Dealing with agism and frustrated by the ignorance and lack of compassion in the world.

My partner and I have finally been told our GP will refer us for fertility treatment. I don't feel great about it; as brattish as it sounds I just want to conceive naturally, like the majority of people out there who conceive naturally without having their body and their sex life scrutinised. I don't want to be prodded and poked and injected full of hormones. I realise there are people who are worse off, and so many people would be grateful for the referral, but I still feel really sad, and really angry that I've basically had to fall apart and piece myself back together month after month and will have to continue to do so for the foreseeable future. And I'm tired of gritting my teeth and hiding the agony of my situation behind a smile when yet another friend, neighbour, colleague or family member announces a pregnancy.

I was talking to a new colleague a few weeks back who asked me if I had children. I said no and did my usual of getting ready to steer the conversation in another direction. "Too late in the day, is it?" he asked. I'm turning 37 in a few weeks. He then went on to make the widely held assumption that older women who don't have children have 'left it too late', 'put the career first', etc. I was shocked and embarrassed and clumsily explained how a lot of my friends don't have children for a variety of reasons, and that the world's a different place to what it was 30 odd years ago. People rarely settle down and start a family with the person they met when they were 18. And even if they do, there are no guarantees. There are enough younger women on this forum to testify to that.

Somehow the idea of infertility has become an agist issue too. In no other walk of life is it acceptable to tell a woman - or a man! - that being over 35 is old, and that you're past it. Obviously my age weighs heavily on my mind, as it does any one else dealing with the endless personal reflection that comes with unexplained infertility. But having the newspapers, medical profession - and colleagues! - ramming it down my throat doesn't help.

I'm frustrated that this is almost entirely considered a female issue. If 1/3 of cases are due to male infertility, 1/3 are unexplained and therefore neither male or female then why are men so often unrepresented and silent on the issue of infertility? Perhaps they're less likely to find themselves on the receiving end of those dreaded questions, perhaps having children is still seen as an entirely female preoccupation. Ultimately it will always, always be the woman's body, lifestyle, age, stress-levels that are scrutinised when infertility rears its head.

I love my OH deeply, and he has started to become a better support in this as he's become more awake to how tough I've got it. He's more aware of the comments and how deeply a throwaway comment can cut me, and it's starting to feel more like we're in this together. But to the rest of the world, it's still me that will be judged and questioned.

Has anyone else experienced the agist, sexist comments that come with being over 35 and childless? Both from the public and the medical profession? I just don't know how to respond to these situations. I'm childless by circumstances, not by choice and I'm tired of the lack of compassion I face on a daily basis.

[Lamorna80]

Completely! I'm 37 next month. Only a few people know about our fertility issues. My OH has had to tell his work but it's so obvious that they assume it's my fault. All my tests came back fine, even my AMH so part of me wants to scream from the rooftops that it's not me when I get 'that look' or someone starts the 'no children' conversation. I know many friends assume there is something wrong as they knew we were ready to start a family after we married a few years ago. It's hard for my OH & I think it's important to keep things private but after these rounds of hormones/injections/ complete lifestyle changes on my part and very little effort on his, I sometimes think he allows others to assume that it's because of my age that we can't have children. I feel ashamed for thinking it as I know it could easily have been the other way round, but I do and this has to be the place to be honest about such things.

[Hidden in reply to Lamorna80]

You're absolutely right this is the place to be honest. This forum has been a total godsend to me. I don't talk about this openly with friends or family because I just can't face the pity, the misplaced comments, the 'advice' from people who fell pregnant without even trying, and so forth. But you're absolutely right, underlying every single thing about infertility is it's a woman's problem, the woman's fault.

I don't want my OH - or anyone's, for that matter - to feel the torment of being considered the one with the problem. But there needs to be a shift in the way people report and talk about infertility and instead of the press constantly scaremongering with threats of woman 'leaving it too late', there needs to be compassion and understanding for the TWO PEOPLE who are experiencing it.

