Finally got the news from Clinica Tambre 2 days ago that all 3 embryos are abnormal. Still waiting for the specific feedback which as usual I've had to chase for and feel like I've been forgotten about, as per every stage of the process. It was bad from the outset but I stuck with them because my friend did a successful DD here.
Wish I'd listened to my gut instincts and chosen a multi cycle package and stayed closer to home as the costs add up when going abroad, plus the costs having local scans done privately.
Would like to know from other women a similar age what they did after having abnormal embryos?
It was all going so well, I'm totally healthy and ovulating every month as normal.
I had 6 eggs for this cycle and responded well to Pergoveris.
They collected 5 good sized.
4 fertilised
3 made good day 6 embryos which also survived PGTA testing.
So I was very shocked that all 3 are abnormal. Yes it's probably an age issue.
Where do I go from here? My clinic have simply said donor. I'm not prepared to give up just yet.
Looking at the Agora and the London Women's Clinic which both have branches in Brighton.
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Sorry to hear your news. Unfortunately around 70% of eggs at your age (I’m same age) will be chromosomally abnormal. This doesn’t mean you won’t get a good PGTA embryo - I did, but out of 7 only 3 were normal for me (2 collections).
If you feel up to it, go again and bank as many as you can as you do only need one. It is very expensive and emotionally exhausting so do look after yourself.
Thanks for your message. Id heard the abnormal number could be even higher. But yes I feel certain I've got some normal ones in there.
Which clinic are you with pls? Would be good to connect as it sounds like your approach is what I had in mind.
Huge regrets going with a clinic that isn't local to me, and also one I was experiencing admin issues with from the outset that has caused so much unnecessary stress. I didn't have anything else to compare it with hence I carried on and soaked up the stress, now wondering how that could be affecting my egg quality. 😭
Hi, thanks. Mainly DHEA, high strength vitamin D and chicken bone broth ( I’m usually a veggie but needed the protein).
I don’t know how much supplements help but it can’t hurt. I had a natural pregnancy at 40 all fine and one at 42 that ended in a miscarriage (tests showed not age related however) so I must have still had some good quality eggs in there, it’s just finding them and that for me was two pretty gruelling collections 😩
Hey x it’s a tough journey and I’m sorry to hear of your results
I can’t comment on clinics as I live in Oz but I also changed clinics here due to not being happy with where I was and I’m really glad I did.
I’m 44 and although I never tested my embryos, I had to get 43 eggs taken out just to get one good one and still not 12 weeks yet so still a bit nervous.
You seem to have good blastocyst rate for your age so that positive 🙌 3 blasts from 4 eggs is amazing !
I hope you are luckier and get a good one on your next cycle 🙏
Sending you all the positive thoughts, that's fab you have one growing!
Yeah 3 out of 4 growing was "outstanding" according to the doc who then simply suggested donor as the next course of action and had nothing else to say.
I've now spoken with two clinics who are just down the road (so not Spain) and had a nice vibe from them both. Also feels good they are right there and I could have my scans with them so not have to pay privately.
I'm still trying to get my head around why they grew to day 6 yet they're abnormal and I know PGTA testing isnt conclusive.
Also I don’t know what it’s like over there but here they have a report for how many live births come from all clinics that you can look at so I believe doctors might push for what will make those numbers increase quicker
I could be completely wrong 😑
I’m lucky my doctor never pushed me to move to donor.
Keep going, all your efforts are paying off by the sound of it. Can totally understand why you feel nervous too. I'm really starting to realise what an impact stress must be having on my system, the constant worry and agitation and not knowing....
Thx for the share. Yeah I'm not typically a very patient person. And need to be on control due to trauma from an unstable childhood, hence why having a baby solo doesn't phase me at all as I've done everything alone and never had anyone I could rely on. Also had narc partners trying to control me/take my money - so having a baby all for me that I can give my all to, feels so logical.
I'm scared to take a break from the process while I'm so flooded with hormones as I read that could benefit the next round, and time is badly ticking.
