Veganism

[MikePollard]

The current buzzword circulating among the worthies pushing back against modern living is veganism.

There is probably something worth teasing out in their philosophy, but for the life of me, I can't see it.

Like beards and tattoos, it's groupthink and if you aren't in, there is something a little odd about you.

There is one interesting fact that is beyond dispute.

Veganism is a modern construct utterly at odds with ancient diets. Vegetarianism is fine, as it includes some animal products, but prior to 1972 if you followed the vegan pathway you would certainly have died prematurely.

Why?

Because that's when vitamin B12 was synthesised!

And notwithstanding the noise generated when you put forward the B12 argument, without B12 supplementation, as a vegan, you are toast.

This from the Vegan Society:

vegansociety.com/resources/...

[TheAwfulToad Ambassador]

"many do not get enough to minimize potential risk of heart disease..."

So much for the idea that veganism is super-healthy for your heart.

"If for any reason you choose not to use fortified foods or supplements you should recognise that you are carrying out a dangerous experiment - one that many have tried before with consistently low levels of success."

But hey, let's not let hard reality get in the way of fanaticism:

"From this standpoint the natural adaptation for most (possibly all) humans in the modern world is a vegan diet."

Personally, I'm not bothered if a few people choose to eat odd diets. I'm sure there are some people who (for whatever reason) just don't like the taste of meat or find that it disagrees with them. As long as they take their B12 pills, they're not harming themselves or anyone else (arguably - I'm not convinced it's a good idea to bring up children on a pure-vegan diet).

However, veganism as a quasi-religious movement really bothers me, because the politicians are starting to pay attention. While I don't think any of them genuinely believe that veganism is either healthy or environmentally-friendly, a successful politician knows a good bandwagon when he/she sees it. Every so often the talking heads tell us we should all adopt a meat-free diet for the good of the planet - oh, and because "meat is a proven carcinogen".

All this is incredibly dangerous. It gives Big Ag yet another excuse to create a brand-new generation of fake food full of corn and soy and chemicals (with the full weight of government advice behind them), and to carry on with fundamentally wasteful, inefficient and planet-wrecking agricultural practices - because, after all, veganism makes that all go away, even if it doesn't. We live in a world where things can be true as long as you repeat them often enough.

[Hidden]

I read that some vegans call vitamin b12 ..the meat eaters last stand/defence..so denying to themselves that they are meat eaters but somewhere down the line developed problems.. many have turned to trolling as a way of comforting themselves.

I think now the main drive for veganism is mostly due to food companies jumping on the bandwagon and spinning a lot of bull on how healthy their products are....

in the real world who gives a "marrot" on what others eat..most of the world have enough problems with putting food on their own table..or their mat.

ahh..I feel better now..thanks.

[Cooper27]

I have a friend who was persuaded to turn vegetarian by a group she was hanging around with. No one told her about needing B12 supplements (and perhaps I should have, but I just presumed she was advised). A year later she was found to have a B12 deficiency, and I just got super-angry. I've given her some advice for going forward at least.

The big positive is that I love the selection of foods coming available on supermarket shelves these days - lunch-on-the-go options that contain whole, minimally processed foods. They look delicious! Unfortunately they all seem to contain gluten, soya or legumes (I avoid the first two, and can't digest legumes). I'm a bit sad that they seem to presume the only people who wish to eat whole foods are vegans.

[Hidden in reply to Cooper27]

with my lunch today I had some of my favourite DittmanN mild pickled chillis..I hadn't noticed before on the packaging that they are now gluten free..hefe free..lactose free and now vegan.

all the recipes that my great grandmother, grandmother, mother, and now myself at age 70.. are now vegan.🐴

[Cooper27 in reply to Hidden]

Yep, I'm waiting for the day I find a gluten free, fairy free, vegan symbol on apples Food industry loves a label!

[Hidden in reply to Cooper27]

we got them here in Thailand 😏

[TheAwfulToad Ambassador in reply to Cooper27]

Those damn fairies! A bit more insecticide will sort them out!

[Cooper27 in reply to TheAwfulToad]

Ha ha! Autocorrect strikes!

