Diabetes and High Carb diet

[andyswarbs]

Yesterday Plant Based News posted a video on youtube entitled HOW TO REVERSE T2 DIABETES - NHS APPROVES, which talks about the benefits of a high carb, high fibre, plant-based diet on diabetes 2, based on research recently published with great results. To watch visit youtube.com/watch?v=GWwyK5U2ZhY

[Zest]

Hi Andy,

I shall watch this later today.

Hope you're enjoying your weekend so far.

Zest

[Rignold Keto]

There is a very good page here from diabetes uk on the benefits of a ketogenic diet for tackling diabetes’s

[andyswarbs in reply to Rignold]

As I have said, based on studies which are short term. I looked at one keto research paper claiming long term - 24 months I think. To my mind long term starts at around 5 years, or 60 months. Keto diets do work in the short term, but my main point is long term outcomes are bad news. Show me good studies of keto over 5 years and I will listen!

[Praveen55 Star in reply to andyswarbs]

I am very keen about knowing some genuine adverse effects of Ketogenic Diet in the long or short term for T2D. Ketogenic means low carb approach not zero carb. So far, whatever criticisms I have come across seem to be speculations only. I am not against Vegan or any other approach which helps deal with T2D. My point is in order to prove something good it is not necessary to prove some thing bad. There can be more than one approach which may be helpful and we should be open all ideas.

[andyswarbs in reply to Praveen55]

Good long term studies following people through decades. We took part in the Oxford Epic Study, filling in reports each year. I think it is that kind of study over a large population that helps really understand outcomes. Sadly when the Epic study ran there were few vegans so drawing conclusions is difficult. We took part and classed ourselves as vegetarians, though my wife also ate fish on and off.

[Rignold Keto]

Well that is probably because most people do not stay in ketosis indefinitely. They cycle keto. You could check out Dr Eric Kossof of Hopkins Children’s hospital who did a 15 year study of the long term effects of keto

[andyswarbs in reply to Rignold]

As a father who lost his 24 year old daughter in 2011 to epilepsy (forjane.co.uk/) I have a strong interest in Epilepsy. Had I known about keto at the time I might have encouraged our daughter in that direction. It was never mentioned by doctors, which is interesting.

Because keto has been shown to help avoid seizures in children I am not sure how that provides momentum to a general population to adopt the same kind of lifestyle. Can you enlighten me?

[BadHare in reply to andyswarbs]

That's very sad, Andy, I'm so sorry that happened to your daughter.

[Penel in reply to andyswarbs]

I’m very sorry to hear about your daughter, andyswarbs. The Keto diet is offered to children in the UK but is not available for adults on the NHS. They take the view that this is an unproven diet. A modified Atkins diet is now often used in place of the original diet.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the ketogenic diet is recommended as a potential lifestyle. The suggestion is that a low carb diet can help reverse diabetes, and that a short time in ketosis can be an additional help.

There have been several enlightening TV programs on the successful use of low carb diets. You may consider these as mere money making schemes, but the presenters were qualified doctors, presenting a different view to the official line.

Anecdotally my husband reversed his slide to type 2 by cutting down on carbs generally, and then by being careful to keep to a few high fibre ones. Our doctor is quite happy with all his blood works.

[JGBH in reply to Penel]

Indeed if carbs are pulses then this is much better. There was a programme on Radio 4 just before lunch today, whereby a medical researcher of over 33 years of research spoke about that subject. He was/is a runner and used to believe carbs were the root to good health and energy... However he found that a diet lower in carbs - but mostly pulses - was much healthier, together with eating much fish and some liver and a mediterranean diet was far more healthy. He mentioned a study carried out fairly recently on overweight Spaniards. One needs to be wary of some so-called research works... and need to interpret the conclusion factually.

[andyswarbs in reply to JGBH]

From the athletic point of view you might be interested in The Game Changers, directed by James Cameron that is coming out soon. Here's the trailer

youtube.com/watch?v=V1VTaCV...(Not working as expected?)

[andyswarbs in reply to Penel]

My daughter had epilepsy from age 6.

I decide for myself what I think the right answers are to my blood tests. Sometimes doctors assume that the average is okay, whereas the average in a population with a lot of sick people in is not an average that interests me. I am keen on rebuilding my telomeres and at my age that can only be done with rigorous attention to a totally optimised diet. Doing this is my best chance of being fit & healthy when I am 100.

[Penel in reply to andyswarbs]

It seems unlikely that doctors would go with an ‘average score’, it would be constantly changing! The recommended healthy levels on blood sugar and cholesterol have been repeatedly reduced over the years.

Hope your diet does extend your health and longevity. My granddad was a meat and potatoes man, who refused to give up his roll-ups, and lived to be a sprightly 95. Not a life-style I would advocate or follow!

[Praveen55 Star in reply to Penel]

I fully agree with all your comments. I have brought my blood sugar levels within non-diabetic range within three months following KETO. My body weight dropped by 13 kg within the same period. Overall, I feel much much better without any hunger pangs between the meals. With traditional carb-rich diet, I needed to eat something every 2/3 hours.

