German gov moves towards banning meat at functions

[andyswarbs]

The huffington post reports the german government's department for the environment is taking a lead and banning meat & fish at all functions.

huffingtonpost.com/entry/ge...

[TheAwfulToad]

The world is going mad. Animal agriculture is not "a leading cause of climate change and environmental degradation". Raising animals as if they're things, in factories, might well be; but agriculture is not. You cannot, in fact, operate a successful and sustainable farm without animals. It's ecologically impossible. The problem is that most politicians know so little about farming and ecology that you'd need to sit them down and start from the ABC basics to get this through to them.

[andyswarbs in reply to TheAwfulToad]

While it is not common for farms to not use animals for the long term health of the ground, that does not mean it is ecologically impossible. From a quick google seedthecommons.org/spoke-an... is one in Oregon.

A quote from the website, "We have a whole mythology around using animals in agriculture, for land clearing, fertilizer, labor, et cetera. It’s true to an extent, of course, but we ascribe greater importance to their use than is realistic."

[TheAwfulToad in reply to andyswarbs]

No, sorry, it is impossible. Without them, you have to import soil fertility. Yes, you can do the 'vegan' thing on a small scale, but it would be disastrous if everyone did it. I don't even understand how a vegan farm somehow advances the agenda of animal welfare.

That guy already acknowledges that he has billions of little animals working for him, but I think he fundamentally misunderstands the role of animals in energy- and materials-scavenging, and he buys into the big-ag idea that animal manure is "waste". It isn't. It's their principal economic output, as farmers fully understood before governments started subsidizing NPK and allowing CAFO owners to create manure lagoons.

He is correct, of course, that chemical-fed animal-rearing is as bad as (worse than?) chemical-fed vegetable farming, but I don't think anyone seriously debates that (even the people doing it don't like it very much). All I'm suggesting here is that, along with the earthworms and rodents and spiders that contribute their "waste" and their dead bodies to the natural cycle, we re-introduce an appropriate number of other species to fill the ecological niches that are currently verboten on farms (including, I note, Spoke and Leaf). Chickens can replace birds. Cows or goats can replace deer. The pressure they place on vegetation and on other species, and their "waste", is what keeps the farm alive.

[andyswarbs in reply to TheAwfulToad]

I have absolutely no problem with having well loved animals on a farm that are not sent for slaughter. The more and greater variety the merrier. I do not see having such animals on a farm as being non-vegan, especially if the farm is run as an animal sanctuary.

[Rignold Keto in reply to andyswarbs]

lol. running a farm as an animal sanctuary? As opposed to run as a farm?

I think you are confusing farm animals and pets

[andyswarbs in reply to Rignold]

Yes it really happens! vegansociety.com/whats-new/...

[TheAwfulToad in reply to andyswarbs]

Farming is all about death. Dying and decomposition is what fuels the next generation. We humans have predators too - very small ones - and they will take us one way or the other and return the nutrients that we've borrowed back to the soil. That is the way things should be.

The guy at Spoke and Leaf is deliberately ignoring the carnage that goes on under his nose - an orgy of dying and killing among the smaller denizens of his farm - because they're not cute and furry and doe-eyed. He is also ignoring the deaths and stress he inadvertently causes (eg., by destroying the habitats of animals he doesn't like). My farm is full of "micro-livestock": insects, invertebrates, toads, snails, reptiles, and the occasional mammal. I love the fact that they are there, and I take pains to make sure I don't hurt them. But I'm under no illusions as to what they're doing to each other.

If some people don't want to eat animals, that's fine. But it's perfectly possible to raise an animal for its productive value - labour, eggs, manure, meat - while allowing it to have a fulfilling animal life. Joel Salatin speaks of "expressing the pigness of the pig"; his point is that pigs are not humans, and what they want from life is not just different from what we want, we complement each other. It's a rather horrible way that we DO complement each other - as predator and prey - but somehow that keeps both of our species ticking along nicely.

What are your thoughts on euthanasia? Animals don't all die in their beds surrounded by family and friends, you know.

[andyswarbs in reply to TheAwfulToad]

In the inside of our guts are trillions of bacteria. These live and die daily. We live in symbiosis - that is they could not survive without us, and we cannot survive without them. What we human poop is largely that bacteria - naturally full of Vitamin B12, btw. However in today's sanitised life it is all flushed down the toilet rather than returning to the land. I am not advocated large-scale people pooping anywhere. Rather that we recognise that we live in a society where hygiene is appreciated.

