Diabetes India

Strong message received

"nbreight2 minutes ago

No, they can't! Telling otherwise is misleading and might force us to have to forbid you to post and or reply."

This is what i received from an administrator.

"Vow. So sorry to receive this reply from you. I know you are very eager to block my posts and i already told @activity2004 about it.

Why are you so confident that kidneys can't heal ?"

This is what i replied.

72 Replies
oldestnewest

hmmmmmm

Reply

I thought forum is for open discussion....and not for forcing opinions....

I don't think it will be wise even to threat a practicing Doctor.....a well qualified person....always very soft and never insulted any one in forum this way....

nbreight I am really sorry to note this....

5 likes
Reply

Dear all

Suramo is a qualified Dr

I don't doubt his knowledge

4 likes
Reply

Logically ....i will better go with opinion expressed by a open minded qualified doctor...

7 likes
Reply

There is no way a qualified physician would claim that kidney failure can be healed. That's against most basic things learned in med school.

But okay, maybe he is a doctor of another science?

1 like
Reply

He is a Dr of medical science. Also suggest that you read Dr Richard Bernstein book on diabetes.

He is >80 years of age, a type 1 diabetic and practicing Dr who treats diabetes.

Any Type 1 diabetic serious about his or her disease would have read his book or at least seen some of his videos on YouTube.

Rest upto you.

All the best.

4 likes
Reply

What does dr Richard Bernstein's book have to do with suramo?

Reply

What suramo said is in that book

Reversing kidney disorder

Pl read for better control of type 1

5 likes
Reply

Maybe we are not talking about the same thing.

i know for a fact that a kidney function can NOT be increased by any means. Once it is damaged its function will continue to decrease until dialysis becomes unavoidable.

Reply

Please let us know where in the book does it say that about the kidney, Shashikantiyengar.

Reply
Reply

Activity2004

I have already replied how K function can be regained.

When liver can heal with IDM and we have jan ran achieving that getting her ggt levels dropped why not kidneys ? The deterioration of organ functions are due to edema. Once you get rid of edema the organ functions can be regained. In late cases where there is gross damage to kidneys leading to fibrosis the kidney transplant is the option.

Nbreight is again trying to prove a point that is unnecessary. I'm basically practising medicine and we treat patients as a whole. I have to know about all the diseases. Well nbreight seems to have more expertise than me. I'm happy if he can prove his points.

3 likes
Reply

What do you mean by "K function"?

i'm talking about nephron damage which is irreversible.

1 like
Reply

nbreight

K means kidneys.

Well D is a disease of end arteries. The organs damaged are supplied by end arteries. Heart > coronaries, retina > retinal artery. kidneys have two parts. Cortex and medulla. Cortex get blood from glomerular arteries which are end arteries. Nephrons have two parts. glomerulus and renal tubules. Glomerulus is made of arteries coiled into a funnel like structure. They constitute cortex. Renal tubules lie in medulla.

Renal cortex once damaged can't heal.

Please refer standard books to learn how kidneys work. You will find that in physiology books of first mbbs.

Glomerular function is to allow all the blood into the tubules which then absorb all that is required by the body and discarding what is waste. If cortex is irreversibly damaged on ultrasound examination there will be loss of cortico medullary differentiation. Renal tubular function is disturbed by edema and once if edema is get rid of tubular function can be reinstated. Only fibrosed part can't recover function because origin K tissues then have been replaced by nonfunctional fibrous tissues.

Please surf for nephrons and you will get videos showing how they function.

Thanks for asking.

4 likes
Reply

Appreciate that edema caused by factors such as

- Sitting or staying in one position for too long

- Eating too much salty food

- Premenstrual signs and symptoms

- Pregnancy

will disappear once the cause is passed. Except for the salt i can't see what cause of edema in the kidney could be "removed". Once the capillaries are damaged (maybe what you mean by renal cortex damage?) there is no way to "grow them back" is there?

1 like
Reply

nbreight

Well there is localized edema and generalized edema - anasarca.

In D salt is not responsible for edema. It's glucose in high concentration in tissue fluids because of high blood sugar. This high tissue levels of glucose exerts osmotic pressure causing fluid to accumulate in the tissues. That causes edema of organs. It's different from subcutaneous fluid collection that is apparently seen and salt is primarily responsible.

3 likes
Reply

nbreight

Yes. Once renal cortex damaged it can't be regenerated but the cortex can't be damaged so easily. When there is sudden fall in blood pressure below 70 systolic for a long time due to septicemic shock or in accidental hemorrhage in pregnancy acute renal cortical necrosis occurs. That is irreversible but in diabetes such sudden loss of renal cortex doesn't occur. In D It occurs as a result of gradual obliteration of blood vessels as occurs in chd cvd.