Thanks so much for your comment - I wish you both so much luck for whatever's to come and I hope you can both stay strong and not let the insecurity and prejudices that come with this awful experience undermine an otherwise happy marriage xxx

[Tugsgirl]

There’s SO much ignorance concerning infertility. I’ve done my best to make people understand by answering their clumsy questions and even sharing a lot of stuff on Facebook. At least the people who ask the clumsy questions want to learn, the hardest part is people who don’t care at all. It’s like if it doesn’t effect them then why should they? I’ve actually been unfollowed on Facebook because people are bored of my efforts to try and raise awareness of infertility. I hear you. No one dreams of growing up and trying to conceive their families through ivf. Xx ps I’m 37 too

[Hidden in reply to Tugsgirl]

Well I think you're brilliant for trying so hard to give people the benefit of the doubt and explain the facts. You're so right; some people are so completely unaffected by infertility that they just don't care either way. They think people are just moaning about something they can't have and don't understand the reality of how it impacts every area of your life. If people are so ignorant that they'll go so far as to unfollow you then it sounds like you're better off without them in your life anyway.

But yeah, the fact remains that none of us are here by choice and it can be a horribly rough ride. Other people's ignorance and stupid comments make it all the worse at times.

Sending loads of love to you, and big respect to you for being so open and brave about an endlessly heartbreaking situation xxx

[Tugsgirl in reply to Hidden]

To say this journey is hard is an understatement. But with the support on this group you’ll get through it. You don’t ever have to feel alone again xx

[Hidden in reply to Tugsgirl]

So well said - this forum is a life saver and has pulled me back from the brink a couple of times xxx

[anna0908]

I even had a comment from a fertility nurse. She assumed we had chosen to wait til we were mid 30's and suggested we had put our careers first! Couldn't believe it coming from someone in the business! I did correct her and said actually it had taken me til 33 to meet the right person and we had managed to move in together, get married and started trying within 2 yrs! I didn't think that was bad going or suggested we had chosen to delay childbearing! I suppose I could have 'chosen' to get knocked up from a one night stand in my 20's! Makes me so angry the assumptions people make without any knowledge of your personal situation. Everyone has a story and reasons why they have got to the point they have and I still haven't figured out why people dare say the things they do about infertility when they wouldn't make comments like that about other medical conditions. I've just learnt to take a deep breath and not waste energy getting frustrated about other people's ignorance xx

[Hidden in reply to anna0908]

It's just so galling when you hear it from a professional, isn't it? I'm the same; I met my partner when I was 33, and knew almost immediately that I wanted to have a family with HIM. Not just have a baby for the sake of it, but because I thought the two of us would make a great team and could raise a family together.

My parents had children very young, started when they were 21 and were divorced by their mid-30s. Is that what we should all be aspiring to? Get pregnant for the sake of it because of the scaremongering and then bring our children up under the cloud of a broken relationship?

The ignorance, and assumptions people make (even in the actual medical field of infertility) is astounding.

Aaaand .... breathe....

Thanks so much for your comment and wise words xxx

[Lizzielizzielizzie in reply to Hidden]

I met my partner at 33 as well. I just make sure that my answer to anyone who asks if we have children is "no, but it's not by choice". That way most people don't have chance to start making negative comments. As it turns out, we would have had problems whatever age I was as my husband has a chromosome translocation, but we didn't know that until almost three years into trying and after two ivf bfns and a miscarriage. People are insensitive but I agree with tugsgirl, we just have to try to educate them!!

[Tugsgirl in reply to Lizzielizzielizzie]

Although sometimes it feels like I’m banging my head against a brick wall 😕 xx

[Lizzielizzielizzie in reply to Tugsgirl]

I think worst one for me was someone assuming I didn't want children because I worked with them all day! Made me feel like a cruel child-hating witch. 😬

But I did explain and the person who made the comment was extremely sympathetic after she understood. People just don't understand in general. There's no excuse for medics though, and I was grateful that my fertility nurse said "if only people could meet each other sooner", which was a nice way of showing she understood it wasn't a choice we had made to be trying when 'so' old!