So I think euthanasia for both humans and animals is acceptable in certain circumstances. There is vegan debate about the rightness of "owning" animals. Right now I draw the line at intentional killing for recreation, food, medicine etc. Accidental killing and killing out of kindness to reduce suffering I do not have a problem with. Where justified I would take part in that without hesitation.

[Rignold Keto in reply to andyswarbs]

Now that we no longer have our smallholding, the majority of the meat my family eat is wild meat: rabbits, pigeons, deer, game birds etc. 90% of which are shot on the farmed land of a large local producer of vegetables who supply one of those veg box schemes and the local health food shops. The irony of this is the local Vegas are able to eat their salads because we are eating the animals that would have otherwise laid waste to them.

[TheAwfulToad in reply to Rignold]

Rignold , what happened to your smallholding? Was it not working out or did you just sell it and move on?

[TheAwfulToad in reply to andyswarbs]

>> What we human poop is largely that bacteria - naturally full of Vitamin B12, btw. However in today's sanitised life it is all flushed down the toilet rather than returning to the land.

Animals likewise.

I completely agree with you about this btw; it's absolutely disgraceful how modernity labels valuable stuff as "waste" (hence my drawing a distinction between CAFOs and pastured animals). I have a composting toilet on my farm. I'm part of the livestock

>> Right now I draw the line at intentional killing for recreation, food, medicine etc. Accidental killing and killing out of kindness to reduce suffering I do not have a problem with.

OK. I understand that everyone has their own line and it's necessarily an arbitrary one. I was really just pointing out that all farming involves intentional killing. Vegans who eat "conventionally raised" food are complicit in an agricultural armageddon. Natural farmers do try to recognise the positive role of death in nature, while the chemical-fed version just assumes that if something looks like it's still moving, it's best to kill it.

Also worth mentioning that the average life of (say) a wild pig is nasty, brutish and short: while a pig might live to 20 years or more as a pet, it would normally die of disease or injury around the 5 year mark under normal circumstances. Chickens wouldn't last five minutes without an electric fence around them. So farmers like myself make a sort of bargain with the animal: we'll give you a life in which you can do everything a pig or a chicken would normally do, for as long as it would normally do them, without any fear or stress. And then we'll eat you. As far as we know, an animal can't comprehend contracts, but it seems to work out.

[andyswarbs in reply to TheAwfulToad]

I wish I had a composting toilet. Very jealous.

My nephew has a farm 80+ acres on the banks of Snowdon. He has a 3-sided composting toilet with a view... of Snowdon. He also has a range of animals including two pigs.

I have no problems that whilst the animals are alive most farmers look after their animals with great respect and love. The BIG problem for me is the complete ignorance of people shopping in supermarkets. Buying things in plastic that intentionally have no connection with the mass slaughter that goes on in slaughterhouses. If slaughterhouses had glass walls... But they don't and most meat eaters don't want to know.

[Rignold Keto in reply to andyswarbs]

Have you ever been in a slaughterhouse, Andy?

[andyswarbs in reply to Rignold]

Rignold, nope. But I am seriously considering it. If I can organise a visit then I will. You are right that personal experience is everything.

In the meantime I have watched the documentary Earthling Ed's Land of Hope and Glory documentary on youtube which goes into video detail in the UK in recent years. This even includes so called RSPCA approved footage! Also the film Earthlings I have never succeeded in watching from beginning to end. I simply haven't. I even tried again a couple of nights ago, but I find the footage just too horrendous and have to simply watch something like a comedy to take my mind off it.

Coming out next month is a new Australian film Dominion, which shows, from my reading of the trailer leads us to understand the sheer unstoppable scale of the meat and dairy industry.

I am not posting links to these because they contain very graphic footage.

[BadHare in reply to andyswarbs]

You'd need a big garden! My friend's is great, providing the wind doesn't change direction.

[BadHare in reply to TheAwfulToad]

I'm sure it's not practice to have only Veg*ns working for the German Environmental agency, but I'm pleased they've taken a lead towards setting an example by reducing their environmental footprint. More plant based food can be grown per hectare from arable farming, however we can't grow arable foods successfully on upland areas where soils are too thin or of poor quality, or areas with very high rainfall.

