From a GREAT stims round to a poor response - tips to stay positive?

[Darcy1996]

(Update in the comments, thank you all 💜)

Hi all - we made it to another weekend!

I have had my proverbial bubble royally burst today and I'm struggling to find the positive. Any positivity-boosters welcome - have tried some walking, lovely pulse point oils and a good old cry so far but I need to flip the script and boost that positivity and strength now.

Started my third round of fresh IVF stims meds last week, and although they wouldn't commit to numbers, the doctor at my 2nd stims scan on Weds said "this is looking so much better than the last round" with a wonderful warm smile. I was buzzing!

Then today (Friday) not so good news (1 week into stims). My smaller follicles aren't growing or responding as well, and I have max 5 follicles at the size they would hope they'd be at. So, it has gone from a conversation about pushing on and having EC in 7 days, to triggering on Sunday and collecting Tuesday, to get these 5.

My fear? even with 17 eggs in the last round only 12 were mature and only 6 fertilised normally and even with oocyte activation and PICSI we only 1 got to biopsy-able stage. So if I only have 5 or 6 to start with this time...the chances just aren't in our favour.

We have thrown everything at this round re acupuncture, nutritional overhaul, supplements until we rattle etc and used the same meds & protocol as our last round - but obviously for whatever reason, I haven't responded as well. I know it only takes one embryo but I also know we haven't ever got to transfer stage to know how that might go for us, or what I'll respond to well there. Sadly, we cannot afford to go again at this stage and I'm now 43 so time isn't there even if the funds were.

So after that ridiculously long wah from me, any tips on positivity in this final push, and acceptance for this change to ride it out in strength?

All the best everyone

[Endofitall]

I am so sorry it’s knocked you down! I’ve been in a right funk myself after our latest round.

I guess one thing I would say, is I really hope that even with reduced quantity the quality may be better?

I’ve always had poor response and when we collected 1-4 eggs I always got top quality blastocyst (even if they then didn’t implant or stick around long). Then we pushed for more with 4th stim and though my ovaries could only manage to push to 7 eggs collected, it was our biggest ever number, but still our most shocking cycle result with no embryos by day 5. So I am so so hopeful that these 5 you’re collecting are tip top shape and you have some promising embryology updates.

I am finding listening to some good audiobooks (Harry Potter books right now 😂) and getting stuck into a cross stitch project as well as big ol walks, helpful in stopping me stewing and ruminating too much. I can’t say I’ve got the answer though as I’m definitely not in my best mental state right now - sometimes one has to accept it’s tricky times and you are doing your best in this moment. xx

[Darcy1996 in reply to Endofitall]

Sorry to hear that for you too - it is just brutal isn't it. Sounds you are doing some lush things for yourself and I hope it is helping x

"I guess one thing I would say, is I really hope that even with reduced quantity the quality may be better?" - I am clinging onto the hope that this is the case and telling myself all of the standards - "it only takes one" and "quality over quantity"...but why not both??

I am so glad it is autumn, my favourite season, and I can put boots on and a big coat and walk and walk next week after EC. So grateful I booked the time off from my (stressful) job.

I am into audiobooks too - I bet the HP ones are charming! I'm not great at meditation or mindfulness but I am trying, but I can definitely have an audiobook playing whilst I (Harry) potter about.

All the best to you, and thank you x x

[Londonlady2024]

Hi, sorry to hear your experience. At our age we should be considering day 3 transfers if possible especially if you have less than 3-4 fertilised embryos otherwise you risk losing them at 5 blastocyst stage. I suggest keep going but change the stim protocol.

[Darcy1996 in reply to Londonlady2024]

thank you - we discussed this with them, as I saw a fabulous influencer couple have success with day 3 morulas, but because we want to PGTA test, they don't recommend (if we still wish to go this route, which I think we do). Also, as I started stims in my luteal phase, if it came to a fresh transfer, they advised my lining wouldn't be right at that time. SO many if/what/but's 😢

[Londonlady2024 in reply to Darcy1996]

Oh I see...I have had success with a day 3 double frozen transfer at 43 (now 44). All my fresh transfers failed and I tried both day 5 and 3 fresh transfers with adjustments made to dosage with meds plus add ons.

Sorry to hear about your lining... I personally believe frozen is best after a break from stims. Everything has to be in sync with your uterus for implantation to happen.

If you have 5 eggs collected, there would be huge drop-off...is it actually worth paying for pgta?

My NHS clinic froze my 3 embryos (out of 7 eggs) at day 1 after fertilisation (pro nuclei stage). All successfully thawed with one not surviving at day 3. Had double transfer and one stuck. I was at risk of ohss hence my fresh transfer was cancelled. Maybe something for you to consider x

[Darcy1996 in reply to Londonlady2024]

Thank you, you’ve given me a lot to ask, I really want to call the clinic today 💜

[Greenfig123 in reply to Darcy1996]

The same questions were a big headache for me (my numbers are low) and I’ve asked doctors and embryologists about this. Their opinion was that their lab culture mimics the human body: if an embryo didn’t make it to decent quality blastocyst in the lab, it was highly likely not viable. My clinic also won’t freeze under grade 3.

