Is There A Natural And Available Alternat... - Cure Parkinson's

Cure Parkinson's

26,568 members27,876 posts

Is There A Natural And Available Alternative To Fecal Microbiome Transplantation (FMT) ?

chartist profile image
110 Replies

Since it looks like fecal microbiome transplantation (FMT) is not currently available to the masses, unless you you have C.diff, severe IBS, live in China or are able to find a trial and qualify for it. I have been wondering whether we have anything else at our disposal that might be able to offer a significant portion of the health benefits of FMT? FMT is known to positively alter the gut microbiome away from pathogenic bacteria toward health promoting bacteria, resulting in improved health and significant reduction of multiple health issues and in some cases it may actually act as a cure.

I think current research confirms many of the health benefits of FMT and I previously wrote about many of these benefits here :

healthunlocked.com/cure-par...

FMT works by transplanting a portion of the healthy gut microbiome from a very healthy donor into a person with a specific health issue to try and improve the health issue of the recipient.

One way to try and emulate the effects of FMT on the gut microbiome is through the use of probiotics, but in general, probiotics are too underpowered to obtain the same effects as FMT. Many manufacturers try to improve the effects of their probiotics by including prebiotics in their probiotics to form synbiotics with the intention being that the prebiotic will feed the probiotic bacteria as well as feed the healthful bacteria in the gut to attempt to increase the dominance of healthful bacteria in the gut and consequently reducing pathogenic bacteria. Synbiotics are a good idea, but apparently insufficient to grow the healthful bacteria into dominance in the gut microbiome.

When you consider that these synbiotic capsules are often delivered in a capsule that is generally of a size that can deliver 500 mg or less of a supplement, you start to realize why these synbiotics are underpowered for the task at hand. Afterall, FMT is usually delivered in a significantly larger dose than these synbiotics which contain both the probiotic and prebiotic in such a small capsule.

This brings me to a new study (April, 2024) that used a combination of 6 probiotics and prebiotic (Inulin) in combination, but the prebiotic alone consisted of 5 grams (5000 mg) of Inulin prebiotic. Compare this to the size of synbiotic capsules that are sized to deliver 500 mg or less of both probiotic and prebiotic combined in one capsule. The 5 grams of inulin alone is 5 times or more than the combined total prebiotic and probiotic in the synbiotic capsule and likely at least 10 times the amount of prebiotic found in the capsule. Here is a link to the trial (RCT) that showed that using this larger amount of inulin with a fairly high dose of colony forming units (CFUs) of 30 billion CFUs of probiotic bacteria had a significant health impact on the participants that received it, in terms of significantly increasing health promoting short chain fatty acids (SCFAs) and anti inflammatory IL-10 over 12 weeks :

sciencedirect.com/science/a...

Here is a relevant quote from the RCT :

' There were no significant differences between the baseline characteristics of patients in the two groups. Serum IL-10 was increased in the synbiotic group (p < 0.0001). Moreover, synbiotic supplementation increased fecal concentration of acetate (p < 0.0001), butyrate (p = 0.043), propionate (p < 0.0001), and valerate (p < 0.026). A significant positive correlation was observed between the changes in fecal butyrate level and serum IL-10 concentration in the control group (r = 0.48, p = 0.01).'

It is worth reiterating that the p value of the increase of anti inflammatory IL-10 was less than 0.0001, a significant improvement and the increase in SCFAs was also significant. It is also worth mentioning that studies have shown that FMT also significantly increase SCFAs. The following study adds confirmation to the idea that FMT increases SCFAs :

mdpi.com/2218-1989/13/10/1039

Here is a relevant study quote :

' In addition, there was a significant increase in combined SCFA levels at 12 months post-transplant within the rCDI group compared to that of their pre-transplant levels, and, more specifically, acetate, propionate, and isovalerate increased from pre-transplant to 12 months post-transplant. The longitudinal aspect of this study allowed us to identify mechanisms that contribute to the durability of responses to FMT, as well as characterize the unique patterns of short-chain fatty acid level recovery in rCDI pediatric patients.'

