No vaccine no visits?

[Cokopops]

Do you let anyone unvaccinated visit you in your house? Such a dilemma..

[cmc_ufl]

We recently had our son 2 months premature (doing fine, no resulting complications). The pediatrician recommended that since he was born immunocompromised that we hold a "vaccine or mask" policy in our home for anyone wanting to come visit. I assume this logic also holds for immunocompromised adults.

[mhos61 in reply to cmc_ufl]

Congratulations on the birth of your son! X

[Wyebird in reply to cmc_ufl]

Congratulations I hope he continues to thrive. I think your surgeon’s suggestion is a fab idea. I invited a friend to stay and only in passing conversation did I find out she wasn’t and refused to be immunised. I was horrified. I told her I would visit her soon but now I won’t until she is jabbed.

[Emmyroos]

No vax-No visit is the policy at our house too. I've got two young kids that can't be vaccinated yet.

[scousesbird]

We don't allow anyone not vaccinated or without a negative lateral flow test in our house. Funnily enough we don't get many visitors!! But, my husband is obsessively paranoid (which can be draining) so it has to be done.

[ciye]

I don't ask nor would I. The way the world is going we won't have to.. the unvaccinated will be forced to comply...... 2 years ago had someone voiced that opinion I would have thought they were mad we don't do that.... It turns out we do no vaccine no entry.....I don't know what if any level of cover my 2 doses have given me I am not convinced a 3rd will provide any more.

[Tico in reply to ciye]

I agree wholly with you. I've had the 3 jabs but wouldn't dream of asking someone to show me 'proof' of their status. I believe its personal choice and i'm astounded that countries like Greece plan to fine their citizens €100 a month until they get vaccinated. Tina.🤗

[Ccsintx in reply to ciye]

I would never ask anyone either. People with and without the vaccine are getting COVID. But I am from the states- Texas to be exact and we hardly even wear mask anymore and life is almost normal. The only time I wear one is at the doctors office.

[mhos61]

It is a dilemma, and obviously a personal choice. But the unvaccinated shouldn’t be willing to put you at risk either.

[Eric73 in reply to mhos61]

How are the unvaccintated putting anyone at risk? The vaccinated are still able to contract, transmit, suffer severe sypmptoms or even die from the virus. The vaccinated are not immune. Also, there are many reasons why people are not vaccinated. Why are they being portrayed as a new enemy?

[mhos61 in reply to Eric73]

Yes, I am aware that anyone can transmit or indeed contract Covid despite vaccine status.

I agree with you that not all can get vaccinated and nobody is immune. My sister in law and her husband (both in their late seventies) presently have Covid even though having been double jabbed. However, they’re both doing remarkably well, despite between them having significant comorbities. My ‘personal’ opinion is this is entirely due to the vaccine safeguarding them.

With regards to the vaccines. My understanding has always been its not impossible to transmit disease if you’re vaccinated but less likely?

[Eric73 in reply to mhos61]

Personal opinion and personal choice is a freedom we are lucky to enjoy and i respect your freedoms. If the vaccinations work for and you feel they have had a positive impact on those close to you, i'm not going to burst your bubble. Believe me, i'm happy that you and yours are OK. I'm not vaccinated for medical reasons, but even if there wasn't a medical reason, by personal choice, i would not have the vaccine. The virus is the problem, not the population. Its saddens me to see a division of the people, willing to turn on one another by the fear mongering that has been whipped up by the mainstream media and government. I guess this isn't the right forum to debate the whole COVID topic or deviate from Cokopops' dilema but would be willing to engage with you and others in a more appropriate setting. Ultimately, Cokopops and everyone here will do what they feel is right for them and thats their choice and I hope this community has helped. But please don't put a target on the backs of the unvaccinated.

[mhos61 in reply to Eric73]

You are absolutely right. Personal opinion and choice is a freedom we are lucky to enjoy, as long as in making those choices we don’t do harm to others.

I am certainly not putting a target on the backs of the unvaccinated (your interpretation); how could I? There are too many categories the unvaccinated population fall into for me to judge.

I was simply stating that ‘my understanding’ of the transmissibility of disease is ‘less’ in the vaccinated based on the scientific data that I have read.

[Eric73 in reply to mhos61]

Fair enough.

My target statement could have been worded better and was not aimed at you personally.