After my first round (no blasts), I’d read a study some women would never make day 5 blastocysts and was so worried. The doctor said that while this is true, there wasn’t yet any reason to suspect this would necessarily be me (next two rounds produced one blast each).

My clinic generally seem to think it’s worth pushing to 5-day blast. If you have one one good looking embryo on day 3, and are having a fresh transfer, they will transfer at day 3. But one consultant I spoke to said he didn’t agree with this, and said he would still wait to see if it makes it to day 5.

Interested to hear what your clinic says!

[Darcy1996 in reply to Greenfig123]

Mine have said similar too but I’m just stuck on a couple I follow who are pregnant after taking a chance on a day 3.

I’ve wobbled about the PGT testing as well however in our last round we found our only tested embryo was graded as a 5AA but the test showed it there was an issue - trisomy 18. So we could have taken the chance to not test, and in this case it would have been disastrous as hard as that was to take.

I know I need to trust the experts and the plan I asked for & agreed to, but it’s so hard not to think “what if” isn’t it.

As Londonlady2024 said, I am glad to be doing a FET regardless, have a cycle to recover imbetween but if we look like any embryos are slowing (ours slow at day 5 so aren’t able to be biopsied or they degenerate), I am going to ask if there’s a sweet spot we can catch them and freeze them still…then we maybe still have a chance (although I completely take the point that if they don’t do well in the lab they might not do well in utero).

[Kitkat10]

I’m sorry it’s such a rough time, I never got close to your numbers , I think I managed 9 eggs max per EC. I was 41 when I had my son and I can say that I realised that the timing of when the egg you need makes an appearance, is irrespective of numbers collected.

I had what I thought was a decent response to stims but then half the follicles were empty (which had not happened in the previous 2 rounds) so I only got 3 eggs and only 1 fertilised normally. So I gave up all hope, and felt totally devastated. But he’s now nearly 3 🩵

So, please don’t give up hope like I did, Your numbers are fantastic, try and hang in there and get through the next stages. Wishing you the best of luck for that little egg 🍀🍀 xx

[Darcy1996 in reply to Kitkat10]

Oh Kitkat10 I love that thank you, maybe it’s the timing & not the numbers. There’s one follicle that’s racing ahead & I know it’s silly, but I wonder if they’re racing to be here 🤣

[Kitkat10 in reply to Darcy1996]

Exactly! That’s the mind set to have 🩷🩷

Xx

[Twiglet2]

my last round was the poorest round I ever had in terms of eggs collected- 6 eggs 4 fertlised normally but got 2 blasts. We don’t do PGTA testing (because we only get a couple of blasts dont feel it’s worth it personally) but fresh transfer failed and I’m now 20 weeks from the frozen one. It was the first round in ages I got one for the freezer even though it was my lowest follicle count and egg collection and fertilisation! I honestly believe in quality over quantity so I defo wouldn’t count yourself out with 5 at the right size. Wishing you lots and lots of luck for collection xx 🤞🏽💜

[Darcy1996]

oh Twiglet2 congratulations 💜💜 I’m so glad you’ve got there. When I had the news yesterday, all I could think was our drop offs are so bad, we must be out. But today a little calmer I wonder/hope if all we’ve done might be the change….but I still also wonder if the clinic let me stims longer I might have more. Anyway, it’s not over yet & you’re proof of that. Thank you 🙏🏻

[Rox28]

On the topic of Harry Potter; "Happiness can be found even in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light" ❤️ it's not over til the fat lady sings 😆 Keep ur spirits up, at times it can be difficult to be positive but even watch something funny to make you smile/laugh. I've just finished round 4, (every round I only ever got 7 eggs which dwindled all the way down to just the 1 embryo), last round was positive (23rd Sept) at the end of the 2ww, scan was booked for 14 Oct but on 2nd Oct I bled & lost it. I'm still taking that as a good sign I had a positive test as prev rounds didnt always make it to the end of the 2ww before bleeding. Starting round 5 next month....*ding ding* 🥊🥋😄

[Darcy1996]

oh Rox28 I’m so impressed by the positive you’ve found but so so sorry to hear your loss. We have a comedy show booked for next Thursday - at least I can have a wine and a giggle. And I wish you so much luck by return, for round 5 💪🏻🥚

[Millbanks]

Hi lovely,

I'm sure you made your decision by now, but just to say that we had a better conversion rate of eggs to embryos when I had fewer eggs collected.

Maybe the fewer there are, the better quality they are.

Don't lose hope! xx

[Darcy1996 in reply to Millbanks]

Hi lovely,

Thanks Millbanks, I’m doing lots of talking to my follicles today like the weirdo I am! I’ve triggered (last night) and trying to bring myself back to optimism with every veer towards “I think I’m out”.

I know I’m so lucky to have this chance to even fund another round.

I know every round is different for every person.

I know we need quality over quantity.

And I know it just takes one. So everything crossed and eating all the rainbow & nutrients today.