3 likes
Reply

So what you are saying is that the kidneys continue to work as they are designed to for a very long time during which removing the cause of the edema, for diabetics typically poorly regulated blood sugar and too hight blood pressure the kidney will continue to function as it should. But there is no "healing" in the sense of function growing back returning to its former level that is taking place. It is a matter of stopping the damage to the kidneys as long as the kidney function is still sufficient.

Reply

nbreight

No sir. There is structural damage and function loss. In D it is dysfunction due to edema. Once edema is cleared the kidney regains its function completely. Structural damage occurs after a very long time if the cause persists. It's like if there is edema of our limb due to some injury or pressure we can't move our limb for some time i.e. our limb becomes dysfunctional. Once the swelling is cleared the limb starts functioning again.

3 likes
Reply

mmmmm suramo so much technical discussion????

I am really impressed to read such detailed physiology by Doctor of some non medical field :P

4 likes
Reply

Now,discussion is going in the positive direction! :)

4 likes
Reply

cure

😝😝😝😝😜😜😜🐒🐒🐒👍👍👍👍

2 likes
Reply
1 like
Reply

Useful link!

Thanks for posting!!

1 like
Reply
1 like
Reply

cure

Really yaar. Aap log kitna padhate ho. Exacty my words. Pranam aap guruon ko.

Good links. Great.

3 likes
Reply

Activity2004

Everything you need not find in books. If books had all the answers we would not be discussing here and D would not have to form this forum. I wish this issue could end here. Let moncatsvs try seriously what i have recommended and come up with results.

Well anup may have a word on the issue.

2 likes
Reply

sciencedaily.com/releases/2...

Are they really Doctor of medicine???

1 like
Reply
Reply

My immature/unscientific information is that, only those having DM qualification is a Doctor of Medicine - ie like MBBS, MD, DM. Others may be general medical practitioners, physicians or surgeons.

1 like
Reply

ShooterGeorge

In allopathy basic degree is mbbs. Then internship for one year. Then 3 year post graduation for md ms degrees in various faculties. Then two year course for dm - the superspecialisation llike cardio nephro ct surgery uro nephro surgery.

Reply

Activity2004

you too have doubt ? Let moncatsvs try keto diet for a few months and let's all wait for the results. No need to fight. I'd like to end the matter here.

3 likes
Reply

Sent a messag. Please check. Was sent earlier. It's okay.

Reply

nbreight

So now you doubt my qualification too. Great.😊😊😊

2 likes
Reply

Wonderful!!!

Reply

Perfectly said, anup. Thank you.

3 likes
Reply

@Anup

Nice to see you back.

In the end the truth should prevail.

As i have said the people including doctors and endos are misinformed and improperly trained. Also doctors keep a high ego about their knowledge believing that what they have been taught is the only truth but one should be ready to update the knowledge. I'm not perturbed by personal attacks. They are not necessary and are not subject related.

One fact i forgot to mention in my reply is that even if we donate one K out of the two the remaining K in the donor and recipient functions fully well doing overwork. So by that logic if our blood vessels are not very badly affected, which will then require another calculation, the diabetic patients can tolerate at least 50% the structural damage to the K. This is a very rough calculation. But such a heavy structural damage don't occur so easily.

Thanks bro.

3 likes
Reply

Some guys stop learning as soon as they cross the Medical Institution gate. Afterwards if at all any information is gathered, it may be from med reps.

Some are seen to be of the opinion that the frontiers of science are frozen once for all with their acquisition of degree or diploma.

As you rightly said, only those who update should & would remain.

Glad to see that provocations didn't perturb you. My salutations.

1 like
Reply

@Anup

cure

Thank you friends but my thinking is different. I and for that matter all the doctors in india and perhaps all over the world have learnt medical science because of these poor ??🐒🐒 people. My first encounter with this class was when i was in first mbbs. We the first year students used to dissect cadavers to learn anatomy. They were poors orphaned people. Nobody to cremate their bodies. But were they poor really ??? No. They gave us so much knowledge about human organs and anatomy.

Since then i have learnt everything in general hospitals. I learnt how to give injections and do phlebotomy on these poor people. I don't care for their financial status but they were far richer than me. They had much to give to me.