An issue for me, aside from factory farming & subsequent toxic waste from poor quality animal feed that cannot be used as manure fertiliser, is keeping animals on good arable farmland, all the time, rather than in places where crops cannot be grown, This seems somewhat wasteful when the UK has a food,footprint 2.5 times it's capacity, & so much is imported. I don't know what the statistics are for Germany, but perhaps they're thinking of food security, ie, producing more of their own, rather than relying on imports, which is going to get more expensive as resource costs rise. Until relatively recently, a small number of animals would be kept on arable land, & used in crop rotation, which tends to be practice solely on organic farms in the UK, these days.

[TheAwfulToad in reply to BadHare]

>> An issue for me, aside from factory farming & subsequent toxic waste from poor quality animal feed that cannot be used as manure fertiliser, is keeping animals on good arable farmland, all the time, rather than in places where crops cannot be grown, This seems somewhat wasteful

That's exactly the point. Food is currently grown only on land that's suitable for factory-style production, ie., flat, so it can be worked with machines and won't erode too fast if ploughed. The obvious solution is: don't use machines, and don't plough. The economic return on those vast acreages is pitiful; in many cases it's actually negative (hence farming subsidies). Intensive organic farming with animals on non-standard land configurations is much, much more profitable, delivers literally 2-8 times the output per unit area, and yields higher-quality produce. Using these methods, you could probably double the amount of land suitable for farming and increase overall output by a factor of four. That's a conservative estimate: using state-of-the-art modern methods and phasing-out factory farming completely, a factor of ten would be feasible.

[BadHare in reply to TheAwfulToad]

That's the opposite of my point, There's still not enough land available to feed everyone on a ketogenic diet. Where do I get my cavolo, peas, & broad beans?

[TheAwfulToad in reply to BadHare]

Ah, I just read it again - yeah, I misunderstood what you meant.

This issue is very complicated, but there absolutely is enough land to feed the entire population of the UK, on keto or anything else, with animals on free-range.

The typical factory-farmed animal occupies a bigger ecological footprint than a (well-managed) free-range animal. That's because they basically eat human food, mostly corn and soy, grown in vast monocrops that make very poor use of the available land area. Add to that crop footprint all the hassle of harvesting the feed, processing it, transporting it to the CAFOs, and then hauling the manure away: it's just a joke. Why anyone ever imagined this is a clever idea is beyond me.

Now, if you put a chicken or a pig out on rough forage, it'll get maybe 20% of its feed requirement all by itself. Here's the thing though: over time, the activity of the animal will improve the soil to the point where you can plant suitable feeds behind them (preferably with a base layer of perennials). A well-managed rotating paddock system will allow the animal to forage 80% of its requirements. Once improved, you can also take part of the forage area out of the rotation and grow human food on it. Or, you can simply run the animals through a perennial tree crop: Jamón ibérico is produced using this sort of method; English farmers used to run pigs through orchards (I think this is now illegal, as is almost anything that threatens Big Ag's idea of "best practice").

In other words, it's the factory-farmed animals which are taking up prime "arable" land; naturally-managed animals not only make good use of marginal land, they actually turn that land into cropland. Mixed farming vastly increases the available land area for cropping, and that means more meat and more veg for everyone, even the vegans.

[BadHare in reply to TheAwfulToad]

The issue is very complicated, & unfortunately run to the benefit of big agriculture's profits, never smaller farmers. Common sense & ecology doesn't come into best practice, when food subsidies are at stake. Something positive needs to happen, & soon, though I don't imagine anything will improve post Brexit.

I had no idea farmers couldn't keep critters in orchards any more, which seems like a rather daft misuse of land. However, upland areas such as The Lake District, highland Scotland & Wales, & much of The Pennines will never make arable land even with another thousand years of critter fertiliser as the climate's as unsuitable as the soil.

[andyswarbs in reply to BadHare]

On a radio 4 program yesterday one aside comment was that just 10 companies dominate 90% of the produce we eat. That is some serious lobbying power inside each and all governments at work at all levels.

[BadHare in reply to andyswarbs]

I'm unsure if this will open: qbn.com/topics/674044/

I try to avoid them as much as possible, but it's not always.

Dissappointed to read Pukka have been taken over by Unilever, so it's getting hard to escape.

[TheAwfulToad in reply to BadHare]

>> I don't imagine anything will improve post Brexit.

I hoped that it might, but I think you're right - not much will change.

It did occur to me that natural farmers could break the factory-farmed meat industry simply by undercutting them on cost, ie., selling meat as a loss leader. This works because the meat value of, say, a pastured dual-purpose chicken represents only about 15% of its lifetime output (the rest being 'ecosystem services' and eggs), so you could sell it at cost (ie., cost of slaughtering and packaging) without any real impact on your bottom line.