[suramo Star in reply to Penel]

Penel

Yes. Low carb diet is the key to reverse type 2 diabetes. Scientific too. We type 2 diabetics can't clear glucose from our blood and carbs taken in whatever form - complex or simple sugar - are ultimately converted to glucose in the digestive track. Complex carbs raise blood glucose levels slowly, but ultimately our body has to clear that carb load. Keto diet is the answer because high protein diet is not recommended for humans for certain reasons. One should look for ketogenic ratio. The problem with keto diet is low blood glucose which our body takes very long time to adapt. Low blood glucose causing weakness, dizziness, heaviness in brain and physical intolerance. Our body can run on two fuels. Glucose and ketone bodies, but glucose is the preferred fuel though ketones more efficient weight by weightt. True. We need to have long studies. People have not only reversed their type 2 diabetes by getting rid of insulin pricks, but also maintained very low a1c - below 5 with the lchf/keto diet.

Also, I don't agree with the plant based high carb diet. It's not mentioned in the video how that diet reverses IR. Legumes barring a few like kidney and lima beans contain 60% carbs with 18% proteins. Too high for type 2 diabetics.

[andyswarbs in reply to suramo]

Where is the science. I want long-term (5 years plus) papers peer-reviewed not paid for by meat / dairy industry.

Yes I know there are lots of short term papers. That's where HFLC scores well.

[suramo Star in reply to andyswarbs]

andyswarbs

There is a science. I have mentioned in my post. High carb plant based diet can't be the answer. There are many on the forum on keto diet maintaining there a1c well under control. Why 5 year trial ? If someone fails on ketogenic diet it's not the science but the failure of that person to keep taking keto diet. Sometimes we think that we are on keto diet but if we map on charts actually we are taking lots of carbs. This is my personal experience.

[andyswarbs in reply to suramo]

Keto is hard to maintain, that's part of the problem. You have to watch everything you eat very closely and if you drop off the wagon a bit the it can take weeks if not months to get on target again. But to blame individuals for the inherent design faults of the Keto is a very cruel aspect of the diet.

To provide a balance to the argument. Let me comment on my own lifestyle.

There are people who fail on a vegan diet. Typically these are people early in the transition who have not yet further transitioned towards a whole-food plant-based and/or they have health issues that have seriously compromised their digestive system, eg IBS, thyroid and so forth. These people need specialist medical support, imo.

Other than that a vegan lifestyle is very easy to adapt to. There is no calorie counting (unless you are seriously under/overweight and again that should have medical supervision regardless of diet.) You can eat as much as you like at each and every meal. There is no nutritional deficit, apart from B12 - and everyone should be getting their B12 checked.

But most importantly with a vegan lifestyle there is no yo-yoing caused by the diet itself.

[suramo Star in reply to andyswarbs]

andyswarbs

Very right. Keto diet is very difficult to maintain. But if one goes off a train once in a while it doesn't derail the one. As soon as one starts taking keto back on the track again.

What's the source of proteins for vegan diet ? Legumes have as high as 60% carbs and just 18-20% proteins. So more grains and legumes one eats more carbs one takes. Also what about essential amino acids ?

[andyswarbs in reply to suramo]

In a vegan diet the source of proteins is ANY and ALL plant foods. Broccoli for example has more protein per calorie than steak, and for anyone who is counting calories that's more relevant than per gram.

High sources of protein per gram are nuts, seeds, legumes, grains etc. Notably high sources are quinoa, rice, tofu etc.

However the good news on a plant based diet is one never, ever has to worry about protein. Just get sufficient calories for body/age/weight/sex/exercise and protein levels are guaranteed.

[Penel in reply to andyswarbs]

Broccoli really doesn’t have more protein than streak.

eathropology.com/2013/04/08...

[andyswarbs in reply to Penel]

According to Dr Joel Fuhrman, from whence this claim is made, " The data we used was from a listed cut of meat with 1/4 inch fat edge, which was the way the government reported it back then when the book was written years ago, now the government analysis site and more reference works use 1/8 inch of fat around it."

You can read his full posting on the subject at facebook.com/drfuhrman/post...

I did my own assessment at cronometer.com...

The first steak I chose (was cubed beefsteak. the first on the list. Broccoli raw, 1 cup provides 24.1 kcal and 2g of protein, whereas cubed beefsteak, 1 oz provides 57.8 kcal and 8.7g protein which shows that this particular steak has about twice the protein. So in this case you would be right.

However then I chose Swiss Steak (whatever that is) it has a quarter the protein of cubed beefsteak and so broccoli would have twice the amount of protein.

Whatever, as for the rest of society, broccoli is just part of my varied diet, not the entirety. For the last three days I have eaten a whole broccoli head each day. But I also had my porridge and some kind of mixed legume & veg dish for dinner along with fruit.