Peace and love.

[Otterfield in reply to Eric73]

No the unvaccinated are not enemies but the evidence is that they are more likely to pass on the virus and, sadly for them, more likely to be hospitalized. I wish that wasn't the case as a much loved family member has not been vaccinated., which I find frustrating.

[Eric73 in reply to Otterfield]

I'd like to see the evidence you speak of. I've had COVID twice. Apart from a stranger in the street or supermarket, all of the people i have contact with are double jabbed and boostered. So who passed the virus on to me? In my opinion, evidence and statistics rolled out for consumption by the masses, is questionable at best.

Allegedly, in the UK, 18.9m remain unvaccinated, two thirds of which are under 16years old. Apparently that leaves 5.9m adults yet to have a jab. Its inconceivable to think that its those people that are responsible for the continued high infection rate.

[Otterfield in reply to Eric73]

I don't know how you caught it but as I said, it is possible to pass it on if you are vaccinated, but less likely. Perhaps those strangers in the supermarket, who knows? The friends I know who have caught it had had contact with their grandchildren. The vaccine reduces risk, it doesn't eliminate it.Statistical evidence is easy enough to find and I don't think you need me to guide you through a web search to find statistics. If you have already decided that all the statistics available on what you and others call the "mainstream media" (eg Office of National Statistics, SAGE etc) are lies, then there is no point in directing you to such evidence.

However, you are very much mistaken if you think that you are viewed as an enemy. It's your choice, but returning to the OP's question, I hope you respect the wishes of those of us who need to keep well away from those who have made that choice.

[DJK12 in reply to Eric73]

Quite simply the unvaccinated are putting all of us at risk by being the majority, who when hospitalised, are taking up scarce ICU beds. Those of us at the serious stage of MF might well need a bed for our MPN and not necessarily covid - I myself narrowly missed ICU 6 years ago. Major operations are being delayed, with no doubt resulting deaths or severe illness and pain, as the consultants cannot rely on a ICU bed being available - this could affect any of us or our relatives.

If there are medical reasons for not being vaccinated that's a different case but otherwise personally I would find it difficult to explain to someone who can't access an ICU bed with subsequent consequences why I wouldn't get the jabs plus boosters.

To go back to Cocopop's original question as the hospitals are so full I feel we mustn't have people in the house to avoid catching covid and myself getting hospitalised because of my severe immunosuppression . The vaccinated are statistically less likely to pass it on. As it appears people will take offence if asked it's simpler to take strict precautions.

A hospital admission in the summer with pneumonia was a nightmare because of covid protocols. A long time on a very uncomfortable trolley while a bed was searched for. The ward I was in, as a holding ward until my pcr was clear, was repurposed from care for the elderly - where had they gone?

I'm sorry this lengthy but I feel very strongly about our responsibilities to our fellow citizens.

[ciye in reply to mhos61]

As you say the vaccine doesn't stop you transmitting or getting covid. We don't know the long term effects of these vaccines the unvaccinated may turn out to be there smart ones. At the moment the world is a scary place were law abiding citizens are finding restrictions to normal life if the don't get jabbed, this is so wrong.

[Amethist]

Please bear in mind there are many studies that show that, whether vaccinated or unvaccinated, you can all catch covid, carry the same viral load and pass it in to others. There is no difference between the groups.Some studies are now also showing, worryingly, that the countries with higher vaccination rates, the higher the cases of covid. ( eg: Gibraltar, Israel )

In the Lancet recently there was a paper saying demonizing the unvaccinated was unwarranted.

The efficacy of masks is doubtful too.

It’s all there in the medical journals if you take a look.

Good ventilation and hand washing is helpfully.

We should all value and love our friends and family, whatever decision they have made, but we must allow them to make their own decision without coercion or penalty.

Take care everyone .

[Tico in reply to Amethist]

I agree with your last paragragh and don't believe any such coercion or penalties should be put on people. To me it as to be personal choice. I've had 3 jabs and decided that is it. I will not be having the 4th one. Tina.🤗

[Dovme in reply to Amethist]

I asked Maz if she could perhaps organise a knowledgeable team member to address these issues as they have arisen in several threads.