I always feel it's very unfair that I had quite a struggle to meet my oh (I wasn't single by choice either... all those comments about being too 'picky' weren't helpful back then and are in a similar vein) and now have a struggle to have children. I feel like you shouldn't have to battle both extended singledom and infertility in your life! But life isn't fair and at least I'm going through this with a wonderful man by my side!

[Hidden in reply to Lizzielizzielizzie]

I love that last sentence. I consider myself very fortunate to be with someone I adore, and who I have no doubts about wanting to spend my life with.

Not everyone gets that lucky

[Lizzielizzielizzie in reply to Hidden]

EXACTLY 💜💜

[Tugsgirl in reply to Lizzielizzielizzie]

Me too. And he was worth the wait xx

[Leo2017]

I can totally relate, I'm now 39 and only met my partner at 35....we've been trying for 2yrs!! People just assume I've put my career first, how wrong they are!! 😕

So many insensitive comments, I also had one from a fertility nurse...I said about it being unexplained to which she said 'I wish they wouldn't use that term, at your age is more often than not a quality problem'!!! Thanks very much just what I wanted to hear going into egg collection!! 🙈 xx

[Hidden in reply to Leo2017]

Wow, that's so so rude! Not to mention insensitive, misinformed, presumptuous etc etc. How is it acceptable for people like that to work in these places? I hope you've received better care along the way than that one unprofessional idiot!

Hang on in there, and wishing you the very best of luck with whatever stage of the process you're at xxx

[Leo2017 in reply to Hidden]

Thank you, fortunately it was only ever that one nurse everyone else at our clinic could not be nicer!!

Wishing you all the very best as well on this tough journey!! ☘️xx

[Hidden in reply to Leo2017]

That's good. Isn't is a shame that one person can have such a negative impact when so many people are doing a great job? So pleased the rest of the people you've dealt with have shown you the compassion and kindness that so very much deserved in this situation xxx

[emmab178]

Can completely relate. I'm 38 and got married 4 years ago. Straight after getting married people were asking me when we were having babies and yet my husband never got asked! I would tell people we have two, rufus and beau. They are 14 and 6. Rufus is friends with everyone but beau is very shy. I love them dearly but i wish Rufus would stop murdering animals especially birds. At this point they look horrified and slowly it dawns on them I'm talking about my cats.

Or I'd say 'If I'd known children were compulsory then I would have rejected the proposal' or 'No I'm barren, any very sensitive personal and private information that you want to share with me?' and watch them get their foot out of their month.

It didn't help when i considered myself as broken when undiagnosed endo took my left ovary and tube from me. During ivf we found out we had male factors too.

Unfortunately the world seems to think that it's acceptable to comment on huge life events that may or may not be the hand that we are dealt with in life. I would never dare to ask or comment on anyone else's life choices but l it seems people feel that beating down women on not being mum's is completely acceptable.

[Hidden in reply to emmab178]

I love your responses! "Any very sensitive personal and private information that you want to share with me?" - brilliant. I'm sure the vast majority of people don't mean to be unkind, but the thoughtlessness and ignorance become so hurtful when you're faced with it day in day out.

I'm the same; I'm completely non-judgemental (as far as possible) when I meet people. Who knows what experiences, highs, lows, successes and failures a person has been through?

And yes, childless women (by choice or otherwise) are completely disdained and judged by the rest of the world. Whereas childless men? Barely mentioned.

[emmab178 in reply to Hidden]

Honestly it got ridiculous with the baby questions and my husband knew I was getting irritated by it but he never got one baby question! My smug mum SIL the worst offender. When I told her my ovary and tube had a 7cm mass she just said 'well its ok, you never wanted kids '. Yes my dear it might be cancer but because I've had to bat your constant harassment about reproducing away with jokes to protect myself you think it's ok to have to have organs removed. Grrrr. I haven't spoken to her since that event which is ok because she has her smug mummy gang. I'm 32 weeks and we are seeing them Monday but i guess she will find something else to look down on me for.