For comparison, the synbiotic I take, contains 300 mg of a prebiotic blend in total. This means that the study dose of prebiotic used is almost 17 times what is contained in my synbiotic, a very significant difference. My synbiotic also contains 300 billion CFUs of 24 probiotic bacteria or about 10 times the CFUs used in the study and 4 times the strains used in the study, if my label is accurate. Currently I see Synbiotics that contain 900 CFUs of probiotic bacteria in two capsules which is 450 CFUs per capsule or 50% more bacteria than I am currently taking in one capsule.

Based on this RCT and its results, the observed benefits would clearly be beneficial in many health issues and especially in health issues which have a significant inflammatory component.

Unfortunately, this study limited the criteria to just these five parameters, but in my opinion, I feel certain that had they expanded the criteria significantly, the results would have revealed significantly more potential for even more health benefits, especially had the study been longer than 12 weeks. They didn't test any markers for oxidative stress, but significantly increasing SCFAs as they did in this study, has reduced oxidative stress in other studies as well as improved the lipid profile. I have mentioned it on the forum before, but in case you missed it, increased SCFAs in the gut, naturally increase gut melatonin and melatonin receptor levels without side effects and melatonin in turn can further increase SCFAs, which is a nice cycle to have going in the dysbiotic gut that PwP are often noted for having. Natural ways of achieving higher melatonin levels are good for the gut microbiome, good for us and good for our health as whole. Did I mention that melatonin is good for PwP?

I have been testing my 300 billion CFUs (from 24 different bacterial strains) synbiotic that also contains 300 mg of prebiotic blend for almost a year which was successful in terms of eliminating bloating. One month ago I added 10 grams of Inulin prebiotic or double the dose used in the above study and because I have psoriasis, I can see changes fairly quickly in the appearance of my skin and in this case, even though just at one month in to testing, I can see noticeable improvement that appears to be continuing and improving so far which I did not see with the probiotic alone. A downside to inulin at the higher dose of 10 grams/day that I am taking is that it causes gas similarly to other prebiotic fibers at such high dose, such as resistant potato starch, but the gas effect has diminished a bit over the month I have been taking it. On the other hand, the 5 grams of inulin used in the study gave me little to no gas.

For now, this may be as close as we can get to the effects of FMT in two supplements that are available to pretty much everyone. In one PD/FMT trial, one participant mentioned that his psoriasis that was refractory to the highly potent topical steroid, Clobetasol, cleared during the trial after receiving FMT in the 12 week trial. In any case, this seems like it may be worth testing to see if it can benefit your health over a 12 week trial for those who are interested. Here are links to the two products I am currently testing. I am not recommending these, just showing what I am currently testing and I will mention that this is not the probiotic used in the PD/Probiotic study that I linked to further down in this post. That study probiotic called HEXBIO, ameliorated constipation and significantly improved MDS UPDRS ll (daily activities) and lll (motor function) scoring :

Inulin

amazon.com/Jerusalem-Artich...

300 Billion CFU Probiotic

amazon.com/Probiotics-probi...

In this September, 2022 review discussing the benefits of increased SCFAs, they show multiple health benefits associated with such increase :

mdpi.com/2304-8158/11/18/2863

Here is a relevant quote from the review :

' SCFAs show various bioactivities, such as anti-inflammatory and immunoregulatory effects, as well as preventive and therapeutic effects on several diseases, including obesity, cardiovascular disease, liver disease, diabetes mellitus, IBDs, diarrhea, constipation, neurodegenerative diseases, neuropsychiatric diseases, cancers, arthritis and periodontal disease, and so on. '

When you look at the above quote from the review, you can start to see many similarities between the effects of increased SCFAs compared to FMT. Add in the anti inflammatory effects from the increased levels of IL-10 and you can see even further similarities to FMT. I think the results of FMT would be much faster than this alternative method because FMT already has the correct bacteria from the beginning whereas the probiotic/inulin combination needs time to develop the health promoting bacteria while diminishing pathogenic bacterial burden.