Thanks for always having a kind, optimistic word, and sprinkling some hope. 💜

[Millbanks in reply to Darcy1996]

Hehe I think it helps.... I mean it helps plants doesn't it

I actually think it's totally fine to be negative about every aspect of IVF. It's a brutal journey and all we hear is "stay positive" when actually sometimes you just want to protect yourself. Do whatever you need to do to make it through.

I read the other day that so far you have made it through 100% of your worst days, so whatever happens you've got this.

Having said that, you are absolutely right that every round / person / treatment is different and you never know what is going to happen.

I have everything crossed for you xxx

[Darcy1996]

*update* thank you all for keeping my spirits up with your suggestions and your successes.

We had EC yesterday & got 9 eggs which is still our lowest but not nothing, at all. Mix of large & medium.

Today we heard 2 were “giant” so likely abnormal and couldn’t be used (rude, my partner & I are both over 6” tall 🤣), 4 were immature, 3 were mature. Of these 2 have fertilised well (1 fertilised & degenerated).

I’ve asked the clinic to keep talking to us.

Our goal is still to have any embryos tested as we did find a chromosome issue in pair 18 before that would have made a baby that was “incompatible with life” (brutal), but I’ve said if it looks like a strong embryo at day 5/6 but maybe not hatching yet to be biopsied, I want a conversation to look at freezing it anyway so we don’t lose it waiting. I don’t know if we’ll get to that but I’m a planner and I need to know we have options/choice if we get to that point.

All the best to all of you x

[Millbanks in reply to Darcy1996]

Hehe that made me chuckle! Giant eggs 😆

Come on little embies! I don't think the embryo needs to be hatching to be biopsied as they take the cells from the zona I believe?

Everything crossed for you! xx

[Darcy1996 in reply to Millbanks]

I was mildly offended at the giant egg comment 🤣 my partner and I have always said we’d make future Olympic hurdlers but clinic clearly don’t share the dream 🤣🤣

[CaffeineKate]

Hello,

Just wanted to message as I’m in exactly the same boat as you. We had egg collection yesterday and got 9 which is our lowest number so far (third round) and only 2 have fertilised normally. The previous two rounds we have had 7 and 9 at this stage that have fertilised normally although both blastocysts ended in a BFN. It’s so hard! Especially the waiting 😫. Xx

[Darcy1996 in reply to CaffeineKate]

We’re EC twins! I’m trying hard to reframe today so shall we try this together?

We have 2 more chances of a baby than we did last week.

We are not out.

Quality over quantity.

It just takes 1 wonderful, magical embryo.

Stay in touch CaffeineKate x

[CaffeineKate in reply to Darcy1996]

We are indeed ☺️.

Yes good idea. Better than crying at the office!

Come on little embryos - you can do this!

Let me know how you get on. Our next update will be on Friday. We have PICSI but they have said egg quality is the issue so will likely know by then if they are going to to make it. Gah! Xx

[Darcy1996 in reply to CaffeineKate]

My boss isn’t onboard re supporting fertility journeys or parents at all so I couldn’t face being in & around her negativity whilst hiding my sniffles so am v glad to be off work this week - I hope you’re ok, I find the calls brutal so I’m beyond grateful to share it here.

Same as you, next update Friday & also using PICSI. We have a sperm morphology issue + I’ve just turned 43 so trying every selection method up our sleeve to help. Now I’m internally cheering for news on 4 embryos 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻

[CaffeineKate in reply to Darcy1996]

Oh that sounds awful! How these people can be anything but supportive of these things is beyond me. Definitely a good idea not to be around that. I haven’t even told my work as I can’t face having to tell more people when it doesn’t work and so far that has been the right decision ☺️.

Yes we have PICSI due to high DNA sperm fragmentation as well as bad egg quality, all the things. I’m 36 so not sure what I did in my youth to cause such havoc but things are definitely not good. We also used steroids and growth hormone for this round as well so not sure where else to go from here.

Fingers crossed we don’t need to worry about it though because these embryos will survive 😊! Honestly I had read about every cycle being different but I’m so shocked!

I’m cheerleading too 🤞🏻 xxx

[Darcy1996 in reply to CaffeineKate]

Same, also used growth hormone this round & last…zomacton. Also thrown all supplements & dietary changes we can at this round so hear you…where else to go and what else could we change? But not there yet, we’ve each got 2 developing away in labs for us 🤞🏻🥰💜💜

[CaffeineKate in reply to Darcy1996]

Yes Zomacton is what we used as well! Honestly thought it would help. Hope the rest of your afternoon has been okay processing 💛💛. Xx

[Darcy1996]

Update - thank you all so so much. We had 2 embryos keep going to day 3, and day 5, then 1 only at day 6. I asked to freeze it if if could not be tested, but it was not multiplying at the rate they needed to see, and couldn't be frozen either.

So we are gutted, out of the running and waiting for our follow-up with the Director of our London clinic on the 14th. I want to knoe what he might have done differently, and why his team have rejected further tests on my partner.

In the meantime I'm

- booking DNA frag for my partner regardless

- investigating cheaper clinics overseas and booking in consultations

- being nice to myself (trying!)

- and talking to a counsellor about other options ASAP

It never ends does it this treadmill...well, unless you get the happy ending or your bank manager calls I guess.

thank you all