It's obviously women's mission to reproduce. Pity they didn't take us aside at school to inform of our duty then we could all be knocked up at 16 from completely the wrong person and screwed all chances of education but at least we would have fulfilled our duty. Pfft.

I nearly do ask people if they have kids but quickly change the word from kids to cats. Cats are much more fun to talk about. You don't have to pretend to be prefect having fur babies.

[Hidden in reply to emmab178]

Oh my god - exactly! If a girl gets pregnant at 16 she's irresponsible and a burden on society, if a woman tries to start family in her 30s or later she's considered selfish. We just can't win.

I'm totally with you on the whole idea of batting away the questions with humour. I've done the same thing myself to stop the painful line of questioning that often comes my way. I know I could be honest with people and they'd most likely feel terrible for putting me in that situation. But I'm entitled to keep my private life private, particularly on a topic that gives rise to so many chauvinistic criticisms.

Anyway many, many congratulations to you I hope all goes well in these final few weeks and good luck with the SIL.

And yes - cats - super cute, super fun and best of all DON'T ask stupid questions!! xxx

[Scarlett13]

I'm 37 next week and my boyfriend is 31, (yep, not married at our age - concentrating on babies)! We met when I was nearly 31, then did long distance for 2 years, then made sure we were compatible living together for a year then started trying for a few years off and on with no joy and now find ourselves here - infertile due to an infection blocking my tubes following a cone biopsy to remove abnormal Cells 7 years ago - but only found out this through surgery this year. I work with children in health visiting and get asked nearly daily if I have children, if I want children etc etc. It's hard. I've worked with children in varying roles all my adult life because I love children. I hopefully start injecting next week, so I'll be hopefully making lots of eggs to celebrate my 37th birthday! This is not where I ever thought I'd be but I'm so pleased I've found my man and now have a chance at having a baby at last x

[Scarlett13 in reply to Scarlett13]

Typo - my boyfriend is 41!

[Tugsgirl in reply to Scarlett13]

My OH is 41 too. Good luck to you both on your journey xx

[Scarlett13 in reply to Tugsgirl]

I know your journey has been one of the toughest and I wish the both of you lots of luck too for the next stage xx

[Hidden in reply to Scarlett13]

How utterly frustrating that these medical issues are only uncovered when women start trying to conceive. Why aren't better investigations being done earlier on? I'm so sorry to hear about the news, but wishing you a whole lot of luck for the up coming egg collection. I hope you get a bumper crop for your birthday xxx

[Lilli79 in reply to Hidden]

So true!! We got married when we're 31, having been together since we were 26 (we're the same age). We had 'plans'... Get married, then buy a house, then have a baby by 35. Now 37 and still no babies, and all the issues with our fertility only came out in the last year despite us having investigations for 3 years and despite me having numerous investigations years ago for abnormal smears. If we'd had known there was an issue we would have tried much sooner. Apologies to all the ignorant people out there who think that saving up to bring a baby into the world is such a bad thing! I do wish people wouldn't bring age into it either, I really think more is made of it than should be. Women have different bodies and the age range of menopause is so different you just don't know. We were told very loosely that we weren't conceiving because my husband smoked, our diet was poor and I was too overweight (all now rectified, still no baby though!) - like how do they know?! It was just such a vague diagnosis you'd think they would be more informed. Infertility sucks big time.

[Hidden in reply to Lilli79]

You're so right. You've tried to do the right thing; get a roof over your heads and decent jobs so you can both support your family and where does it get you? Presumably you should have got pregnant in your mid-20s and let your husband support you and pay for everything until the stress of being the sole earner starts to turn into a breakdown.

And how awful that your lifestyle and weight were immediately looked to as the cause of the issue without any investigations. It's irresponsible. I think we all know women and men whose lifestyles are a lot worse than ours and and yet - poof - babies appear like rabbits out of a magician's hat regardless of mother's weight, alcohol intake or smoking habits.

