I saw Piers Morgan ranting about this on the tv so decided to check it out and the question arises because to grow avacados and almonds there are not enough local bees so migratory bees are used which are then killed afterwards, which's obviously against the whole ethos of vegnaism. Obviously they are plant based but the moral dilemma is are bees exploited to grow these crops.
I just can't believe this, in my eyes this is completely unacceptable and I will not be eating Avocados or Almonds. We are destroying the planet, and yet nothing much changes. Soon there will be no animal/insects left - they will have all been destroyed either by some natural disaster or People hunting/for Food.
Things drastically need to change, this is so very upsetting
Thank you for posting this Jerry, I was not aware of this
Hi Debs, I didn't realise that this was going on and felt upset too as I love bees and we need more bees and in locations that bees can survive.
The sad thing is that there is no need for this as we could live with Mother Nature and have lifestyles that are complimentary to our planet and home...
I totally agree with you Jerry, so many things I cant believe go on, every day I am bombarded with emails from these animal rights groups, in the end it just upsets you and emotionally drains you. They do an amazing job, but it's such wicked things that go on, i am amazed at how they go and get the evidence, they are so wonderful, but looking at the bigger picture, it looks bleak
One of the reasons I dislike the vegan philosophy is that it skates over these issues with some sort of excuse ... because it has no choice. All farming involves the deaths of animals, often via deliberate, mindless killing. As I've argued elsewhere, the vegan is responsible for the same number of animal deaths as the carnivore - minus the occasional cow or pig - because industrial agriculture is so incredibly destructive.
The second reason is that veganism is overtly opposed to Mother Nature. The argument is typically made that humans stand outside of (or above?) Nature, and are at liberty to make "moral decisions" which override hers. This is precisely the argument made by the proponents of factory-farming to support their depradations, and reframing it with a different intent does not change the outcome. We are not outside of nature; we have an ecological niche which we should accept with humility, because when we think we know better and start fiddling with things, the Law of Unintended Consequences usually kicks in.
Some like to call humans "Apex Predators". I don't think this is so. I think our niche is so unique it doesn't have a name. I'm going to call us the Curators. However, humanity seems to have long ago forgotten what that might mean.
The Jains, at least, recognise the killing dilemma. They do their best, but they know it's unfixable.
Two things here, firstly most vegans are idealistic so a pragmatist will not see eye to eye, I think it's down to personal choices as we are urbanised creatures.
I think that again you are very astute with this: "We are not outside of nature; we have an ecological niche which we should accept with humility" I agree 100% so well said.
I think that the most important thing that we can do is to be as aware of what we are buying and eating so that we as individuals can make better choices. Vote with our pockets...😊
We absolutely do need to vote with our pockets. It's all very well bemoaning the power of the food conglomerates, but we'd go a long way to solving the problem if more people would simply stop buying their products, instead of saying "I hate [supermarket] but I have to shop at [supermarket] because they have the best prices". The way I see it, if your food outlay takes a lower priority than your cellphone plan, your TV channel package, or your new car, you're probably not that bothered either about your own health or the state of the planet.
I'd class myself as a "real food" advocate, and I probably have a lot of common ground with vegans. Our goals are the same: an end to government-sponsored animal cruelty and environmental mismanagement. I'm probably just as idealistic as they are. It's just a pity we can't find some way to work together.
Ironically it's probably easier for me voting with my pocket because I'm a coeliac as I have to make choices based on my strict dietary needs rather than cost. I moved from the city to a small town and my local whole food shop is amazing and I buy all my GF flour there even though it's around 40p per 1Kg more than in supermarkets but they have a better selection and it beats driving miles just to save pennies and I can rely on them.
I see myself as a real foodie who happens to be a coeliac all foodies have a lot in common and we should focus on we what have in common rather than our differences, on HE we cater for all healthy diets so are a bunch of eclectic foodies with from a myriad of social and cultural backgrounds and yet we look at the food not the politics of the food which's why we can enjoy one another's company and inspire one another so we feed off each other rather than reacting against others choices.
So the secret to me is to accept one another for who and what we are and focus on common goals/interests and learn to live in harmony with one another and Mother Nature. And me being an idealistic I know that we can work together on common causes and interests for 'our' mutual benefit.
