Another BFN, When to give up?

[Ses777]

Hello all, I’m 40 years old and have now had 4 rounds of IVF/ICSI. Despite always producing a good number of eggs for my age (42 in total over 4 cycles) we’ve only had 4 transfers with 3 failing to implant and the only 1 that worked ended in a MMC at 9 weeks. I’m 8dp5dt (4th transfer) and I’ve tested yesterday and today and both tests are negative. I was told to test on day 10 but I just instinctively knew as soon as we were told it was a 4CC that there was no hope.

No one will offer any solutions or tests, we just keep getting told it’s the age of my eggs and our only option is donor eggs. My age doesn’t explain why I didn’t get pregnant during my younger years! I was 32 when we started properly trying.

We have very low fertilisation rates and then usually have really good quality day 3s which then arrest or turn in to not so great quality blastocysts. I just feel like we should give up but at the same time, how can we give up on our dream of having a bio child together especially when I’m still producing eggs! Any suggestions of where we go from here would be greatly appreciated xxxxx

[CornflowerMoon]

Hello, I'm sorry you've had such a difficult journey. I'm in the TWW for my 3rd transfer (2nd cycle of ICSI) and I know we will try again if it hasn't worked this time - so I don't think I can give much insight into what people go through when they decide they're going to stop. I just wondered if you'd considered day 3 transfers if your embryos tend to deteriorate after day 3, and whether that might be something to consider if you do try again? I wish you well whatever you decide.

[Ses777 in reply to CornflowerMoon]

Good luck! I really hope you get a positive result. Yes the only pregnancy we had was from a top quality day 3 embryo on our long protocol, they said as we only had 1 they didn’t want to risk pushing on to day 5. We did ask this time when we got the call on day 3 to say both embryos were perfect but they said best to transfer blasts but here we are with another failed round. Take care and hope your 2WW goes quickly! Xxx

[JA-fnuk Partner Nurse Fertility Network UK]

Stressful time for you -make sure have people around you for support- this facebook group maybe helpful facebook.com/groups/40andov... have regular zoom calls next meeting 19th June 7-30 pm

Take care

Janet

[Ses777 in reply to JA-fnuk]

Thank you so much Janet, I’ve requested to join the group xxx

[Hidden]

Hi there,

I can’t offer advice but I understand how you feel. I’m 8dp5dt and negative. This is also my 4th transfer and never get a positive result. I tried egg donor and it didn’t work either, I’m also told it’s my age/egg quality (I’m 41) but moving to egg donor hasn’t helped. I’m the same when they say it’s because of eggs - I’ve been trying since I was early 20s and not one bfp so it wasn’t an egg issue when I was younger (I even donated my eggs at age 22ish)

It’s so upsetting and bloody frustrating!

My plan is to ask for further investigations maybe that might be your answer ? Have you had your embies PGT-A tested ?

X

[Ses777 in reply to Hidden]

I’m so so sorry to hear your story. I often wish there was something wrong that could have been diagnosed and fixed. I just feel like I’m so fertile on paper, very regular periods, ovulate every month, always produce lots of eggs, no health issues! We never get enough embryos to do testing and no one has ever suggested it. I just don’t think I’m ready to give up but based on our previous results I wonder if there’s any point. My official test day is this Thursday but I tested yesterday and today with very sensitive tests so no way it’s going to change. Do you think there’s any hope that yours could change? We had 3 NHS rounds at one clinic then self funded at another clinic who massively changed things up, highest dose of stims using double stims and double trigger but still no luck. We are desperate for someone to actually help us/suggest tests rather than just try IVF then tell us just to use DE and blame my age! Xxx

[Hidden in reply to Ses777]

I know exactly what you mean, I was misdiagnosed with blocked tubes so for years thought that was my issue. It was easier then to understand as you say there’s a way to fix the issue - IVF. I think it turned my world upside down when I found out my tubes were fine and I had no adhesions but no one can say it’s this or it could be that - it was just ‘unexplained infertility’ and now an egg issue - which I accept as I’m older, and am ok with the DE route (I completely understand it’s not everyone’s choice). My OTD is Thursday as well but I know there’s no hope for this cycle now, so have accepted the negative.

Have you read the Rebecca Fett ‘it starts with an egg’?. I followed it to T with my last round with my own eggs - I was told I’d have no hope but got two a grade blasts ! They didn’t take but I was proud I got that far. Might be worth having a read ?

I remember (like the other poster said) reading somewhere that the first three days are down to the egg and then it’s the sperm so maybe further tests on the sperm ? I’m going to try find where I read it as I don’t want to misinform you.

How are you feeling about Thursday ? Are you ready for any outcome ?

X

[LuxFleur]

You might consider going abroad to a clinic that specializes in older mothers, if you can. I got a top quality blastocyst from doing a luteal phase stimulation, which I had not done before, with a collection before the follicles were all very large. I've read that earlier collections can help with older mothers or those with prematurely aged ovarian reserve. There were 7 eggs, and only one fertilized, but I'm currently pregnant from that one, so it's really true that all you need is one. Five of the seven eggs were immature, but this one was collected at exactly the right moment it would seem. I think that the kind of protocol can really make a difference—long versus short, or trying a luteal phase stimulation, or different doses of the meds. I would also recommend acupuncture, but only if you can find someone really good who specializes in fertility. After seeing mine for three months, my ovulation was so strong that the doctor could not suppress it with the usual drugs for FET, so we ended up having to do a natural/medicated hybrid cycle that included a trigger shot to try and control my surging ovulation. I didn't do any Chinese herbs or anything but I could really feel the difference in my health after seeing the acupuncturist. I'm 44 so you never know, you could still have time. Best of luck!