I would be really interested to know how many infertile couples were told it was lifestyle first, only to find out several years into treatment that there's a blockage or an imbalance somewhere that, had it been treated in the first place, might have meant much less heartache.

You're absolutely right; women's bodies are different. We start periods at different times, have different lengths of cycles, different levels of pain and bleeding. Fertility needs to start being looked at on an individual basis. These generalisations about age, weight, etc, just waste time.

Sending loads of love and positive thoughts to you, and thanks for sharing your experience xxxx

[Scarlett13 in reply to Hidden]

Thank you - lots of luck to you too x

[Kittygoo]

I totally agree with everything you have said. I am 40 and my partner is 33 and after trying for a year and not falling pregnant I think we both assumed the issue was on my part. After initial testing by my GP my results came back quite positive and my OH said oh well I don't need to get tested I'm OK but I insisted and that's when we realised he had issues. Since being referred to a clinic and starting the process of ivf we have found out through dna fragmentation tests that his sperm is very poor yet my test results have been very positive "for my age" don't get me started on that phrase!! I have told some members of my family but my oh hasn't and doesn't really want to talk about it. I understand how hurt and upset he is but I know when he does eventually tell his family he will allow the assumption that the issue lay with me and I will go along with it cause I love him but I agree with you I really wish there was a more open debate about male infertility.

[Hidden in reply to Kittygoo]

That's so lovely that you're prepared to protect your partner like that. And yet you're the one getting all the comments about your age, despite having good results. It's ridiculous that people always, always make the assumption it's the woman's fault.

Maybe one day people will start seeing what a strain this placing on both men and women and we'll be treated equally. At the end of the day, no one chooses to be in this situation, no one's to blame for being in this position and dealing with the stress of people's ignorant attitudes certainly doesn't help any of us want to speak more openly about it.

Wishing you lots of luck for the next steps, and I hope your partner is coping ok with his diagnosis xxx

[Kittygoo in reply to Hidden]

Thank you so much for your lovely reply. xxx

[Loopielu]

I'm over here like 'Gah! You're all spring chickens!' 😂. I'm 41.5 (so important to remember how fast 42 is hurtling towards me 😏) and DH is 50....! Labelled geriatric in clinical fertility terms 😳. At the start of the year that made me feel pretty shitty but my GP simply said 'you are NOT too old to have a baby and don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise', which is, perhaps oddly, one of the nicest things someone has said to me on this journey... unfortunately there are certain things that you cannot reverse as you age - you only have a set number of eggs and quality does decline (although rate and severity vary by individual), so the older you are, the smaller your chance of success gets. But that's no reason not to try. How will you ever know if you don't? And you could be one of the lucky ones...

I may just be thicker skinned because I'm over 6ft and used to insanely personal (and often stupid) comments about my 'height for a woman', so I can deal pretty well and patiently with people commenting on things they really should think through before opening their mouths about. Does still amaze me how people don't have a filter tho 🤷🏼‍♀️. I just don't stoop to their level anymore and silence often works much better than some cutting come back (as I find I often end up feeling bad for being snarky, so it's still lose lose).

I hear you on the poked and prodded and wanting to do it naturally piece. My hindsight advice - having had a laparoscopy at 36 and giving it a go for 4 years because I so hated the thought of IVF - is to just suck that feeling up and go do it with your head high, before you tip past 40. Your odds are way, way better than mine are now! (My very lovely GP also said to me to just think of it as someone helping out with the mechanics - it's just clinical so detach from it like that. Easy to say, hard to do. But a good mindset to try and keep.)

Good luck and keep smiling through those gritted teeth 😬😊 xx

[Hidden in reply to Loopielu]

This is all really inspirational stuff. What a lovely, lovely GP you've got; if only all the medical professionals we have to deal with could be so good!

You sound really resilient and positive which is so good to hear. A friend of mine went through IVF for 9 years and gave birth to her beautiful, healthy boy at the age of 46. As you say, you just don't know unless you try.

