Why won't he poo on the loo!!

[ZAMS1983]

Hi, My Son is 4 years old and has never been faceally continent. He was diagnosed at 2 years with "Toddler Diahorrea" he was pooing lots and they were soft and runny, often meaning he couldn't attend nursery because they didn't know if it was infective or not. At age 3 years after I had investigated it myself he was found to have a Dairy intolerance, we saw a Dietician once who gave us the Milk Ladder and said be on your way (Really helpful!!)

At just over 3 years I started toilet training, he was happily weeing on the toilet, but not pooing. This went on and on, I tried every trick in the book to get him too poo on the loo nothing worked. Nursery tried to help too but it made no difference - the only time he went on the toilet was if he happened to be sat on it at the time having a wee. I spoke to the Health Visitors several times but didn't really get very far.

I went to the GP loads, kept being fobbed off and told it was, and I quote "CBA - Cant Be Arsed" syndrome. I lost my temper and the GP said she would speak to Paeds at the hospital, they were of the same opinion the it was "CBA" syndrome and said send the Health Visitor. So HV turns up, I am thinking Here we go again!! But, she was fantastic!! she agreed that a child doesn't spend 12-18 months pooing themselves because of CBA. She suggested it may be a Gluten Intolerence or a Vitamin D malabsorption issue and refered back to the GP. They tried to take blood for a Gluten test but failed so referred to Paeds and suggested I put him onto a GF diet, which I did and it made a significant difference. He now has more solid poos. although not regular and sometimes he can have 2 a day sometimes 6 varying in consistency and amount.

He is still doing 90% of them in his pants, which is where I'm stuck.

Ive tried everything to encourage positive toilet use. I offer incentives, praise him loads for going on the toilet, use sticker charts, give him treats, take things away if he poos his pants (like choosing TV programme, no post dinner treat) but nothing works, he will happily poo his pants and sit in it for hours if you let him, he doesn't tell you he's pooed, if you ask him he denies it, he wont stop what he's doing to go to the toilet.

He was supposed to see the Paeds 26th Sept but they changed it, then they cancelled it and he is now due to see them 19th October (2 weeks today) I went to see the GP yesterday about and they couldn't give me any more support as they had referred to Paeds because they had done all they could, she did write a letter for school explaining this and asking they to support his needs.

I rang the school nurse for help and advise, they told me they don't deal with this kind of thing. Now hes at school he doesn't have a HV so I cant contact them, there is no support system for school aged childrens issues such as my sons.

The school were made aware of the issue in the beginning of this year, they kept saying lets see what he's like at Easter, Lets see what he's like before he breaks up for summer. No formal Care plan was put in place.

When he started school in September I spoke to both his class teachers and TA about it, they were saying they would help etc. So we are 4 weeks into school, Ive met with the teachers once who have said that the TA is "Oh hes gone again" like its such a trauma for them!! (They've done it for 4 weeks try 2 bloody years!! - Sorry just feeling a little p**sed off) We have a communication book that we write to each other in as he goes to school on a bus and I always send clean clothing, wipes and nappy sacks in for them each day.

Today I had a meeting with the Head teacher who has basically told me that my childs toileting issues are impacting on the teaching hours and that I need to start coming into change him as they cant keep doing it. I said I can only do one day a week, the reply was have you got anyone else who can do it?

I cant decide if I'm angry, frustrated, let down, emotional, upset or a s**t mother!! I've just sobbed down the phone to my husband who is now going to be speaking to the head teacher.

I'm studying for a Teaching Diploma and have to attend a work placement 2 days a week and college one day a week plus I work one day a week, it looks like I'm going to have to give all this up because they cant support my son.

Can anyone give me any advise that I can use to help move this forward, I've reached the point where I cant cope anymore and I really feel like I'm a rubbish mum who is a failure.

[SallyandPaul]

Bless your heart so feel for you(which is not a lot of help) . We haven't had the same issues so all I can say is that legally school have a "duty of care " and they have to deal with this. Don't give up what you're doing, Don't be fobbed off they must sort it. Really hope you get some positive help soon. Good luck.

[SallyandPaul]

Me again sorry but can't stop thinking of how unhelpful all the professionals have been and feel so angry for you. Firstly you are a brilliant mum, no one could have tried harder to get help for their child. Secondly it is the school nurses job to help, try them again and thirdly make sure your husband gets that school sorted. Keep going girl !!!

[AliStan]

Like SallyandPaul, I just wanted to say you are NOT a s**t mum, it sounds to me like you are an amazing one, fighting against all the odds to get the right support for your boy.

We never had these issues with school but I'm sure I've read elsewhere on this site, references to the legal requirement for a care plan to be put in place by the school. Yes, it's not fun for them to deal with and yes, they are no doubt resource stretched but that is equally not your little boys fault and it is their responsibility to have to deal with it.

Another thought, have you tried talking to the ERIC helpline at all? For us it was different problems, but I found they were sympathetic and had sensible ideas on how to try tackle some of our issues......but best of all they didn't try and fob me off and I came off the call feeling that I wasn't going mad after all!

I really hope you get some help and answers soon.

[squizita]

The school should have pastoral staff who can put a care plan in place.

My daughter is fearful of all toilets except one potty at home: however she can put her own nappy on, poo in it and take it off (ie she doesn't wear nappies). From what I understand this is a suggested solution in terms of hygiene and encouraging regularity as there are the 2 elements: 1. controlling and choosing to go and 2. the toilet.

Once the first is established the 2nd is easier.

If your son would do this the school should provide a safe place to do it (eg an accessible toilet) and clean up would involve shoving said nappy in the bin.