[Orangeflowers in reply to LuxFleur]

Hi - congratulations again! Please could you tell me more about what luetal phase stimulation is and PM me the name of the clinic which specialises in older women? I've turned 44 and am considering last options with own eggs. Thanks x

[Ses777 in reply to LuxFleur]

I’m so happy for you! Such amazing news! Thank you so much for the advice. I’ve never even heard of luteal stimulation! I have read a lot that gentler cycles are better for over 40s with lower doses of stims. It’s so hard to give up when you know it only takes 1! I’ll look in to Acupuncture as well. If you don’t mind, please PM the clinic you used abroad. I really think going abroad has to be our next step I just don’t feel ready to give up xxx

[Boo718]

hello I hope you are ok? We were told that the egg leads untill day 3 then the sperm has more to do with it so when ours started going crap at day 3 they looked into hubbys sperm quality. Have you done chromosomal tests on the embryos? Xxx

[Ses777 in reply to Boo718]

I’m really not ok, but trying to keep myself busy by thinking about options to give myself back a little hope. No one has ever suggested testing our embryos, none of the clinic we use do it. I’m in Scotland and options are limited. We were at the same clinic for 3 NHS rounds then changed to another NHS hospital but self funded. No one has ever suggested anything outside the box, just that my eggs are old and we should try DE. They have always said that the sperm is ‘fine’ but we are now wondering if there is something going on that can’t be seen. We’ve had ICSI the last 2 times. What tests did you have done if you don’t mind me asking? Xxx

[Boo718 in reply to Ses777]

it’s such a difficult journey. I’m in Scotland too but actually went to Spain because Scotland was a nightmare. We did a sperm check and a pgd check (chromosome check) on any embryos we did get. I had the Alice, Emma and era tests to look for bacteria, infections and optimal timing for transfer.

I also had a hysterocopy to check my tubes, there are a number of options. It’s just a shame that in Scotland it’s so hard to get any extra tests done. They also did thyroid, vitamin d and progesterone checks. Whilst putting me on blood thinners incase of any issues and steroids in case of nk cell problems. Sorry if this is a bit much info.

Keep your chin up and look after yourself xxx

[Tnthketnf]

I am so sorry for the result. Your case sounds similar to mine as in plenty of eggs but not many embryos and not great quality. Where it's different though is the day three update. In most of my cycles I was told they were looking poor already, so they assumed it's an egg issue because the egg is responsible for the development until then. Have you looked into sperm issues? There is a lot of testing available but to be fair if they find something wrong the answer is usually icsi with some additional sperm selection method and of course prior to another cycle they suggest vitamins lifestyle changes etc. Sometimes maybe intervention is needed for specific conditions.

I totally agree that fertility clinics have no real interest in testing and finding anything they just want to put you through cycles, regardless of what is the problem. Also, egg donor conception is better for them, better money better stats. I am not saying they recommend it without any good reason but they have no incentive to try to find a way to help you with your eggs.

You could get a second opinion ? Visit another clinic with a summary of your cycles and see what they say?

It is a difficult decision to move to donor. But Everyone in here who has done it they have only said positives. Take some time to think about it, speak to a counsellor, look up donor conception network, there are things you can do to explore the topic and see how you feel.

Take care

[Ses777 in reply to Tnthketnf]

Thank you so much for your message. I’m so sorry to hear that you have struggled as well. It’s heartbreaking isn’t it. Yes it always goes wrong from day 3 onwards. I feel that my age gets blamed for everything, so there’s a refusal to consider anything else. They’ve always said my husbands sperm is ok but due to really poor fertilisation they did ICSI the last 2 times but it didn’t seem to help. I couldn’t agree more with everything you have said about clinics. I feel we should try a clinic abroad but the thought of a lot more money and based on our previous results, probably a poor outcome is terrifying! Do you have any plans on what to do next? Xxx

[Tnthketnf in reply to Ses777]

After my 4th cycle failed I felt almost ready to move on to DE, my husband convinced me to have one last go at it with my eggs which we did abroad and it was the same ..enough eggs but only one embryo, an early blastocyst which was frozen. I haven't transferred it yet. But I am not expecting much to be honest. At the moment I am on a sort of a break due to work and study. I will transfer it in September and I am having a mock cycle this month. The idea is that after this embryo fails, I will move on to DE. Right now I am not sure if I want to continue with treatment. I want to have a child but after all this time and failures I don't know how I feel. If I am honest I am dreading the scenario that DE doesn't work in the end .

Regarding the clinics abroad I don't think they are any better, maybe better customer service less waiting times but the essence of it is the same. But I would look for a second opinion on sperm matters if I were you.

All the best to you for the next steps.