Given a critical mass of farmers taking part, both the broiler business and the battery eggs business would simply be priced out of the market, because they leverage only a small part of the total worth of a chicken and therefore have no way to reduce their costs.

>> The Lake District, highland Scotland & Wales, & much of The Pennines will never make arable land even with another thousand years of critter fertiliser as the climate's as unsuitable as the soil.

Some of it is highly acidic, so yes, your choice of crops is very limited. OTOH there are things like blueberries that would thrive in such areas: it's just a case of picking the right plant. Climate isn't a problem: again, the issue is simply picking the right plant. There's a Canadian guy (Jean-Martin Fortier) who operates a very successful market garden operation in a very unpromising climate.

[BadHare in reply to TheAwfulToad]

Blueberry farms might look more attractive than Forestry Comission plots.

[Penel in reply to TheAwfulToad]

Pigs are still allowed in orchards in the UK, thank goodness!

[andyswarbs in reply to TheAwfulToad]

The impossible defied. A list of UK veganic farms.

Tolhurst Organic Produce, 2 W Lodge, Hardwick, Reading, West Berkshire RG8 7RB

Email: [e-mail] tolhurstorganic.co.uk

Growing With Nature, Bradshaw Lane Nursery, Bradshaw Lane, Pilling, Preston, Lancashire PR3 6AX

Email: [e-mail]; growing-with-nature.co.uk

Growing with Grace, Clapham Nursery, Station Road, Clapham, North Yorkshire, LA2 8ER.

Email: [e-mail] growingwithgrace.org.uk

Chyan Community Field, Halvasso, Penryn, Cornwall, TR10 9BT.

Email: [e-mail] chyan.org.

Scilly Organics, Blackbirds Perch, St Martins, Isles of Scilly,

Email: [e-mail] scillyorganics.com

Beans and Herbs, The Herbary, 161 Chapel Street, Horningsham, Warminster, Wiltshire BA12 7LU

Email: [e-mail] beansandherbs.co.uk

Drimlabarra Herb Farm, The Avalach Centre For Plant Study, Kildonan, Isle of Arran, KA27 8SE, Scotland

Email: [e-mail]; [e-mail] veganherbal.com ,

Centre for Alternative Technology (CAT), Llwyngwern Quarry, Pantperthog, Machynlleth, Powys SY20 9AZ

Email: [e-mail] cat.org.uk,

Highfield Eco Allotment Project (HEAP) Levenshulme, Manchester

Moss Brook Growers, near Glazebury , nr Leigh, Cheshire

Email: [e-mail] mossbrookgrowers.co.uk

Welheath Co-op, North Wales

Email: [e-mail] welhealth.org

Plants For A Future, The Field, St Veep, Lostwithiel, Cornwall, PL22 0QJ

Email: [e-mail] pfaf.org

Fir Tree Community Growers, St Helens, Merseyside WA11 8RG,

Email: [e-mail] Web: facebook.com/FirTreeCommuni...

Debdale Eco Centre, Waterside Gardens, 1075 Hyde Road, Debdale Park, Gorton, Manchester M18 7LJ

Email: [e-mail] debdale-ecocentre.org.uk

Karen Williams Bryn Halen Isaf, Melin-y-Wig, CORWEN LL21 9RD

Email: [e-mail] Web: facebook.com/pages/Dancing-...

Brook End, Castlebrook, Compton Dundon, Somerset, TA11 6PR

Email: [Nicole Vosper] [e-mail] wildheartpermaculture.org.uk

Hulme Garden Centre, 28 Old Birley Street, St. George's, Manchester M15 5RG

Email: [e-mail] hulmegardencentre.org.uk

The Kindling Trust, FarmStart, Abbey Leys Farm, Peacock Lane, Knutsford, Cheshire WA16 6NS

Email: [e-mail] kindling.org.uk,

Highland Future Food, Rangag, Latheron, Scotland, KW5 6DX

Email: [e-mail] highland-futurefood.com

Stephen Briggs, Bluebell Farms Ltd, Whitehall Farm, Farcet, Peterborough, PE7 3DR

Email: [e-mail]

Shumei Natural Agriculture, 3 Yatesbury House Farm Cottages, Yatesbury, Calne, Wiltshire SN11 8YG

Email: [e-mail] Web: shumei.eu/yatesbury/

Aske Organic Farm, Coolafancy Tinahely Co. Wicklow.Ireland.