I've known about this for a little while, and I know several vegans who opted to cut out avocados as a result. Also olives, due to the way the are harvested.
I personally cut back on avocados after finding out about drought issues in the areas they're growing in. They're diverting so much water to the avocado crops (for export) that locals don't have enough to drink. It just doesn't seem fair.
I know there's things caused by al sorts of plantations in the wrong locations there's a lot about a certain brand of pure orange juice.
Interesting link and you are so right it doesn't seem fair and it isn't.
Hi Jerry
I didn't realise about the migratory bees but had heard that avocados may not be vegan but didn't know why.
In the second article it mentions about other crops (copied and pasted below):
QI failed to bring to light that it isn’t just crops like avocados and almonds that rely on commercial beekeeping. According to the New Agriculturalist and the American Beekeeping Federation, beans, tomatoes, apples, broccoli, melons, carrots, onions, and hundreds of other fruits, vegetables, and grains are also pollinated by bees bred for commercial purposes. If we took Toksvig’s comment at face value, then it would limit our diet to a dangerous few food sources. Once more, the definition of veganism means doing your absolute best according to what’s practical and possible – we need to draw a line somewhere'
Unfortunately it's not possible to limit out fruit and vegetables to dangerous levels as we wouldn't be getting the vitamins and minerals needed for our bodies.
Another paragraph in the second article says:
'Every year, more than 50 billion land animals are bred for their meat, milk, or eggs. Whilst we cannot guarantee that no animals were exploited to pollinate the crops we eat, no avocado or almond farm comes close to the destruction that animal-related agriculture comes to'
I think what we have to do is carry on doing what we are doing by showing the authorities 'powers that be' that we are not happy with the way in which our food is produced and not happy about the treatment of animals. I will continue to sign petitions, write to my MP/Prime Minister to tell them I'm not happy, we need to make our voices heard. I think, as a Vegan, I am making a difference not only to my own health but to the health and happiness of animals and the planet.
Trouble with today's society is we want more and more and it's total greed. When I saw a recent programme on TV they highlighted the farms in America, the way in which the cattle was kept was intolerable. Also, there was a sign on a Diner saying '72oz steak', that's a ridiculous amount, it's not a wonder why the world is like it is. I also saw a video yesterday that had been sent to me, it was either Veganuary or One Green Planet and it was a cow running after a truck that had just collected her calves, it was heartbreaking.
To sum up, today's society is pure greed and want, want, want.
It certainly doesn't look like it's just avocados. It's a minefield out there and sometimes you don't know whether you are doing right from wrong - exasperating!
It does seem strange it's just avocados that are highlighted and I don't know why.
We can't keep cutting things out of our diet as we'd end up very short of nutrients. What should happen though are the practices of farming that seriously need to be looked at and in that I include the use of pesticides on fruit and vegetables.
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Hi Alicia, what I don't understand is why don't they have other bee friendly plants so the bees have a permanent new home, some might like living in California then...🐝 🌴
It is greed and it is a poor testament to us.
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I totally agree with you Jerry and I don't understand either, I thought that bees were common and most countries, that have the right climate, have their own species of bees.
The organisations, whoever they are, are not open and honest with us and we do not know what happens, they seem to have their own rules and just don't care about the consequences.
It certainly is greed and a very poor testament. Greed and more greed, that's what it seems to be. It seems to be a society of it's there and I want it. When I was a child if my mum wanted something she worked hard and saved for it until she was able to have it and this also applied to certain foods. We have everything these days, now I do sound old.
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Hi Alicia your mum brought you up well as you appreciate things and value them and don't need to over consume.
I said to my son that my generation tried to give his generation everything and it feels as if we've given them nothing...
Your mum would be very proud of you.
Jerry 😊
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Thank you Jerry. If you over consume you do not appreciate the simple things in life like enjoying nature. Every thing these days seems to be rushing around, never time to ourselves and consumed by how many emails we have rather than enjoying the simple things in life.
