CPR or dnr what a choice!

[Kate2628]

Funny phone call from doctors yesterday shielding for 3 months on 10 mg mtx that’s all asked if I was okay which l am then asked if I was to go in to hospital what would l want to happen as lm at very high risk if l did get COVID hence the question would l want cpr dnr? Has anyone else had this phone call?

[Boxerlady]

No and I wouldn't be impressed if I did although I suppose it's better than being written off without any say in the matter!

Out of interest, do you have any other health issues because if not, I don't think that just 10mg of Methotrexate makes you very high risk?

[helixhelix]

Are you sure it was your doctor’s? That is a very strange thing to discuss on the phone out of the blue!

And are you well over 80, with other conditions? As if not then your chances of needing to make that decision with Covid are pretty small - as something like a 75% survival rate for under 80’s in hospital. And 10mg MTX is such a low dose I’m surprised you have been asked to shield.

My OH knows my wishes, but I have not made a formal DNR yet as there are too many grey areas so he needs to decide at the time.

[Fruitandnutcase in reply to helixhelix]

I agree, are you sure it was your doctor’s surgery the call came from? That is a seriously weird way to deal with something so sensitive.

[springcross in reply to Fruitandnutcase]

This created a stir a few months ago just before Covid hit hard. People were getting calls from their GP surgeries, although we were not contacted, it was in the news and I'm pretty sure it was on TV news too and then it suddenly stopped. Whether they had complaints about it or not, I really don't know but I think it's disgraceful.

[Lolabridge in reply to springcross]

I would be very unhappy to receive such a call and would refuse to make a decision. I'm sure someone posted on here having had a similar call a couple of months ago. It was at about the same time that residents in care homes were being forced into signing documents stating their choice.

[springcross in reply to Lolabridge]

Yes, that too. Just found out round about the time it started - End March in Wales and early April in Bristol (and no doubt elsewhere too). The bristolcable.org website had an article about it and it was disgraceful, about a 61 year old cancer sufferer likening it to being sent a death warrant by the Grim Reaper and that's not the only one. It's shaken up relatives too. I want to say unbelievable, but obviously it's factual.

[Summerrain14]

I would be really suspicious of a call like this. I’m really sorry you have received such a call. x

[weathervane]

Im sorry you received this call Kate , im quite shocked . I think it may have been a hoax , it might be worth reporting it to your gp , and then put it out of your mind . Have a lovely weekend and relax 😀🌸

[bubblyalex]

It’s happened to quite a few and hit the headlines nearer the beginning of this all. It’s shocking and I warned my father in case he had a call like that.

[Kate2628]

Thanks for getting back to me everyone l have RA and sorgens no other health problems that l know of lm 73 years old sent email to our doctors just to see it was them that phoned let you know when we hear.

[Pippy25]

How insensitive....or may be I am sensitive but speaking of someone who had parents with multiple health conditions (one with a rare and little known disease), this was never suggested to them at any point. However both of them decided for themselves and then told me that this is what they wanted and fully informed they made that choice for themselves and the doctor was called to discuss this with them before completing the form. Initially I was shocked when they told me but then on talking it through with them understood and now realise it was right for them. So what makes this so utterly horrible is that people are being rung up out of the blue/ off guard about a subject or issue that is something that needs thought and they appear to be asking as a matter of a fact which feels so impersonal and devaluing. You wouldn't agree to a someone (I know this was your doctor but some have received calls out of the blue from people they don't know) asking you for your medical history over the phone so why would you want to answer if you would or would not want CPR or DNAR? I realise there is a pandemic on, but we also have other things such a influenza and other viruses that can sadly take lives so while I think this is something that people should not be afraid to discuss or decide for themselves or with family, loved ones or the doctor, what is this sudden 'ring round' all about? I know it is something I will have to think about but wont be pushed into it over the phone. Have a heart and give us some dignity, we already know that we have a life long disease (and maybe other health conditions), but don't make us feel like we are not worthy of saving life should we wish this. Sorry for long reply. Take care

[AgedCrone]

It’s a difficult question to have to ask....but if your doctor knows what you want..... it will help your next of kin in the unlikely event they need to make such a decision,......

[Lolabridge in reply to AgedCrone]

But I've given power of attorney to my two daughters to make the decision for me if I'm not capable of doing so and we have discussed my wishes and and theirs and the various likely eventualities. I feel that's a much more sensitive, kind and humane way of doing things.

[AgedCrone in reply to Lolabridge]

Had you told your doctor that? Many people just won’t discuss these

these conditions & often it’s something that doctors have to make minute by minute decisions on.

Although I don’t think it should be introduced in a telephone conversation.

I too have a PoA & my doctor has all the details...phone no’s emails etc.

But hey we are sensible, careful people we are NOT going to contract this virus...PMA...Positive Mental Attitude....l refuse to even consider it!

[Lolabridge in reply to AgedCrone]

No I haven't told my GP yet as I'm still waiting for confirmation that the LPAs have been registered but when I get that I will.