During my postgraduation i learned to operate and the patients who allowed a knife to be used on them by a novice were these poors. Any doctor howsoever reputed he or she may be owe a lot to these poor people. If they were not there and had not surrendered their ultimate worth - their bodies to learn we would not be what we are today. Thanks you are praising me and i feel elated but that act of mine i consider as a small gesture to pay back to the society and poors. I still feel that it's a god given gift to me and doctors and if the patients are not there our skill is useless. Patients are still to be respected because they help us earn our bread and butter and keep our knowledge and skills sharp.

I have never felt that i'm doing something divine and i also don't claim i'm a saint.

Sorry for my hyperbole.

6 likes
Reply

@suramo, what a noble thought! What a noble view & approach!! What a noble person!!!

My humble hearty congratulations. Three cheers to @suramo ... ... hurrey!!!!

1 like
Reply

ShooterGeorge

Thanks but that is the truth.

Reply

If we read the book of Dr Richard Bernstein we can read that he has reversed many conditions with a narrow range of blood sugar maintenance

2 likes
Reply

We are here to discuss and express and share own experience for benefit of other members...

Threatening like this is really sabotaging the said very meaning of forum...

5 likes
Reply

You're right, cure.

3 likes
Reply

No one is allowed to make threats. Any questions, please send me a PM ASAP.

2 likes
Reply

cure

Shashikantiyengar

Activity2004

Thank you all. But i didn't want to disclose that i'm a practising doctor and didn't want to influence by my qualification but wanted the truth to be accepted. I have no grudge against anybody. I know the people here are not well informed about their medical condition. There are many misconceptions amongst the lay people. I wish we could give better understanding about D and make their lives better.

And i still stick to what i said " kidneys can heal with proper dietary management". S. Cr 10 shows that still a major amount of K function is left and whatever deterioration of function has occurred is because of renal edema and once the patient gets rid of this edema with IDM the K function can be recovered.

6 likes
Reply

Well suramo nbreight

I always feel....we are still learning....medical science is continuous evolving...every day new things are coming out....

Every thing has many aspects and angle...

We are here to discus and understand... share..learn..

Such threats will certainly ruin the conducive environment of forum...

If any one has valid points he can discuss further..that will be helpful for members...

Suramo may be right or may be wrong...we can argue... we can make our point with valid reasoning...this will help other members to gain further knowledge..

silencing his voice won't lead us anywhere...

6 likes
Reply

cure

Well said big brother. I completely agree with you. Nobody can claim to have 100% knowledge. We have to discuss issues here. Even i find many important informations, which i was never taught or never came across in my practice, from you. For example although i used mg for many conditions i learnt a lot about mg and its formulations from shashi recently. So you are all well informed and this is the beauty of this forum.

Well i want to forget such events like bad dreams. Let's all carry on with our motive to fight D.

Thank you all. Really i have learnt and am learning a lot from all of you.

7 likes
Reply

It is felt that people in discussions be aware of the four quotations, one of Albert Einstein, one of George Bernard Shaw, one of Prof Bickerton & one of Arthur C Clark available at appropedia.org/Diabetes_mel...

Reply

In his reply to moncatsvs' post Hello Folks suramo claimed twice that LCHF diet could "heal" kidney failure. i seriously doubt a person uttering such utter nonsense could be a physician.

2 likes
Reply

nbreight

Better you increase your knowledge or read more or keep an open mind before using a harsh language like "utter nonsense"

4 likes
Reply

Shashikantiyengar

😝😝😝😝😝😝😝😝.

Shashi. I'm not disturbed by such words. He seems to be quite upset.

But he is confusing K failure with K dysfunction. S.cr 10 of moncatsvs is due to K dysfunction and not failure but all the books perhaps write this as K failure. Ada aha ama are yet to accept that lchf or any other low carb diet is helpful in reversing D. Even today the books describe t2d as beta cell failure and not dysfunction.

And our body organs have tremendous capacity to recover regenerate and revive. Even post mi dead heart muscles and brain cells in alzheimer's have been shown to revive by stem cell therapy.

Unless the renal function tests, sonograms and ct mri don't show that K have fibrosed there are chances that K will recover.

Please let's all not make it an ego issue.

🙏🙏🙏

But thanks for supporting the truth.

3 likes
Reply

I doubt whether there are many people capable of appreciating such nuances.

Reply

I believe this forum is for expressing views, opinions and experiences of the members for information to others. It is upto the members to accept/agree or disagree. For example, a section of the members do not accept LCHF diet for normalising sugar levels whereas other section is experiencing normal sugar levels with LCHF diet alone without medication. Similarly, let us not enter into controversy with Suramo's opinion.

3 likes
Reply

HARIKRISHNAN

Well said.