[TheAwfulToad Ambassador in reply to Cooper27]

I'm not sure if they "presume the only people who wish to eat whole foods are vegans" ... although sadly that might actually be true! As you said, it's all about labels. People see a "this is healthy" label, and they'll buy the product.

I suppose if this gets people buying vegetables (for example) where they otherwise just wouldn't, maybe that's a good thing. But as you've noticed, a lot of what's on offer is actually just junk food with the flavourings removed, so I suspect it won't - people might try these things out of curiosity, say "urgh, vegetables are as nasty as I thought", and never buy them again. But the manufacturers will retain a hardcore market of hemp-sandalled customers, and that's what matters: the markups on those products are big enough (and the ingredients are cheap enough) to justify serving a minority market.

One thing that really annoys me about the low-fat movement is that people now associate healthfulness with tasteless pap. Most cuisines - I'm thinking Indian and Mediterranean in particular - are full of excellent vegetable-based recipes. The modern Western version of veganism is a humourless caricature of what a "whole foods plant based" diet ought to be.

[Cooper27 in reply to TheAwfulToad]

I dunno, in my opinion, they cater for 3 groups: vegan (aka Gregg's sausage roll), WFPB (lentil pots) and the rest of us (sandwiches, sushi, pasta pots).

The bit I'm talking about is the emergence of genuinely WFPB options that look like genuinely health stuff, when you check the label. All natural herbs and spices for flavour, served with carrot and courgette noodles, kale, no sugar and not a preservative in sight. Though you're probably right, it'd be low fat, because you also can't be both WFPB and LCHF (according to the industry).

[TheAwfulToad Ambassador in reply to Cooper27]

Interesting. I'm actually heading back to the UK tomorrow so I'll have a snoop around the supermarkets. I don't recall seeing these things before.

[Cooper27 in reply to TheAwfulToad]

I think they're more likely in city centre branches. I've definitely seen a few in the co op, Tesco metro and m&s!

[bigleg]

In this discussion "veganism to save the planet" raises my blood pressure!!!! Yesterday's news covered the destruction of the Amazon forest and using 'feeding the cattle' as the excuse. It is to increase the acres and acres of soya that goes into processed foods. The destruction of the forests in the East for acres and acres of palm oil - that goes into processed foods is another major contributor to our climate change. We need to publicise better the eat real food containing ethically reared animal products. Eat Local. Eating LCHF one eats so much less food. Will the amazing work of the Savoury Institute and the regenerative agriculuture movement using livestock to help reverse desertification ever make mainstream news? Will the mainstream news ever show the damage of consitstent destruction on our soils?

[TheAwfulToad Ambassador in reply to bigleg]

Couldn't agree more. There's nothing wrong with international trade as such, but the massive subsidies being poured into agriculture and fossil fuels completely skew the economics of the thing, so that people come to believe that it's "more efficient" to import carrots from 2000 miles away instead of just growing them down the road. It isn't. It's just rigged to look that way.

Did you happen to read George Monbiot's hit piece on Allan Savory? This was a few years back. The thrust of the argument was "this can't possibly work because I have a degree in zoology". The fact that it does work went completely over his head. I'm not sure what motivates that sort of thing.

I've done "mob grazing" myself on a small scale with goats. It absolutely does work in my climate (wet-dry tropics), and I've seen people on youtube doing it successfully in different climates (including some medium-scale operators like Joel Salatin/Polyface farm). Monbiot doesn't seem to grasp that you don't need "studies" to validate this sort of thing. If someone's making an honest living by doing it, it probably works.

EDIT: here we go:

theguardian.com/environment...

[bigleg in reply to TheAwfulToad]

I had read that piece from George Monbiot and agree with your summary. There is some wonderful work in parts of Australia now, not only using mob grazing, but also managing the land in an intelligent manner and greening up the dessert. In your quest to help answer the question on motivation - did you read this amazing article of Belinda Fettke when she wanted to find out just who was behind her huband's warning to stop giving dietary advice or he would have his medical license revoked with out right of appeal "Lifestyle Medicine - Where did all the Meat Go"? isupportgary.com/articles/t...