I'm certainly staying positive and taking good care of myself like you. x

[Pippy25 in reply to Lolabridge]

I too had POA for both my parents and having this discussion about the DNAR was while initially a shock for me gave clarity, I know not everyone is comfortable about discussing their wishes but it really helped that my parents felt able to do this and also talk about their wishes in respect of funerals. I don't have a problem with people choosing no CPR or DNAR but it troubles me when it seems like it is a 'tick box' and clinical exercise as opposed to a talk, discussion and informed choice made by a person.

[Lyndy]

I had this chat with a doctor whilst an inpatient on a Covid ward... even then I thought it was a bit much but I accepted that with RA and active cancer they were right not to offer me a ventilator. But to ring you out of the blue to get a preemptive DNR is outrageous! You might have mild symptoms or fight the disease against the odds.... who are they to say now that you don’t warrant saving!

I think this must be a policy within the NHS now for those of us with co morbidity. It’s deeply off putting and inhumane. Would you be keen to attend hospital if you do get Covid knowing that they have this attitude? You don’t have to agree to it if you don’t want to. xx

[AgedCrone in reply to Lyndy]

I agree it can be very upsetting to confront one’s mortality...but at the high point of this Pandemic....these decisions were being taken hourly...purely on clinical grounds....thankfully things have improved now.

Of course if you are an oldie like me...I probably would not cope...so I would far prefer to be kept comfortable than go through stressful, painful treatment.....& end up an invalid.....unable to live a life I could enjoy....I don’t just want to be alive.....I want an enjoyable life.

[Pippy25 in reply to Lyndy]

Wow Lyndy, that must have felt hard to hear and I can't imagine how it must have felt for you. If you have a DNAR form in place I know it goes with you when you are taken to hospital. In my experience the hospital then issue another one while you are there and it is on file, then when you are discharged the original one is returned to home or wherever you are discharged to. I understand you can change your mind about DNAR, but if this is on record can you be sure that everyone knows that it is now not in place. This is why I feel you have to be sure and clear about what you would want.

[helixhelix in reply to Lyndy]

Yes is the fact of being called out of the blue to make a pre-emptive decision that offends me. And the OP is only 73 with minimal drugs and no comorbidities so barely makes it into the category of high risk!

It is a good idea to discuss this with your family at any age, and GPs should raise the question at an appropriate moment. But not like this.

And congratulations (possibly not the right word!) for having weathered covid. Hope you are fully recovered.

[Blueskysunshine]

How insensitive to ring you out of the blue and say this. I’m so sorry you received such a call and am pleased you’ve emailed your GP surgery to check. Take care x

[summer32A]

I was wondering if you were heaven forbid scam called?

Hoping gp will shed some light you need to mention how upset you were and how insensitive it was if it was them!

[happytulip]

It is now common practice for a senior doctor to discuss this with a patient before they leave A&E and get admitted to a ward. This has been the case for many years, in my experience anyway.

If it's don't appropriately and sensitively then it is a good thing that a patient's wishes are known..

So I wouldn't read too much into being asked, basically, its not just you although I can understand why it would be a bit of a shock.

But to ask people over the phone it a bit heartless to be honest and there is no certainty that any GP records would match up with hospital records.

Besides, a DO NOT ATTEMPT CPR form should be reassessed on every admission and every admission treated on its own merit.

Very upsetting on the phone.

[sylvi]

AS i am not ready to die yet they don't want to ask me that question full stop.xxxx

[BoneyC]

Did the doctor ask you to think about CPR/DNR should the need arise, or suggest you discuss it with your family, or tell you about filling in a form? There's more to it than a quick chat over the phone.

nhs.uk/conditions/end-of-li...

[GranAmie]

so much support , advice, info here 4u : can't add to it but sending a supportive [virtual] hug. x

[Sheila_G]

Sounds very suspicious to me. x

[mhlmom]

I have had the same call. The GP said she was embarrassed to even ask but she had to as it was a government led thing. She said she would be alerting mental health if I said DNR at 53 with rheumatoid arthritis! I said I felt disgusted as it suggested that health professionals should be giving shielders second class treatment ☹️

[Pippy25 in reply to mhlmom]

And thereby hangs the tale.....a box ticking exercise, which again like the mishmash of who received or did not receive letters, texts to shield, did or did not meet the criteria for shielding or support etc. I think your doctor did the right thing in respect of knowing you as a person and your health and on discussing it with you felt it clearly was not right for you right now. Although I do take on board this is an individual thing, is it right that all people with life long health conditions 'vulnerable' should be deemed as you say 'second class.' If these calls are bona fide I don't blame the messenger as they have been instructed to do this, but what I do feel is that it should not be assumed that all people with life long health conditions have no quality to their life and if this is correct a 'one size fits all' directive from government should not suggest that we all should have DNAR's put on our records.

[Hidden]

I'm over 70 and on 10 mg MTX. It's a very low dose. Those two together are not enough to be shielding. I don't understand why you have been. If it really was the doctor's I'd say they've got a cheek and need reprimanding for causing you totally unnecessary distress. It comes across as if they've decided - quite wrongly - that you haven't got much of a chance and want to be let off the bother of trying to save you. I feel a bit dubious about whether it really was the doctor's.