I just thought it important to actually place some context around your claims. I am not going to get into a debate about it as its not appropriate

Israel is not one of the most vaccinated countries. Aprox 63% are double vaccinated well below every country in West Europe and even below many developing nations i.e. Thailand.

ourworldindata.org/covid-va...

Possible reasons are many Israeli Arabs and Orthodox Jews are for religious and political reasons vaccine hesitant.

Israel was one of the first countries to begin its COVID vaccine rollout after it reached an agreement with Pfizer to provide anonymous epidemiological data to the pharmaceutical company. This has meant it has been at the forefront of research into the effectiveness of the 'Pfizer' vaccine.

Data from the country’s health ministry for October 26 show 77 per cent of COVID-19 patients hospitalised with severe illness were unvaccinated, with 187 unvaccinated patients and 55 vaccinated patients.

aap.com.au/factcheck/sugges...

We also now know that vaccines do wane over time. Israel was the first to vaccinate back in Jan and some groups are now exposed ie elders etc hence boosters.

Gibraltar -On November 28, 16 people tested positive for COVID-19 . Five were vaccinated and 11 were unvaccinated. Nine of them were 15 and younger.

On November 30, 24 vaccinated individuals tested positive for COVID-19 versus 18 unvaccinated individuals. In light of the waning effectiveness of vaccines over time, Gibraltar’s Ministry of Health and Care has been pushing booster shots for those in their 40s plus. Since the start of the pandemic, there have been 98 COVID-19 deaths in Gibraltar out of 7,281 confirmed cases. There have only been FOUR deaths since March, when Gibraltar reached near full vaccination for its eligible adult population. Children who become sick are counted among COVID-19 infections, and there are an estimated 6,887 people under the age of 15 in Gibraltar. The most recent data indicate that new infections are disproportionately hitting Gibraltar’s unvaccinated, many of whom are children.

One of the organisations who have been feeding false information on Gibraltar is The Dr. Rath Health Foundation, which has drawn controversy by pushing people to treat HIV/AIDs with vitamins

Masks : Numerous studies to show masks effectiveness. But much does depend on the type of mask how its worn etc. This is an area that Guys could inform and reassure on ?

uwaterloo.ca/news/media/stu...

scientificamerican.com/arti...

Finally, I do agree with you about mutual respect between the unvaccinated and vaccinated. Here in Germany some 18 elders died in a care home recently from Covid.

14 were unvaccinated or partially vaccinated. When investigated the authorities discovered that in many cases extended Vax hessitant/anti Vax family had persuaded the relative or instructed the care givers not to vaccinate their relatives.

In Cyprus last week where my family come from 2 bombs were placed in primary schools by anti vax extremists

greekcitytimes.com/2021/12/...

cyprus-mail.com/2021/12/03/...

Its sad and frustrating that polarisation is happening but Anti Vaxers or anti Covid Vaxers are not a homogenous group. It has many extremist elements and has become political rather then about health and facts. I personally reported anti Semitic blog recently to the authorities which claimed Jews were running Big Pharma and WHO.

I would urge people to check with doctors with queries or uncertainties about vaccines

[mhos61 in reply to Dovme]

Thanks for taking the time out to articulately address this issue, but more importantly, backing up your statements with credible evidence from professional sources!

[Mazcd Partner MPNVoice in reply to Dovme]

Hi Dovme, as per your request, the reply from the medical team is:

There is clear evidence that vaccines and indeed masks are effective.

Whether or not to be vaccinated or wear a mask is a personal choice.

[moo196]

Being vaccinated doesn't provide any protection against others potentially bringing it in to the house.My policy is only my son and his husband visit me indoors.

Otherwise I meet friends outdoors.

[Barbara140]

I wouldn't like to ask anyone about vaccines or to test, but the few visitors we have are asked to go straight through to the garden. If indoors visits are unavoidable then we open the windows.

[lhasedoglover]

Noone comes in our house anymore. Last Thursday a friend Came but we had coffee outside. Luckily because she tested positive. Now no more contacts.

[MrDeanC]

This has been a tricky one for us. We do not stop people coming in if they haven't had the vaccine. We have been fortunate that all family and friends are very good with getting LFT or PCR tests prior to visiting us. We also exercise social distancing and will be outdoors when possible (weather permitting)

The reason we are not as strict on the vaccine is that we have many friends and family that have tested positive in the past 6 months. Many of these had been double vaccinated at the time. Therefore, we would prefer to rely on test results and social distancing as we feel other peoples vaccines offers no protection to us.