Really sorry you're going through this. It is such a lot.
Just to say, abnormalities of embryos is not a 'women's issue' -sperm also has a part to play!
The advice from my clinic in the UK was that whole chromosomes missing was statistically more likely to be an error from the egg and partial chromosome issues, such as deletions or additions were more likely to be from the sperm.
I'm 39 and everyone banged on about my age (we have recurrent miscarriage, and the standard response was 'your old, you have bad eggs and your body is just letting any old embryo implant'. Turns out, through doing IVF, that it looks more likely to be male factor (of 4 PGT-A tested 2 were abnormal and both had partial deletions, although one did also have a missing chromosome, so an egg issue.
It's really lazy science for clinics to blame women, due to their age, without looking in depth at the PGT-A results. So definitely, definitely push for these.
Of course, the above it only a statistical likelihood from research, not definite in each individual case but worth considering. We were also told that 'bad egg's largely don't fertilise well and issues where embryos stall between days 3-5 is more likely o be due to abnormalities with sperm.
I've found Emma the embryologist really useful for info too. She has a website, is on instagram and works at a UK based clinic.
Thanks thats all really helpful. I'll find Emma and follow.
I assume the sperm is fine as it's donor sperm?
Im still processing how 3 became day 6 embryos yet were all abnormal.
And that was 3 out of 4 eggs that fertilised, of 5 eggs taken.
At my April scan, I had 9 eggs follicles.
My body is clearly still functioning but needs some support with quality yet clinics seem so reluctant to offer you insights on that support beyond taking DHEA and Ubiquinol.
What clinic are you with?
As I'm now looking at changing to one closer to home.
I wouldn't assume that with donor sperm unless they've checked for DNA fragmentation. Also, and sorry for the bluntness, anyone can 'have a bad wank' and have less than top level sperm. A fever, a couple too many drinks at the same time, anything like that in the 12 weeks before they produced their sample could lead to issues, even if they're otherwise young and healthy.
They do some testing but, to the best of my knowledge, this is subjective visual screening, not checking quality of DNA. Your eggs does some of this too, but they're not infallible and do let less than perfect sperm fertilise them. Younger eggs can sometims repair teh DNA issues, older ones can't as they focus on repairing themselves.
Drop off rates are usual, not age related. I have 15 follicles, 11 growing well, 8 eggs retrieved, 7 fertilised, 4 grew to blastocyst (between days 5 and 6) and 2 were normal, 2 were abnormal. At 'my age' it would be more usual to only have 1 of 4 blastocysts be classed as 'normal' after PGT-A.
Also, worth bearing in mind that the womb is a highly intelligent organ -lots of embryos can be made that it won't let implant or continue to grow because pregnancy is so costly to our bodies. It shouldn't let anything implant that won't grow to a viable baby.
Embryos, even at blastocyst stage, would only just be entering the womb and be getting ready to implant, so they wouldn't have gone through that 'vetting' process, which PGT-A sort of tries to replicate. So, lots of us have embryos fertilise and grow to that stage, without IVF, but just never know about them because we get our period as the womb hasn't let them implant. Reproduction is, unfortunately, quite a wasteful process.
Personally, I also think it's good to check that a clinic's policies on embryos align to yours before PGT-A. For example, some clinics will discard mosaic embryos (where some of the cell sample tested normal and some abnormal). These have a lower rate of live births, but it's not zero. Others may discard embryos that have survival trisomies such as Down Syndrome.
Obviously, everyone has their own personal views on what they'd want transferred back, but I do think it's worth choosing a clinic that matches your personal views. We had a long discussion with our genetic counsellor to make sure our clinic's views matched ours.
So, definitely get those results. And remember clinics are judged on their 'success' rates, which are largely the number of lives births per embryo transferred. So, it doesn't benefit their 'success' rates to transfer in embryos which have a lower chance of success, even if there is still some chance.
Of course, it maybe that the issues found mean that the embryo is not viable -certainly was with us. But it is worth knowing this for certain.