It is worth mentioning that probiotics have also shown benefit for people with PD who have constipation as discussed here :

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl....

Here is a relevant quote from this systematic review and meta analysis :

' Our analysis suggests that probiotics can be used to improve the constipation and motor symptoms for patients with Parkinson’s constipation, possibly by reducing the inflammatory response and improving gut-brain axis neuron function, whose safety also proved to be good. '

Lastly, many people with PD are deficient in the anti inflammatory mediator IL-10 and the study showed that the combination of the 30 billion CFU probiotic and 5 grams of inulin, significantly elevated IL-10 levels. PwP are also noted for SCFA deficiencies and this may be a safe and effective way of ameliorating those deficiencies and improving overall health.

My take away from these studies and reviews is that this supplement combination may be able to replicate some benefits associated with FMT for PwP and other health issues. Since FMT is currently hard to come by in most parts of the world, this seems like a combo worthy of consideration for at least its constipation alleviating action as well as its significant MDS UPDRS ll and lll motor symptom improving effects. Keep in mind that in the 3 studies from the meta analysis that showed significant MDS UPDRS ll and lll improvement, it was just a probiotic without the 5 grams of inulin. Here is a link to one of those studies :

journals.plos.org/plosone/a...

Here is a relevant quote from the study using only a 30 billion CFU probiotic (HEXBIO)without the 5 grams of inulin :

' Within-group analysis showed significant improvement in the GTT at 8 weeks, in the probiotic group from 125.26 (SD54.81) hours to 77.32(SD55.35) hours, p <0.001. No significant difference was observed in the placebo group. The MDS-UPDRS II (MDS UPDRS III median NMSS and median PDQ-39SI scores in the probiotic group significantly improved compared to baseline. For the placebo group, there was significant improvement in the NMSS scores (p = 0.007) compared to baseline, but no significant improvements were observed in the PDQ-39S, MDS UPDRS II and III.'

Here is a link to the company that makes the probiotic used successfully in the PD/ Probiotic study :

bcrobes.com/

I am testing a different probiotic from Amazon that I linked to higher up in this post .

Given all of the above, it just confirms to me that this supplement combo can have some significant positive health effects that are quite similar to FMT and we won't have to wait 10 or more years, wait for a trial in which you may end up in the placebo group or go to China for a chance to try it. We can try it right now if we wish to!

Art

Written by
chartist profile image
chartist
To view profiles and participate in discussions please or .
Read more about...
110 Replies
Sydney75 profile image
Sydney75

You can likely get in US but insurance will not cover it. The two people I know who had one where at the University of Miami persistent CDIFF

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toSydney75

Yes, you can get it in the US, but it is only approved for C.diff and severe IBS, but generally it is used after standard care has failed. I have not heard of anyone being able to get it for PD unless it was a trial and there has only been one PD/FMT trial in the US. That trial had only 11 participants. If you know of a US facility that will do FMT in people with PD, please post where it is because I think many PwP would like to know.

Art

RBDNoPDYet profile image
RBDNoPDYet in reply toSydney75

Sydney75 - did it help the two people who got it?

saraoutwest profile image
saraoutwest

Of course there’s always the DIY version of FMT. Find a safe donor and away you go!

chartist profile image
chartist in reply tosaraoutwest

You said, ' find a safe donor and away you go '. Sounds simple, but how do you find a safe donor without at least having their transplant multi tested? What if the person appears very healthy by visible standards, but they are in stage one, two or three colon cancer? A lot of colon cancer cases are only found in stage 4.

Art

saraoutwest profile image
saraoutwest in reply tochartist

yes I see your point. A healthy 2 year old grandchild maybe?

chartist profile image
chartist in reply tosaraoutwest

That may not be the best choice either as the human immune system is generally fully developed around 8 years old, which corresponds with the highest natural melatonin levels that humans reach in their lives.