[Borage]

The plumber told us he was fully vaccinated without being asked.Nobody else is visiting. We talked to our friend, who called unexpectedly, on the front drive. She had been visiting several households that weekend.

We have just restarted short mat bowls. Numbers are strictly limited. Everyone has to do a lateral flow test beforehand and wear a mask and use hand gel, and the windows are open in the hall. There is no shaking hands at the end of a match. No handing anyone their ball. We have to take out own flask of coffee as the kitchen is out of bounds.

[LondonWife]

Yes of course.

Both vaccinated and unvaccinated can catch and transmit covid.

Everyone has to do what they feel comfortable with in their own home - but we would never dream of asking or discriminating.

We feel very strongly that other peoples medical decisions about how they protect themselves are their business alone.

[Bears23]

Just keep in mind anybody can pass the virus (vaccinated or unvaccinated), my fully vaccinated son just had COVID. His symptoms were not bad, but he could still pass the virus.

[Otterfield]

We have decided against having any visitors, whether they are vaccinated or not (apart from necessary plumbers etc). My sister is a teacher but when they visited us in the summer, they sat outside at her suggestion, and we talked quite happily through the open patio doors. A few comments have pointed out that vaccinated people can still catch Covid. While that is true, they are much less likely to be hospitalized or to die, and transmission is less likely too. The anti-vaxxers I sometimes encounter on Facebook ignore the latter points!

[DJK12 in reply to Otterfield]

We are following exactly the same course. Transmission as you say is far less if vaccinated but I don't want to ask for personal information nor risk getting arguments so it is simpler and safer to lead a quiet life. Our good friends know I am immunocompromised with a nasty tendency to pneumonia and accept we are taking extra care. Over the last few weeks hospitals have been reporting that ITU beds with covid patients are made up of 75% of non vaccinated patients so the contining disinformation about vaccines and masks is quite honestly tragic.

My daughter reports that if she is meeting people they are now generally texting each other about vaccination status and test results beforehand. It seems now to be modern etiquette with the younger generation. Perhaps being patient facing in the NHS makes her and her colleagues acutely aware of the need to take extra care.

I also check that anyone coming to do essential work in the house will wear a mask after two unpleasant episodes earlier in the year, prior to the vaccines starting, when two people refused and our work was urgent - one had a very dubious reason for refusing and the other started a political rant. I notice most firms when booking an appointment ask us to be covid aware so I feel it works both ways.

[MWxxxx]

I try not to invite anyone into my house if I can. I have only have had family to visit in the garden during the summer. My teenage children only have their friends around into the garage so they don't come into the house! And I ask for them to take a lateral flow test beforehand. I wouldn't have anyone in my house without them having a vaccine or wearing a mask. I agree vaccines should be a personal choice but as far as I am concerned - my house, my rules!

[EPguy]

Your question got me thinking, we actually don't know any family or friends that are not fully vaxed, and near all are triple vaxed. Still we have few visitors.

In the US the quick test we have to pay, ~$25 each. In UK it's no cost, which is so much smarter. Biden just said insurance will need to cover it soon, but that's still a hassle.

[DJK12]

I'm afraid we are getting away from Cocopop's original post. However if you don't accept doctors both in the UK and Europe reporting both that being vaccinated decreases transmission or that the majority of hospitals covid patients are unvaccinated you are going down a conspiracy rabbit hole where I'm not following.

Also if you are asserting that NHS staff are lying about being both exhausted and understaffed I presume you have no family or friends working in the NHS. Personally my daughter is exhausted just trying to make a dent in her waiting list and she is 'just' a physio and not a nurse or doctor doing longer hours. Staff at my haematology clinic told me about being reassigned to covid wards prior to vaccinations being available. - the horrors will remain with them. The Nightingale hospitals were conceived for the right reasons but bad planning. Not enough staff to man them - there isn't a magic staff bank.

[Otterfield]

I was prepared to respect your point of view even though I disagree, but then I read your comment about hospital staff allowing themselves to smile and dance after the most horrifically stressful days they have ever worked through.

I'm afraid that you are now coming across as just another conspiracy theorist. This is a serious forum for MPN patients so let's leave the rants for Facebook.