[Hidden in reply to bigleg]

no one really believes that going on to a vegan diet will have any kind of impact in saving the planet...I don't even think vegans believe that.

I live in Thailand and do look in at times to BBC yesterday's news..not much catches my attention as am normally dozing off when I have time to watch TV. today it was said that every 60 seconds an area the size of a football pitch is been destroyed in the Amazon raid forest and they put the reason for this solely on the raising demand for beef..it even showed some cattle grazing on there.

the new government was elected on the back of promises that it would increase deforestation for agricultural use..and no one can make negative comments. it was also said destroying the rainforest would speed up global warming...

personally I don't care what they intend to do with destroyed forest..but its pretty hard not to care about destroying it.

[Dietwoman]

Hi I just felt the need to reply to this as a vegan...

I am not bearded or tattooed I am 53 have been a vegetarian since I was 12 with my parents and sister this was my choice. I then became vegan about 4 years ago.

I agree about processed foods I don’t buy them I cook from scratch every day using healthy foods. Labels are there to show people they can eat them if something is labelled vegan clearly it helps people know that no animal products or in it what is wrong with that

I became vegetarian first through not wanting to eat animals I stand by that. I became vegan because as a child I lived in the country and I have memories of mother cows crying when their babies where taken so we could have their milk, so I made a personal choice to be vegan these are my morals. I do not have any health issues. I am fit and healthy with a healthy Bmi I need to lose about 1 stone, yes vegans can be overweight too

My children eat meat as does my husband. I do not tell people not to eat meat this is their choice but I frequently get people telling me what to eat.

I do however take a B12 supplement. There are militant younger vegans who want to shout out loud and tell the world to choose their lifestyle I don’t agree. I think the quiet people, quietly keep going doing what they feel is right for themselves and the environment.

[Nomash]

This is an interesting post I am vegetarian myself, sort of, that is I will eat fish if I feel my body needs it. I live by the standard of which I don't expect anyone to do something I wouldn't do my self. Such as kill an animal in an abattoir. (although I may if I thought my children would starve I guess). Veganism is a little odd, I understand the principles, even agree to some extent. However a lot of things they use are animal orientated at some point. Any medicine they take for example! Vitamin b12 as another example!

[Dietwoman in reply to Nomash]

The B12 I take is completely plant based you can get this vitamin from plants but would need to eat a lot so vegans take B12.

I was vegetarian from 12 and then 3 years ago decided to become vegan, i am 53. due to milk production and how this is farmed. It upsets me to think of this. So cows are kept pregnant and their calves removed at a young age so milk production keeps going, the mother cows cry when their babies are removed. This happens over and over again. Also the use of machinery can cause infection and pus in the milk. I can not being myself to be part of this.

Meat and dairy is a huge money making industry, meat is not the all important protein that we have been told it is. I am proof that you can live a healthy life with out it. Yes maybe I am odd but I am happy to be odd to do my bit for other beautiful animals we share our planet with.

These are my morals I do not force this on anyone else as my children and husband eat meat and milk.

Please don’t judge vegans yes there are some militant vegans and is seems to be a trendy thing currently, it’s good society is becoming more aware but again the food industry is capitalising on making money.

[MikePollard in reply to Dietwoman]

I have absolutely no problem with veganism from an ethical standpoint. However, it is a stretch too far to claim it is the ultimate diet for health and saving the planet.

Veganism is a moder construct, and I wish people luck following it, however,

there is no society on the planet, nor has there ever been, that has based their diet soley on plants.

[Nomash in reply to Dietwoman]

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that vegans are a little odd. I do understand the principle behind it and agree about the dairy industry. I just meant that, a lot of things we use, eat etc have at some point been derived or tested on animals. Such as medicines or medical treatment. Sorry if I caused offence, I really didn't mean too.

[Dietwoman in reply to Nomash]

Hi

You did not cause offence I am a little odd 😂 my family all call me weird hippy but I am ok with it lol

You are right of course medications and beauty products have been tested on animals I do look for products not tested on animals or wear any animal products but I know that a lot of life saving medicine has been made this way, and although I feel uneasy about this I know that it has saved many many lives. 😀