Interestingly, when young mice were given FMT from old mice, the young mice started acting more like old mice and showing signs of aging such as increased inflammatory markers and increased levels of oxidative stress. Conversely, when old mice were given FMT from young mice, they started acting younger and had reduced inflammatory markers and oxidative stress levels.

Maybe FMT from 8 or 9 year old children may be popular in 10 to 20 years.

Art

saraoutwest profile image
saraoutwest in reply tochartist

Interesting! So much to learn. Thanks for all your input. I’m going to try your suggestions.

chartist profile image
chartist in reply tosaraoutwest

Keep in mind that the probiotic/PD study used the probiotic called Hexbio. Here is a link to their website :

bcrobes.com/

The probiotic that I linked to in the original post is what I am testing, not the one used in the study.

Art

gomelgo profile image
gomelgo in reply tochartist

I just started my probiotic program with Florè. Will report back.

chartist profile image
chartist in reply togomelgo

If Flore' is a custom blended probiotic based on your existing gut microbiome, I will be very interested in your results!

Art

gomelgo profile image
gomelgo in reply tochartist

That is exactly it. Apparently I have c diff, which they said is super common, yike! Just started them yesterday. Will keep you posted.

chartist profile image
chartist in reply togomelgo

Well, C. diff also qualifies you for FMT in the US. I will keep an eye out for your updates.

Art

gomelgo profile image
gomelgo in reply tochartist

Not sure what I have access to in NY. It was near impossible to find a way to have the microbiome test because of the regs here. oy!

chartist profile image
chartist in reply togomelgo

mountsinai.org/care/gastroe...

Art

gomelgo profile image
gomelgo in reply tochartist

Good to know! Thanks Art. However, I am no longer open to any antibiotics in my body.

"According to the American Gastroenterological Association, FMT may be an option if you have had:

At least three episodes of mild to moderate C. diff infection that has recurred despite six to eight weeks of treatment with antibiotics

At least two episodes of severe C. diff infection that required hospitalization

Moderate C. diff infection that did not respond to antibiotics for at least one week

Severe C. diff infection or severe colitis caused by C. diff that did not respond to antibiotics within two days "

MBAnderson profile image
MBAnderson

Art, Sold. Thank you, thank you. I've ordered the stuff and am going to give it a try.

JayPwP profile image
JayPwP in reply toMBAnderson

You can also add onions (33% Inulin) to soaked and drained Oats (Inulin there as well) along with Blueberries, Walnuts and soaked and peeled Almonds. It should be enough fiber, but not exactly measurable.

Gioc profile image
Gioc in reply toJayPwP

Onions are also very good 😊.

IMHO there is an easier and more fun way to act on the gut biome, which consists of dietary changes. Personally, I wouldn’t focus on just one vegetable, but as a former farmer, I know a bit about applied botany and would suggest considering cruciferous vegetables while limiting nightshades like tomatoes, potatoes, and eggplants (I know it’s hard, they are very good). Nightshades contain the alkaloid solanine, in varying amounts, higher in unripe fruits and germinating potatoes. For this reason, they are often blamed for promoting inflammation, digestive issues, intolerances and psoriasis.

The fun part is cooking these vegetables (the cruciferous ones) given the wide variety of species and flavors. IMO, it won't take much time to see a change in the gut, so it won't be difficult to apply.

Here’s a list of cruciferous vegetables: cauliflower, cabbage, savoy cabbage, black cabbage, red cabbage, kale, Brussels sprouts, broccoli, turnip tops, mustard, radish, arugula, horseradish.

Umbellifers are also good:

Some examples include: dill, anise, angelica, carrot, caraway, celery, chervil, coriander, cumin, fennel, parsnip, parsley.

But let’s not forget the liliaceous plants that are also very healthy:

onions, garlic, leeks, and asparagus."

The point here is that for me, to modify the gut microbiome in a lasting way, one must change the diet; otherwise, everything goes back to how it was before.

I can already see the experts smiling as they read this post, but I haven’t found many success stories to support their theories. However, I only have my experience as success story , and tasting these pink asparagus from my area is much more fun than an FMT.