It does feel like that doesn't it. Unfortunately we've only gone along with what was available to us at the time and we now know that maybe wasn't a good thing i.e. when my youngest daughter was around 1 1/2 years' old I bought some disposable nappies as it was the 'new' thing and I thought at the time it would save on time, how wrong I was. The terry nappies I had before that didn't take any more time at all, they were very easy to wash. My youngest daughter is now seeing for herself what a wasteful society we are and her and her husband do their upmost not to waste i.e. they don't waste food etc. My son-in-law is very concerned about the planet and is very conscious of what he buys etc.
I used to work in a fruit and vegetable shop when I was a teenager and the only plastic was a 5lb bag of potatoes (unfortunately that was the start of the plastic downfall), all other fruits and vegetables were bought and put in paper bags or straight into shopping bags. I'd happily have loose fruit and veg in my bag, I don't want plastic.
Thank you, my mum was a wonderful person.
Alicia
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Here’s an interesting statistic and again not fair, the richest 20% of the worlds population consume 86% of the worlds resources leaving 14% for the remaining 80%
I think we have to take this on board instead of wanting more, because sometimes less is more...
Your daughter and son in law have your great values Alicia and that’s what counts.
Jerry 😊
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Very interesting Jerry and if I'm going to be honest, a worry. We should not be seeing people begging on streets, this isn't right.
We do need to take this on board instead of constantly wanting more and more, less is definitely more as loving and appreciating someone is free and that's worth far more than any material thing.
Thank you, they are very good and do not waste anything. If my granddaughters have grown out of some toys then my daughter will sell them and then use that money for something they may need.
The motto of the day, be kind and respect each other, that counts for a lot.
I’m not vegan but try to be as ethical as possible in my choices. Some time ago I chose to avoid products that were farmed so intensely they were almost unnatural. Almonds, soya and virtually anything grown in the USA were removed from my list. I didn’t realise avocados too should be on the list. My sister in Crete has an avocado tree and they are just like any other fruit there so I guess we can source good ones seasonally. One of my switches was to oat milk as the oats are grown nearer to home. I love it and would recommend it to anyone wanting to move away from almond milk.
I haven’t used a supermarket for years. I only eat vegetables that are in season and grown locally, although I do like exotic vegetables, I won’t buy them if they have been grown somewhere like Kenya. I live in Britain and now we are making good quality organic wines I am happy to buy British. And I think Scotland grow the best raspberries ever. Anything bought out of season is tasteless, to me. And there are probably lots of almonds and olives which have been grown as they have for centuries. Pay the price don’t go for cheap, as I guess these are the ones which are being massed produced. And while ever we keep buying them they will continue to grow them. We all eat too much, if we all ate less maybe there wouldn’t be the need for mass production. I’m no expert, it’s just my opinion. I visited a supermarket over the Christmas period for a carton of cream, everyone was processed except one and it was a slightly smaller carton than I normally buy but 50 pence more expensive. Who said supermarkets are cheap and offer choice?
Hey good for you Lesley1234567 supermarkets are one stop shops and have lost leaders but aren't always good value just convenient.
I love raspberries and we used to grow our own when I was a child and they were the best.
We are encouraged to consume and then consume some more and In the UK alone 1.9 million tonnes of food is wasted annually...
We don't have camps like the US do, but there has been a very noticeable increase in the numbers of people sleeping on the streets. They don't tend to sleep out in the open as much here, as the weather is unreliable.
We do have homeless begging on the streets Hidden and we have volunteers working in soup kitchens to keep the homeless fed. People also donate clothing for the homeless to keep them warmer in the winter. The homeless quite often sleep in doorways, car parks and any other place they can find, some might be fortunate and be taken in by a homeless shelter but we don't have camps here. It does seem to be becoming more and more common here now. I don't know about the rest of Europe and if they have the same problems.
That's awful to treat people with mental health that way. Problem I know for you in America is that of course you don't have an NHS. Our NHS is stretched but they do their absolute best to try and help as many people as they can and mental health here is being talked about more and more and there is less of a stigma which is a very good thing.
Media only tell you what they want to unfortunately.
We waste very little, however, over Christmas food was brought to us but as it didn’t get eaten and it was t what we wouldn’t eat I had to throw it out. I hated doing so but it had been opened and part used.
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