I've never had any conversation with a genetic counsellor - just a 5 minute conversation two days ago with my pretty useless clinic to say they're all abnormal. I had to chase for the actual results, twice, which I've only just received now, and they don't mean a whole lot to me so I'm having to Google to make sense of it. I could probably request another conversation with my clinic but I am too angry about their shoddy processes right now to want to speak with them. Do other clinics talk to you upfront before the PGTA to explain what might be found and help you prepare for it?
Responded to this is DMs but just in case anyone is looking through:
Yes, our clinic has an obligatory discussion with a genetic counsellor before confirming PGT-A. They go through risks and benefits specific to you and the clinic's policy on transferring embryos that are mosaic etc. I can't fault them on this.
When the results are in, the genetic counsellor calls you to discuss them (they just call, no appt booked), you can ask any questions you have. Following this, they email your results.
In terms of what we're doing with our embryos, we only completed collection in May, then PGT-A results in June. We didn't have the turn around time for a July transfer, so actually booked in to have the first one popped into today...
Wow I've had no insights shared or support for my PGTA analysis, I'm still trying to understand what they are doing with the embryos.Oh wow good luck for today! X
Just want to say I agree fully with what you are saying and I’m so grateful that not once has my clinic blamed me. We had to have ICSI and by day 3 I had 22 fertilised eggs. We ended up with 6 blastocysts. Clinic is still pointing the finger at it being the sperm. They said yes not all of my eggs will be good but based on all my test results and my high reserve coupled with when those fertilised eggs stopped developing they still think it’s male factor only. Yet society tells us that women over 35 are the problem. We can be of course but I wish that narrative wasn’t so prevalent!
Hi, just to say my clinic is Spanish too - so that might not help you. I had to push to speak to the embryologist - it wasn’t offered - but got there in the end. I’m nearly 20 weeks with our embryo now.
As someone said, try get the full PGTA breakdown, that will help to decipher if an egg or sperm issue but you may have to do own research. Unfortunately mine were all related to egg. Good luck
I've got the results now, not sure how to determine if it's egg or sperm though?
I think I read partial (mosaic) is more likely to be sperm and whole chromosome issue is egg?
Which is your Spanish clinic? I also looked at Eugin but they want you to visit first for some specific blood test, before they'll even start treatment, which would have added even more cost, so I stuck with Tambre, probably a mistake given the service I've had which has caused so much stress.
They've not offered a conversation with the embryologist and I don't know whether to request one.
I had to chase twice even to get my PGTA results. And the doctor forgot our scheduled phone call and I had to chase for that too. Have you had similar experiences with your clinic?
hello there, I’m so sorry to hear of your PGTA results and I well recall that feeling. It’s horrible and I wish I could give you a massive hug.
At 42, I had my first egg collection. Of 4 embryos, only one was normal. A few months later we did another collection and got 5 embryos. None were normal. We then transferred that one from our first round in and it failed.
At almost 43 I did my third round with a new clinic. and we got 3 PGTA normal embryos. There were things we did differently ourselves (moving to higher quality supplements and adding a few in - namely ubuiqonol and vitamin D), but honestly I think my new consultant combed through my notes and adjusted my protocol accordingly and that helped perhaps… but I also do wonder if it was a bit of a lottery.
We have had lots of issues since and haven’t been able to transfer them yet. Hoping one might take.
I only tell you this to give you some hope that if you want to continue, it can turn around. Also you have such a good rate of egg to blastocyst so that’s positive. Sending you so much love xxx
Hi there, no I have never used human growth hormones to my knowledge!
Details of supplements I took are below but I do also want to say my consultant changed me from Menopur to a lower dose of Pergoveris. He also tweaked other things too according to my response to drugs at the previous clinic. I think his tailored approach may have been what made the difference. We got 42 eggs and I think 9 made it to embryo then 3 were PGTA normal which is a good rate of embryo to PGTA normal for my age and way higher than I’d had before.