Email: [e-mail]

[Hidden in reply to andyswarbs]

[TheAwfulToad in reply to andyswarbs]

andyswarbs : I was just reading that the US has 38 million hectares planted to soy. It's now the US's biggest crop by area. Technically, those farms are 'vegan', surely?

Incidentally that works out at roughly 1200 square meters per American. You can feed a human (even an American) with absolutely anything you could want, raised 100% naturally (I don't like the word 'organic'), given that sort of area. The net return on a hectare of soy is about 800 euros (compared to 10,000 euros and up for a small mixed farm). Bear in mind also that all that soy is grown with the usual complement of fertilizers and poisons. This should give you some idea of how horribly inefficient the present agricultural model is, and what the logical endpoint would be if everyone took the Germans seriously.

[benwl in reply to TheAwfulToad]

But the soy crop in the US isn't increasing because of the sudden demand from people going vegan - it's from its use as animal feed.

We vegans don't want a soy monoculture any more that you do - you may think vegan food is boring but one reason it isn't is the huge range of plants to choose from and we don't want to lose that.

Saying this is a logical consequence of the German position is creating a false dichotomy as though there are only two possible positions, the monoculture and your animal based localism.

[TheAwfulToad in reply to benwl]

>> Saying this is a logical consequence of the German position is creating a false dichotomy as though there are only two possible positions, the monoculture and your animal based localism.

Not really what I meant. My point was that politicians know nothing about farming, so they will point at soy monocrops and say, look, we're growing vegetable protein instead of raising animals, and that's going to reduce our ecological footprint, aren't we clever, vote for us (and most of them will actually believe their own nonsense).

The vast majority of the electorate will take this at face value, simply because they don't know any different. BIg Ag will exploit universal ignorance of farming to reinforce their position: more monocrops, more fertilizers, more pesticides. I do realise that people like yourself and andyswarbs would be no happier about this than I would; but the government will play dumb and say: hang on guys, we're only doing what you asked us to do.

Unless you can think of an in-between position, there actually ARE only two positions: the right way and the wrong way. Monocultures and factory-farmed animals have absolutely nothing to recommend them, either economically or ecologically. Sustainable, natural farming has many variants, but it's always recognisable as such. The acid test is fairly simple: is this farm likely to be here in 50 years time, looking much as it does today, whatever happens to the banks or the government or the oil companies; or is it likely to "break" if civilisation disappears up its own fundament?

[andyswarbs in reply to TheAwfulToad]

An ideal vegan world would have farmers growing a very wide range of crops, rather than just the usual you see in any supermarket. For instance, why not 10 or more different varieties of courgettes? Our local organic veg shop has 4 varieties of carrots.

Let's get rid of monoculture, that's for sure. Get rid of possibly 90% of soy crops and grow some real veg instead. This would significantly rebuild diversity in this planet. Diversity is so good for animals, good for humans, good for the planet.

[Rignold Keto]

* makes mental note to decline invitations to official functions from the German dept of the environment

[BadHare in reply to Rignold]

Eating a meat free meal now & again really doesn't hurt, Rignold !

[Rignold Keto in reply to BadHare]

I eat a great number of meat-free meals @BadHare

I like to have the choice however

[BadHare in reply to Rignold]

People have the choice whether to go to a function.

My last big birthday party, as previous events, was veggie. One friend took her daughter to McDonald's on the way, just to keep her happy, then said she's not needed to do so. I assumed her daughter thought there would be only lettuce to eat. A rather unpleasant relative threw a tantrum because she didn't think she should be denied eating meat for a few hours, which seemed rather silly.

[Rignold Keto in reply to BadHare]

If you look at my original coment, it was that I was going to choose not to attend the dozens of functions to which i am invited by the German environment ministry.

[deejames]

I am so impressed. Hope others follow

[TheAwfulToad in reply to deejames]

Was that sarcasm or do you mean it? If the latter, why do you feel this is a positive move?

[Activity2004 Administrator in reply to TheAwfulToad]

TheAwfulToad ,

deejames wasn't being sarcastic. It was an opinion.

[TheAwfulToad in reply to Activity2004]

Might have been, but it's hard to tell without emoticons. Hence the question.

[Activity2004 Administrator in reply to TheAwfulToad]

Don't worry about it. It's all good!