Of course many kids hate the idea of it - my daughter wants it to be a bit of a secret however agrees it is better than pooing her pants. She had the opposite issue (fear after extremely dry and hard stools). But if he is wary of toilets having a bag with a nappy (we put it open in her pants, she poos in it and then it's binned and the poo flushed) might work.

Also she is now trying to do some on more than just that 1 potty in that 1 place... still scared of her nursery school loos though, leading to some accidents.

[Luella19]

Really good advice already given but just wanted to add that you are not a failure of a Mum. I don't imagine failure mothers reach out for advice and support from others and seek medical help from many sources. It is really hard being a mum sometimes and it sounds like you are doing your best. We all understand first hand the upset, stress and frustration that poo issues have on life. School should be helping more as others have said xx

[Hidden]

You need to take him to the toilet by the hand about 20 mins after meals, even if he says he doesn't need to go. He needs to sit there for some mins. This will train his body. This is conditioning. Are you putting him on an adult toilet or a child's potty? Young children can be really fearful of 'falling in' to adult toilets. At 4, a floor potty is probably better.

[Ellemenopee]

Oh gosh I so feel for you. It's such a difficult thing to go through and because people don't talk about it you feel so alone, but it's actually a lot more common that you'd think.

Has your doctor ruled out constipation? I know it sounds daft with him having runny poos and pooing lots, but these can actually be signs of constipation and with soiling it's often the cause.

We had terrible trouble getting our son to poo in the toilet. I could see he needed a poo but would refuse to do it, and then poo his pants. I found completely ignoring the issue - no rewards no stickers no reminding him to go etc, really worked for us. I spoke to our community health nurse and she explained that when a child has a fear of the toilet, rewards are actually very tricky. Think of something you're afraid of (spiders, heights, the dark or whatever) then think someone told you 'today every time you hold a spider (or whatever) you'll get a sweet. It wouldn't make you want to hold the spider, but would make the fear worse because you wouldn't be able to stop thinking about it. Also don't punish any accidents/soiled pants as that will make it worse too. If this doesn't work then there's other techniques you can try like putting pull ups on for poos, then sitting on the toilet with pull ups on, then cutting out a hole for the poo to fall into the toilet before finally t moving the pull up for poos.

Also having a toiletting routine is really important as someone else said about 20 mins after breakfast and evening meal. My son has 10 mins of iPad on the toilet to encourage him. Also he has a foot stool that raises his feet and a toilet seat for security.

I got some leaflets from my GP that talked of 'sneaky poo' that was really helpful for my son and I think there are some on the ERIC page. I'd also speak to their helpline as they are amazing and so helpful.

Sorry this is so long and probably a bit garbled but through ERIC I'm sure you'll be able to find the right support to help your little boy.

[JANETMBENTON]

Wow, what a sorry story about total incompetence from what should be professionals! My Grandson is 7 and still has problems though I suspect for a different reason/cause. We did get a fair amount of help, from HV, school nurse, paediatrician, play therapist and are still receiving it. From our experience we learnt that firstly you need to discount a medical reason for the problem. The paediatrician should investigate every possible cause. If and only if there is no medical cause you need to tackle the behavioural issue which is a mine field. We too went down the route of praise, star charts and treats none of which worked. We learnt that pooing in the toilet is not an achievement it's a life skill, therefore it shouldn't be rewarded. This also makes the issue a big one for the child, keeping it in the forefront of their mind and the only two things they can control are food and toileting and they will control it if they want to. Rewards encourage them to control the issue more. It's so difficult to play it down but it does work. Invest in some continence pants, the Ines from the Eric shop are really good and make the child feel more secure. Also some pads designed for kids, you can get these on Amazon. Encourage the child to be more independent in the cleaning up of the mess, the pads and pants really help with this. The school should put a care plan in place, if they don't, complain to board of governors. They have a duty to meet every child's specific needs. Hope this helps. It can take over your life and is so difficult to deal with. Good Luck.

[dee11134]

Hi

I related with so much of your post it was incredible.

Like you, my son was diagnosed with toddler diarrhoea and then IBS.

It’s so hard to fit it all in but I encountered problems with health visitors who never took my complaints seriously and understood that consistently loose stools is a problem.

This went on for nearly two years, in that time I found out about the FODMAP diet, read up about it.

I started it earlier this year, the hospital were generally very supportive but even they didn’t know much about this. Until I saw the dietician who praised me on getting my head around it.

So the long and short of it was that before then, nothing would work, bribes, sticker charts, a telling off, nothing.

Once the stools started forming up, we were able to work on the psychological aspect. Nothing was overnight.

But an increasing awareness from him, confidence in using the potty and toilet (we reverted back to the potty for a while), asking him to help clean, showing him how toilets work..... and finally good old bribery finally worked.

It’s not been easy and our journey has been painfully hard. You are not a failure, but I understand all those thoughts and feelings and all the mixed emotions you feel for your child; the overwhelming sorrow, the unbelievable frustration. All of it.

I can’t possibly succinctly write down our whole experience in this post, but I’m happy to offer any support along the way. Also everyone’s journey is different so what works for one may not the other, or not in the same diet of way/process/timeline.

The school have a statutory (legal) obligation under the children and families act to be drawing up a care plan with you In how they are going to accommodate his need and yes, at this stage, it is a need, a health need/disability under the act that they need to recognise and act upon. But from one mama bear to the other, you have to be his strongest advocate, with the school, with the health professionals.

Wishing you the best of luck. I saw no hope at all, just 5 months ago. I couldn’t see how it would ever improve, but it really has. Keep persevering and doing what you are doing. Trust your instincts and be heard in an assertive way, not negative.

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