2 likes
Reply

Some nice lines from our scriptures...

'वादे वादे जायते तत्व बोध'

means : Every debate brings forth understanding of principles.. We are here to debate..learn from other members...and ofcoz apply our own mind..we need to use our own judgement... I always say....

हंस श्वेतः बकः श्वेतः । को भेदो बक हंसयोः ?

नीर क्षीर विवेके तु । हंसो हंसः बको बकः !

A swan is white, a stork is white. What's the difference between the swan and the stork? When it comes to separate the water from milk, a swan is a swan and a stork is a stork.( It is considered by Sanskrit poets that swan has some mystical power to separate milk from water which is called Nir=water kshir=milk vivek = wisdom)

4 likes
Reply

Very interesting information, new to me.

Thank you.

Reply

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

The present case report shows that a low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet improves glycemic control, reduces body weight and may prevent the development of end-stage renal failure in an overweight patient with type-2 diabetes. Furthermore, it raises the concern that the obesity caused by the combination of a high-carbohydrate diet and insulin may have contributed to the patient's failing kidney function.

Guess Utterly misleading study indeed !!! :P

3 likes
Reply

Then you are talking about PREVENTING the renal failure, not healing it. Not quite the same thing, i'd say.

1 like
Reply

sciencedaily.com/releases/2...

"Knowing how the ketogenic diet reverses nephropathy will help us identify a drug target and subsequent pharmacological interventions that mimic the effect of the diet," said Dr. Mobbs. "We look forward to studying this promising development further."

This study was funded partly by the National Institutes of Health and by the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation.

4 likes
Reply

cure

I already posted long back that D is a very simple disease as far as etiopathogenesis is concernd. High bs > high glucose in tissue fluids > osmotic pressure draws fluid into the tissue space > tissue edema > less oxygenation of tissues with increased intratissue pressure > more ros generation > nascent oxygen chelating proteins and damaging tissues > inflammation > organ damage.

Any diet that reverse this process, brings down bs levels will resolve tissue edema > improve oxygenation of tissues - organs and organ functions are regained.

Very simple. Just control bs but whenever bs levels reach higher than certain levels - 140 at present it has adverse effect on body tissues.

2 likes
Reply

Unfortunately nobody wants simple solutions. Moreover there may be vested interest groups trying to complicate things or make simple things appear complicated.

Reply

nbreight

Prevention yes. But renal tubuler function also depends on pressure gradient. So when there is renal medullar edema the tubular function gets impaired. Once D is controlled the edema diffuses and tubular function is regained. That's healing.

3 likes
Reply

By pressure gradient, do you mean blood pressure or something else?

1 like
Reply

I like learning attitude! :)

2 likes
Reply

nbreight

No. Blood pressure doesn't work on renal tubules. It's the pressure gradient between intra and extra tubular environment. The renal tubules pass through connective tissue - the renal matrix. When abnormal fluid collects in this matrix i.e. tissue edema there is external pressure on tubules. Tubules are not like metal pipes but are made of epithelial tissue akin to the internal skin - lining of blood vessels and organs with tremendous absorbing capacity. Daily about 170-180 litres of blood is filtered through the glomerulus out of which we pass 1-2 litres as urine. This shows the tremendous absorption power of renal tubules and also why kidneys can't lose their function so easily. It takes about 20 odd years for kidneys to lose major function in uncontrolled diabetic patients. External pressure can disturb the pressure gradient and tubular function. That's renal dysfunction. Once edema is cleared the tubules - kidneys recover the function.

5 likes
Reply

@suramo is giving a diploma course for free.

I do not expect such questions from members with such extentions to their usernames.

2 likes
Reply

It appears to be obvious to me! :-)

Reply

nephritis is a major consequence of un controlled diabetes and may cause death .While diet may influence the diabetic control,it may be prudent to rely on the views of a qualified and experienced nephrenologist if one is afflicted with the disease.

Reply

bhanjois72

Only if the nephrologist is openminded and has updated his / her knowledge. The understanding of diabetes has undergone a tremendous revolution in the last few years and whatever had been discussed here is worth keeping in mind.

4 likes
Reply

bhanjois72

the world of info is now open to all. Scan the Web for lots of alternate knowledge..

2 likes
Reply

anup,

Basically medical science is a logic. If one has understood the anatomy and functioning of the organs one can't go wrong. In medical practice many events occur all of a sudden and books can't have answers to all of them. There are always if and buts and multifaceted explanation to those events. We as a medical practitioner have to find a way that suits the patients' need. Only logic works there.

4 likes
Reply

You may also like...