[deejames]

People need to be examining eating habits and part of that should be a reduction in the amount of meat in the diet. The planet cannot sustain meat eating on the scale it is at present and certainly not as the population grows. Apart from the issue of the amount of land required to produce meat protein as opposed to vegetable protein, animal welfare is without a doubt compromised with mass production.

So yes I applaud moves which bring this subject to the forefront of public debate.

I do not envisage a time when the entire planet is vegetarian but by reducing the amount of meat we all eat considerably then the quality of that meat and the conditions it is produced in will be greatly improved and the ability of the planet to feed all its people properly will be enhanced.

[Activity2004 Administrator in reply to deejames]

This makes perfect sense, deejames . Thank you for letting us know about it.

[benwl in reply to deejames]

Thank you, that's a very nice way of putting it.

[BadHare]

What's this vegan agenda, Hidden ?

[andyswarbs]

You know behind almost everyone who is a vegan is a person who was a meat eater. Whilst they were meat eaters they would have also talked about "vegan agendas", if they ever heard the term vegan that is.

I ate meat until I was nearly 30 years old. After that for the next 40 years I was a vegetarian with a love for cheese. So I am no saint.

I woke up to animal cruelty in 1979 when a load of turkeys was spilled across the road when a lorry overturned one Christmas. That was it. That was my life changing moment. They were so sad and could not fend for themselves and at that moment I saw the cruelty and wanted to be no further part in that industry.

And so I became vegetarian, for a further 40 years. It was not until my health deteriorated extremely rapidly that I was forced to become a vegan. The ensuing recovery has not only resolved my arthritis challenges but it has corrected so many other health issues.

For instance after a lifetime of bleeding gums (with lots of hygienist visits) now my gums simply do not bleed. Why is this? I see report after report of someone turning vegan and finding they get other health improvements they never asked for.

Is that worth talking about here, or should I just keep it to myself?

[TheAwfulToad in reply to andyswarbs]

Even though I disagree with you on a few points, you clearly have something important to say, so keep saying it. If veganism works for you, then it works for you. Personally I'd hate it, although I do eat far more veg than I do meat.

I completely agree with you about the meat industry. It's unconscionable that "farmers" are allowed to do to livestock things that would land them in jail if they did it to a pet. It needs to stop. However I don't view meat-eating as inherently cruel.

[BadHare]

Clearly not pushed by absolutely everyone, including the functional medicine practitioners I follow, & frequently post on here. That aside, my largely carnivorous biomedicine & pathology lecturer stated several times that vegans live longer & have fewer health issues due to their lifestyle choices. Several of my EVS & Geography lecturers were also veg*n for ethical reasons as well as their own health.

The meat industry can be said to have as much of an agenda, except it's interests are economic rather than environmentally or humanely biased. If there's a conspiracy, it's between the food industry & big pharma, as antibiotic resistance via the meat industry is more likely to be an impending cause of much needed population decrease than eating plants.

A lot of people are waking up to the population & sustainability issues involved in their lifestyle choices, & stop eating meat as a matter of conscience. I know several vegans who have no health or fertility issues, in fact the contrary. I know no vegans who feel ill, & continue to eat a solely plant based diet. I stopped eating meat in order to feel healthier & I'm happy to supplement for micronutrients I may be deficient in, as are some omnivores. A plant based diet does not automatically mean a nutritional deficiency will follow as people usually adopt this lifestyle with support or organisations such as The Vegan Society, which has an excellent widespread peer group network.

In theory, all farm animals should be treated well, but the vast majority are not kept in conditions that look remotely like an advertisement. In addition, they're routinely treated with growth hormones, which I think contribute to human obesity, & antibiotics, which are passed up the food chain causing antibiotic resistance. It's an odd notion that penned animals could breed freely & would be left to do so, as is the concept that arable agriculture would automatically become more industrialised, seeing as most farming is already. Then there's the issue of where all the animals to feed a growing population are going to be kept on less land, with increasingly unpredictable & inclement weather.

[BadHare]

That's quite different to the predictions of over 99% of climate scientists.

[BadHare]

It's classed as climate change now. Those disputing it are funded by industries that don't want to curb emissions.

[BadHare]

I'll stick with what I learned on my EVS & Geography BSc. course rather than conspiracy theories.,

[BadHare]

That's why it's now referred to as climate change.

[veggiegirl1906]

I think it's a good move from the German government!

The environmental impact of eating meat and fish is hard to ignore - a quick google will point you to all the facts.