Wishing you lots of luck for the future. And may your GP continue to be so comforting and wise - he/she should teach others how to be so compassionate and non-judgemental! xxx

[S-Joys]

I was told at 32 that as a childless woman, I was selfish and obviously didn't want to sacrifice my life to bring up a child! I was furious to say the least. When I explained there are many reasons why men and women choose not or are unable to have children at whatever age, I was told there was no excuse, there's always ways, including the comments, just have ivf or 'just' adopt! As if it's that easy!

Yes this was a man, a 37 year old childless man! But for some reason, he didn't see himself as selfish as his partner is still in her 20s and he has time.

[Hidden in reply to S-Joys]

It's unbelievable that anyone - man or woman - can be so insensitive. And it is so frustrating that men who have younger partners are exempt from criticism or the finger of blame for being 'selfish and putting career first', and yet in the reverse situation the woman would be considered some sort of cougar.

So, so frustrating. And completely deluded to think 'just' a bit of IVF or 'just' a quick adoption will solve the problem. Idiot! I hope you're surrounded by many more loving and considerate people who at least try to understand how being childless by circumstances, at whatever age, isn't something anyone chooses! xxx

[Dual]

First of all. What a rude p***k! 37 is nothing, I'm 41, found out I'd miscarried on my 41st birthday. Oddly enough I've never experienced ageism from the general public whenever being asked about planning kids. But, saying that I did think I experienced it at the hospital when I miscarried. (I live in SE Asia). It felt a bit like the only cause of the miscarriage is your age and what do you expect! But you read that miscarriage and infertility are pretty common of women of all ages. Not just late 30s and early 40s. There are so many reasons why people are starting later, but anybody suggesting that you've left it too late in the day at 37 is pretty I'll informed. In fact most of my friend conceived late 30s no problem!

Oddly enough I found people making comments when I was a lot younger! Like 'get your skates on, you aren't getting any younger' saying all this when you don't even have a partner! Are we meant to just grab a man off the streets?

I make a point of not asking people if they have children, as if this validates us as human beings, if they do have kids, they will tell me soon enough. And if people ask me I normally give a very blunt 'no' and change the subject very quickly. They normally get the hint!!!

[Hidden in reply to Dual]

That's an awful experience to have on your birthday. I'm so sorry, and I hope you're coping ok with the aftermath. I miscarried 10 months ago and it can still feel very raw at times. And how sh*tty that while undergoing something so traumatic they point at your age as a factor! Great bedside manner. It doesn't matter what age a woman loses a pregnancy; they should be treated with dignity, respect and professionalism, not made to feel like they're to blame!

Most of my friends have waited to have kids too. It's very rare for people to be starting a family in their 20s nowadays. So all this means is that issues of infertility are being identified later, it doesn't necessarily mean that because women are over 30 they're over the hill and left it too late. The medical profession needs to catch up with this and stop making women feel like it's their fault if they can't conceive or they have the terrible misfortune of losing a pregnancy.

You're right as well - people make those crass comments to younger women all the time too. It's so uncalled for. When has a single man in his 20s ever been told to get his skates on?

Thanks so much for your comment. "Pr*ck" just about sums it up. The trouble is I think it's quite a widely accepted view of people who've never experienced infertility. I wish it wasn't, and I hope it's starting to change, but I definitely feel there's a large portion of society out there who still wrongly believes it.

Best of luck to you with everything xxx

[Joanna1701]

Oh my goodness, just started following you & reading your posts. This one speaks to my SOUL!

I'm 32 yet I always get the "getting too old" and the confusion when I say I've not ever been promoted - like people expect I haven't had children because I've been career driven. When it is actually the opposite. I've purposely not gone for promotions because it adds more stress, which doesn't help with the fertility journey!

