find out. My endo wants me on Tymlos, so that will be my 3rd year solution.
Wow, that's HUGE improvement in your spine! Well played! I'm starting to deduce (from very limited info,) that the worse your spine is--maybe, in particular?--the greater your chance of significant improvement? Isn't -5 to -3.6 over 20% improvement right there? That's wonderful!
I'm sorry your lower back is hurting. Did you do anything that you know of to provoke it? Do you have vertebral fractures that you know of? Have you lost height?
My whole torso is pretty much painful--depending on how I move/what I do--all the time now, but I don't think it's because of an active (unstable, new) fracture at this point: I think it's from changes in my physiology. I'm three inches shorter, I'm starting to be stooped where old fractures are wedged in my upper back, and maybe to compensate, I'm over-curved in my lower back. Apparently I'm using all the wrong muscles to stabilize myself, and not using the ones I should use correctly. (Everyone is just guessing, I think; saw physical therapist last week, that's what she said, but she's judging based on how I respond to what she asks me to do, not images or anything like that.) But I believe it. When you have fractures, it hurts, so you avoid doing anything to tweak that area, right? But something has to hold you up, something has to bear the weight of my arms while I'm cutting hair (terrible profession for the body even if you don't have osteoporosis.) So, stuff gets sore.
Hopefully it's more THAT kind of thing for you? You can fix this stuff. Well, I'll never get my height back (maybe a little, but not all of it,) but I can work on those badly used muscles and gain appropriate strength...it's going to be hard, but it's at least possible.
It still sometimes FEELS like it's bones, though, like they're grinding or out of alignment--maybe they are! But strength can help there, too, right?
When I first got my diagnosis, I started doing what I know as tricep bridges, kind of a reverse plank. I'd hold it for five counts, rest, hold again, for 9, then on the 10th I'd hold it for 20 counts. My lower back was SOoo unstable then, and it wasn't always pleasant to get into that position, but you can't help--I think-- but activate your glutes, and all those tiny muscles around your sacrum when you do this move. I think I DID get stronger, and my lower back is actually the least of my worries now, while for awhile it was front and center.
Now I'm working on pushups--counter or coffeetable (I can do them on the floor but sonething popped in the right side of my upper back the last time I tried, so, I'm easing in?) wall works too for us frail people. They force my back--well, if you do them right?-- into a neutral posture, then hopefully work my upper back. Now IT'S the source of most of my pain, so I figure I have to start isolating those muscles, making them work, while NOT reinforcing my hunched posture, which is easy to do if I'm not supported. Trekking poles while I walk push me up and move those muscles, too. It's early days yet but I trust I can get better there, too.
I guess all to say, try to get stronger? Not just impact and such for bone building, but for pain relief, support of your spine and hips? If you're not already?
Thanks for sharing! Sorry for long-winded response. Unfortunately I think while I write, am not good at editing....
I get what you’re saying. Strengthening the muscles are a must. I am lucky I am meeting with a Mayo Clinic Physical Therapist for a consult the following week after my X-ray on Wednesday and I get up to 50 sessions paid for by my insurance. Right now I’m terrified of moving wrong until I get a diagnosis. I’ll let you know what I find out. It’s amazing all the things you are doing and I really don’t want this to get too out of hand so I can’t maintain some good quality of life. I’m still terrified of taking Tymlos though, I haven’t heard that many good reviews of it on here.
For whatever reasons, my endocrinologist, who told me Evenity was his first choice for me...and if I was going to take drugs, I agreed, because I'd read you want a bone builder if you've had fractures...didn't suggest either Forteo or Tymlos when Evenity became not an option, even though he has promotional materials for Forteo in his exam rooms. I didn't ask why; I had already decided I would just continue to let them forget about me until I had my scan (and indeed, they forgot about me,) but it surprised me. He must--at least in some circumstances? think it's contraindicated? I do know he felt Reclast would "reduce fracture risk in the spine" particularly, and as I was 99% sure I had a new fracture, (I felt so good one lovely September morning, I decided to see if I could still run; the run felt amazing, and I was super encouraged. I had felt what seemed to be some muscles "flapping" just around my waist, both sides of my spine, while I ran, but I figured that was because my muscles and skin are more compressed now than the last time I ran, and, it kind of felt good, like a massage! Was okay the next day but I didn't have opportunity to run outside, so I jogged on my rebounder, felt the same flapping. It wasn't until the next day that I was afraid I'd "done something" and it wasn't until I tried to ride my bike to work that I decided it was a fracture. (I now know how the jolts I get from the bumps in the road affect me at varying states of fracture and this felt fresh. I did go get an x-ray but they saw nothing. Learned later it can take a few weeks to see fractures on x-rays, and this was just five days; downside to paying for things on your own/not waiting for a recommendation? But I still know what they feel like now, having caught another one at the right moment, so....yeah.) Which, by the way, makes me fully understand your hesitation! I think it even surprised the endo; they SAY it doesn't take much to fracture, but most people--I suspect--aren't acquiring theirs through exercise, maybe because they're not doing much exercise? I have acquired all of my injuries through some sort of intentional effort to get stronger, help my bones. I can move furniture, sneeze, be hugged hard, carry groceries, lift 40 pounds of cat litter, so far, with impunity. (I WISH someone else would heft the cat litter but sometimes you just gotta get it done.) But running (good for the bones, right?) geez, running seems to be deadly (injured myself all three times I attempted to run between 2021 and 2023, apparently I am a slow learner,) and every other time in an exercise class involving strength training or working out with weights on my own, except my upper back, which ..I think might be from the stress of doing hair, but no one is willing to agree with me, so, who knows. (I just know I remember no specific incident.) So, either repetition or a pretty significant force/pressure was involved every time.
It SEEMS like as long as I am not caught off guard, don't repetitively twist, don't get too fatigued with too much weight, and don't repetitively jounce, I can do whatever I want. (Mind you, there are plenty of things I don't want to do, don't do if I can help it. My husband is much better at yardwork now. 😉) So, relatively static movements where my whole chain is braced (planks, bridges,) have been fine.
But you know your body best and you sound like you might be smarter than I am. Again, just sharing for the sake of those who might feel afraid to try. (I did "rest" for at least two weeks after injuries; kept walking, but didn't attempt strength. After two weeks, it felt better to carefully get back into it than to do nothing--like, the muscles started to need to be stressed/stretched a little.) Thanks again!
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gut bacteria, yeast, cortisol, etc. Was this the best test, is it accurate? I have no way of knowing, but when you think about it, 99% of everything is taken on faith. In any event, anything that could be high or low that would affect absorption of nutrients, I was there. The test also gave suggestions of how to address it, so...I jumped on them if there was any way to do it. I also did an elimination diet, just to see, because I'd never had symptoms I read as indicative of gut problems. I still can't say any one food group or item obviously affects me, but I've nonetheless tried to avoid gluten, processed sugar/foods, just because they seem to be implicated in a lot of things, and I really do want to get better, so.... Thanks for asking and good luck!