And to those complaining about wanting the choice to eat meat at an event? One event without meat and fish really isn't going to deprive you? I don't understand it. The majority of peoples meals consist of grains and veg (or at least they should ) with little meat, so just omitting the animal products won't really make that much difference to your day, and would save some animals lives, environmental damage and your arteries in the process.

As for the "vegan agenda" - I'm not sure what you are referring to? People are simply waking up to the benefits of veganism on an ethical, environmental and health basis.

I'm unsure why people are so offended by the government merely discussing this idea? No one is forcing you to not eat meat, just as no one is forcing you to pay for someone to slaughter animals and deplete our oceans

[deejames]

Organic grass farming whilst admirable just cannot feed the world's demands for meat, and meat at the prices expected. We must think globally and the rapidly increasing populations.

[deejames]

I think we are using vegan and vegetarian interchangeably here. I am personally advocating a big reduction in consumption of all animal products not veganism which realistically would be impossible to achieve. A vegetarian diet most days of the week would be possible I believe.

Ultimately the price of producing meat will make it beyond the means of most people except in small quantities.

[andyswarbs]

Dottie2011, it is certainly true that vegan is going viral at the moment. But then it has a huge task to get its tiny voice heard above the din of the meat industry.

- Almost every town in the world has a McDonalds pushing the "Happy" McWhatever message to children directly leading, in my opinion to children growing fatter and unhealthy before they are even adults.

- Almost every TV food program pushes a meat agenda. Doctors have little if no education in nutrition and so resort to a default "moderation" message which most people interpret as continue eating what they always did.

- Social media such as youtube is saturated with adverts for cholesterol raising foods.

- Newspapers carry extremely well funded advertisement campaigns by the meat & dairy industry.

- Lobbying by the meat & dairy industry of government is legendary, probably right into the cabinet! IMO, a more powerful lobby than the defence industry!

And against all this you have a few voices. I do what I can. But I am one person. If you look at the quantity of posts on this forum the majority are not understanding and not accepting my message and instead think they can eat saturated animal fats with no long term health or death issues.

Yes there are other plant-based people here, and there are people who are moving over. I just know that from personal experience chronic ill-health hits you without warning. The next doughnut or cream tea could be the one that break's the camel's back.

[Rignold Keto in reply to andyswarbs]

Are doughnuts made of meat?

[Rignold Keto in reply to Rignold]

Have not been able to get this idea out of my head. I am making meat doughnuts today. This was the best suggestion ever.

[TheAwfulToad in reply to Rignold]

@Rignold: we serve deepfried meatballs stuffed with mozzarella at our restaurant. Closest thing you can get to meat doughnuts

[Rignold Keto in reply to TheAwfulToad]

I sometimes make "inside-out spaghetti meatballs" for my children: this is basically a huge meatball stuffed with spaghetti, with tomato sauce over. It is quite laborious to make but they love the novelty value.

[veggiegirl1906]

I can't see that happening. Have you had a bad experience with a vegan? Is this why you believe that they are "fascists" and that there's an agenda against carnists?

I think the main reason a lot of carnists personally hate vegans is because the vegans make them question their own choices, and we all know humans are very averse to changing their habits, not matter how detrimental.

Okay. Those types of animal food may not damage arteries, but the vast majority that we as a species consume do. Not to mention the damage to innocent animals.

So yes. I think proposing that some events not serve animal products is a positive change

[deejames]

Animals going wild and breeding uncontrollablycausing chaos ? What kind of apocalyptic scenario would cause that. ?

There is not plenty of grazing land worldwide for the amounts of meat produced at the moment. Hence the swathes of rainforest chopped down to provide grazing for beef. Dairy farmers can't produce milk at the prices supermarkets pay on grass resulting the move to farming enormous herds inside barns.

This country and many of the other developed countries have a huge appetite for cheap meat. Intensive farming is the only way that appetite can be met. Meanwhile starvation and semi starvation is a fact of life for the poorer countries.

The diet people have had in the past is an irrelevance now. Our population is too large and our available agricultural land much diminished. We need to change and fairly rapidly

[BadHare]

There are too many people making money from the meat industry for that to happen.

[veggiegirl1906 in reply to BadHare]

Agreed!

And there are way more meat eaters and those who benefit from the meat industry forcing people to eat meat by pushing their views onto consumers through advertising and bashing veganism than there are vegans who are "forcing their views"

[BadHare]

I'm guessing the percentage of grass fed organic meat sold in the places where most people shop is very low,

[benwl]

That's very unlikely to happen. Big business makes far too much money selling meat and dairy products, and the trend seems to be increasing

bloomberg.com/news/articles...