[Hidden in reply to Joanna1701]

It's unbelievably frustrating. The ignorance that surrounds childlessness can be so hurtful. And even those throwaway, jokey comments about the clock ticking (thanks a bloody lot, Bridge Jones!) can cut you so deep. I'm so sorry to hear about your struggles, just know that there's a group of amazing people here who know exactly how you feel and are completely behind you when you get those stupid comments xxx

[GiantPanda in reply to Joanna1701]

I've been really feeling this! Have had people I barely know telling me I'd better get a move on since the age of 25, so I totally understand. I'm 41 now and despite being with my partner since we were early 20s, we (I) were only ready to start trying a year ago. I've always been the main breadwinner and lots of circumstances got in the way of when I would have probably started trying in my mid-30s. Now we're having to have ivf. Consultant was really unhelpful by saying 'oh you've been together a LONG time' (dripping in judgement) and then telling my husband in front of me that his low motility /low count 'probably wouldn't be an issue if you were married to a 22 year old.' Lovely. Don't put that idea in his head when he's all baby crazy! Maybe my low amh wouldn't be an issue if I was married to a 22 year old!!

A few years ago before all the fertility stuff started, I was having a stressful time at work and had been quiet and grumpy for a few weeks. I also happened to be drinking a lot of water - simply because I wanted to stay hydrated. This prompted my female manager to ask me in a full office: 'Are you having IVF?'. My age and child free status had caused her to make this assumption. I was so angry, not because she thought I was having ivf although as my manager I would have expected her to ask if I needed any work support, but that she felt it was OK (a) to ask me about ivf and (b) to do it in front of other people.

Now we are going through these fertility challenges without telling a soul around us as, besides not wanting the barrage of questions, I am sure people would be sympathetic to our faces while thinking 'SHE' s left it too late', even though we both have challenges. I'm glad I'm able to vent and get support from all the fantastic people on this forum. Xxx

[Hidden in reply to GiantPanda]

Oh man, so many things I want to say. How dare the consultant say that to your husband! And what the hell is wrong with a woman (or man) waiting until it's the right time to start a family? So not everyone is in a position to start a family at 25 for SO MANY different reasons. That doesn't mean we deserve the pain of infertility, the stress of IVF and the unbelievable insensitive behaviour from almost everyone around us. I can't believe your boss asked you in front of an office full of people! Would they do that if they suspected someone was having cancer treatment??

I've said it before, but this forum is a life-changer, and life-saver for me. I thought I was completely unjustified in feeling crushed by my early pregnancy losses given that I was offered no support or compassion by my care providers. There needs to be a huge shift in the way fertility treatment and miscarriage is viewed by society.

Thanks so much for sharing your story. I wish you and your partner all the best on this journey together, and don't forget you've got a lot of support here should you ever need it xxx

[GiantPanda]

Thanks so much for your message PenRight, and apologies for only just replying. I'm so sorry to read that you didn't get any support for your early losses. Although I've not crossed that path, I recognise the feeling of feeling 'unjustified' in my natural responses to things. Like I should suck it up. Its really sad you were made to feel like that over something so devastating.

Joana, it's awful that you're having the dual judgement of your career as well as not having a child. To use the cliché - we're damned if we do, damned if we don't. I overheard two older nurses having a moan about younger nurses 'expecting the world' because they were pregnant because back when they were having there children there were not as many maternity rights. So despite all of the progress, women are still being criticised for choices - all choices it seems. And it also seems other women are often the ones doling it out. We need to stick together! I was reminded of that dreadful media campaign a few years ago where Kate Garrraway allowed herself to be done up like an elderly pregnant woman to scare younger women into not 'putting it off'. Then I saw it was launched by First Response. Won't be buying any more of those! I'm so glad we all do stick together on this forum. It feels like a really safe space.

I tried to find a link to a clip of The Office Christmas Special to give us a wry smile - where Anne the pregnant temp asks Dawn if she's having kids. Dawn, clearly embarrassed, fumbles through a response and is then told not to leave it too long 'Because there's nothing worse than an old mum.' I just love that scene. So beautifully observed, well written and well acted. It really makes people who act like that look like the crass fools they are!

Much love to you ladies and take care. Xx