For supplements, I took Health through nutrition’s ubuiquinol a few months prior along with methyl folate and vitamin D&K2 (those were both by Swiss bio energetic), and I took super B complex by Igennus.
I’ve since moved on to a Zita west package of vitamins for people with endometriosis and all those things are also in there. It also just worked out a more affordable way to do things. X
Hello, I was a similar age to you when I had success. I did pay for a multi cycle package to get success as I was given only a 10% just because of my relatively good AMH levels.
Unfortunately our fertility steeply declines once over aged 40. I even had a round when none of my eggs (13 collected) made it to day 5.
I was lucky that I got success the following round after transferring 2 embryos. I had my 2 year old daughter aged 44. I never went down the PGTA route for personal reasons.
Yes fertility declines but I had 3 blasts of 4 grow to day 6. Things seemingly want to grow but I need to work on the quality. Im cutting sugar immediately, doing a gut cleanse and moving to a full Mediterranean diet with fish (I am pescatarian.) Is there anything else you tried when you eventually had success?
Also were you worried about twins?
I've a consultation with a Brighton clinic on Saturday so am going to ask them about PGTA or whether I could let my body de-select.
Would you mind DMing me the clinic you did the multi cycle package with?
I did eat relatively healthily , incorporating 2 portions of oily fish in my diet and ate lots of fruits and salads. I also exercised lots and took CQ10. I don’t know if it helped but definitely made me feel I was doing all I could to give myself the best chance.
I know how lucky I was to get success with my own eggs aged 43 because as women over 40 not only do we have less eggs, our eggs are older and less likely to lead to a viable pregnancy. Hence more abnormal eggs, increased BFN and miscarriage rates.
Will definitely PM the name of the clinic I used. It was in London.
I'm having 2-3 portions of salmon per week and more salads and wholegrains like lentils, with lots of veg. I have the very occasional glass of wine.
Sugar has been my downfall, I'm now cutting all the treats and snacks.
And exploring all options to reduce inflammation as I think it's affecting my immunity since I've had ongoing HPV for almost two years. My body isn't clearing it.
I saw something recently that I wish I had tried- there is some study about açai 600mg that led older women to have the same rate of pregnancy as younger ones. Look it up, might help, and if it does please let us know!
It's worth a try - makes sense than a strong anti oxidant could help. I'm speaking again with Wild Nutrition today - they offer free consultations. So I'll ask them about it, I'm already taking their fertility support which contains natural folate and no fillers.
I am now also taking Ubiquinol 200mg x3 per day
Getting a blood test to check my testosterone levels, as I've been taking 75ug per day, yet I dont know what my levels are now.
PGTA testing is not always accurate. There have been studies that show an “abnormal” embryo came out to be a healthy baby. I would opt to not do PGTA testing in the future. This is why I did not do it. So many “normal” embryos are discarded because of this.
I hope for better results next time for you and a healthy baby. ❤️
Yes I had a dilemma about it as I didn't want the highs and lows of getting pregnant and miscarrying if it doesn't stick, plus the repeated visits to Spain. Having a more local clinic would obviously eliminate that expense.
According to the genetic analysis, all 3 had missing chromosomes which is considered an egg issue. 😭
Sorry I hear what you’re going through. When all of our PGTA tested embryos came back abnormal, we had further testing to show if it was a male or female issue and it was 50/50. I can’t remember what the name of the test was. If we are to do a next round, we will probably decide against PGTA for the same reason above has mentioned. Good luck xx
I spoke with a consultant today from the LWC Brighton branch and he said he has seen some data recently which has convinced him against the positives of PGTA. He says that since my blast rate is so healthy, he would have me proceed without PGTA, given this data that shows how suspect it's reliability is.
This consultant also spotted that my AMH done in India had not been converted to the European units of use, hence 0.31 is actually 2.2 by UK standards. I know this isn't indicative of egg quality, but I felt encouraged about his expertise and my Spanish clinic missed this, hence hurried me into the July egg collection without allowing enough time for supplements/lifestyle changes to take effect.
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