[BadHare]

So out of the price range of the pockets of most people who eat industrially processed, environmentally unsound, cruel, high agrichemical drugged meat.

Sad for people, the planet, & the critters, that people choose quantity over quality.

[benwl in reply to BadHare]

Sad too for the animals that still have to be killed to provide the meat, I'm sure being grass fed is a huge consolation to them whilst they are being taken to be slaughtered.

[BadHare in reply to benwl]

Ashamed my dairy intake contributes to this, though I'm working on reducing my intake.

[benwl in reply to BadHare]

Me too I've only been vegan about 3 years, before that I was happily consuming dairy - everyone has to find their own path on this, and given my own history it would be hypocritical of me to be too judgmental, although I allow myself the odd comment like this

[BadHare in reply to benwl]

I ate predominantly vegan for 9 years, ie, almost always at home, with lapses when I was out. I've been dealing with some chronic health issues, all being exacerbated by eating unfermented soy, so I learned the hard & heavy way that I need to avoid it. It was similar to most meals being cheese based when I first went veggie. Changing to non-dairy kefir will be my biggest challenge as I'll need to get my K2 from tempeh, which I love, but that'll double my food bill.

[andyswarbs in reply to BadHare]

Are you okay with Tamari sauce as an alternative to soy. That's what I use which I get from a Japanese shop in Witney in a large bottles.

[BadHare in reply to andyswarbs]

That's fine, as is fermented soy sauce & miso. My problem arose after drinking >500mls soy milk every day, plus half a packet of tofu most days, always organic. I seem to be fine with all other goitrogens.

[benwl in reply to BadHare]

I can see having some specific health issues can make this a lot more complex.

I've not looked into food fermenting at all - it's on my do list and I have a book on it I need to read

[andyswarbs in reply to benwl]

Fermentation solves so many issues. As does sprouting.

[BadHare in reply to andyswarbs]

Alfalfa!

[BadHare in reply to benwl]

It does, & I have to factor in cost, too.

I tried sauerkraut, but was off to a bad start as I didn't like it.

[andyswarbs in reply to BadHare]

an(other) aquired taste. You might want to try kimchi which is (afaik) spiced sauerkraut.

[BadHare in reply to andyswarbs]

I’ve enjoyed kimchi in restaurants as a novelty rather than daily staple. I even like the pickled ginger, & I hate ginger. 😬

[TheAwfulToad in reply to andyswarbs]

Kimchi is awesome, although you'd be best off making your own (the stuff I've eaten in England is awful). You will need to get the proper Korean pepper powder. There are videos on youtube. It's not really sauerkraut: a key ingredient is rice flour, which (I suspect) alters the fermentation process somewhat.

[andyswarbs]

Barren without livestock? What about New Zealand?

[deejames]

The world pop in 2017 stood at 7.6 billion. That's a lot of meat if we all eat according to western standards. Impossible to produce 'naturally'

[TheAwfulToad in reply to deejames]

deejames: factory farming is hopelessly inefficient compared to state-of-the-art natural methods. Big Ag have put a lot of effort into convincing people this isn't true.

[andyswarbs]

The rainforest soy crops etc are being used to feed cattle and so forth. That's the cause of destruction of rainforest. Every acre for crops to feed cattle feeds 10x more people. Very wasteful - and all in the name of animal agriculture that creates so much methane.

If the world moved over to grass fed cattle then the rainforest will be further destroyed for grassland. Oh, sorry it is!

[benwl]

Although we seem to be opposed in most of our views I do read many of your links - and bought and read Zoe Harcombes book after you referenced it.

[andyswarbs]

Easily. So very easily. Complete no brainer. Stop using 90% of available arable land for feeding cattle and problem solved.

[andyswarbs]

too much omega 6 - on that we can agree.

Carbs, carbs, carbs. Dr McDougall prefers to talk about starch. He argues this because people can understand starch. They don't understand carbs, and obviously many people cannot understand, or ignore, the difference between simple and complex carbs. He prefers the term starch as a well understood alternative name for complex carbs. I think the term starch disappeared in 1977 as a result of FDA dietary advice changes.

I hate simple carbs. I hate simple carbs. The cause of many of today's chronic health problems, that's for sure. Very pretty, very tasty, very versatile, very cheap and very unhealthy.