Don’t give up; I still want you to be in relative good condition when the cure arrives. I hope it’s soon Jay 😊.

Greetings from Italy.

Gio

it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asp...

m.my-personaltrainer.it/ali...

youtu.be/4cqvfMbZlnM?si=IWu...

you have to remove the skin,

JayPwP profile image
JayPwP in reply toGioc

One success story is all that is needed to start a cascade

Gioc profile image
Gioc in reply toJayPwP

Oh! Just to clarify, this cruciferous diet greatly improves my intestinal motility, but I am not cured of Parkinson's, yet.

JayPwP profile image
JayPwP in reply toGioc

Or maybe you are, but just don't know yet...

Anything the mind can believe, the mind can achieve - Napoleon Hill

Gioc profile image
Gioc in reply toJayPwP

”Anything the mind can believe, the mind can achieve - Napoleon Hill”

True Jay! And that's exactly why I read and write in this forum called CURE PARKINSON’S (it may seem strange to you but every now and then I have to remind myself that the forum is called with two words, "cure" and "Parkinson’s" by will of the founder.)

JayPwP profile image
JayPwP in reply toGioc

I agree

Dabaa profile image
Dabaa in reply toMBAnderson

What stuff, please?

MBAnderson profile image
MBAnderson in reply toDabaa

The Amazon links in Art's post.

Dabaa profile image
Dabaa in reply toMBAnderson

Thank you. I've been taking this - amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B09..., add inulin powder and creatine to my shakes. Other than better poops, no discernible therapeutic gains on my PD which progresses apace... hey, ho.

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toMBAnderson

Hi Marc,

Where did you find the Hexbio probiotic? It seems to be in the price range of PS-128. The bag of Inulin I am using comes with a scoop inside that I believe is 2.6 grams. The study used 5 grams in order to significantly increase the SCFA levels.

Please keep us posted on your testing of this regimen.

Art

MBAnderson profile image
MBAnderson in reply tochartist

I bought what you linked to at Amazon. Was that wrong?

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toMBAnderson

I guess I wasn't clear on that point, Marc. One study that used probiotic only in people with PD, used a probiotic called HEXBIO which has 30 billion CFU from 6 different bacteria. I thought that would be the one to choose if you were going to try and replicate that studies results. Amazon has no listing for HEXBIO but it looks like it can be ordered online.

I linked to the probiotic that I am testing which has 300 billion CFU from 24 different bacterial strains and I added the inulin to that. Imo, the combination I am taking is likely to have a similar or better effect, but that is just my opinion and has no study to support my contention.

Here is a link to the HEXBIO probiotic used in that study :

bcrobes.com/hexbio-mcp-3g-x...

If you want to use this probiotic, you can cancel the probiotic order from Amazon and order this one from the manufacturer.

Whichever probiotic you decide on, I think the inulin will be additive to it.

I'm sorry for not making that clearer, Marc.

Art

MBAnderson profile image
MBAnderson in reply tochartist

That's OK. It's already been shipped. I'll see if it can be returned, otherwise, no problem.

JayPwP profile image
JayPwP

While doing your experiment with 10 grams of Inulin, did you continue with your 1.5 gram of Berberine HCL? Would it affect the result in any way?

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toJayPwP

Yes, I am continuing to use the berberine daily at 1500 mg/day.

Art

LAJ12345 profile image
LAJ12345 in reply tochartist

When my hubby was prescribed berberine and probiotics by the natural medicine doctor she had him take each week about. Not at the same time. Not sure why. She also had him take allimed (garlic) 2x3 times per day with the berberine. It worked for rosacea. But we did also eliminate sugar and gluten at the same time.

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toLAJ12345

I'm not sure why she would have done that, because berberine kills some pathogenic bacteria which would make it easier for the healthful bacteria from the probiotic to get established. It is always hard to be sure what is working when you are taking so many different things. Cutting out sugar altogether isn't easy, at least for me!

Art

LAJ12345 profile image
LAJ12345 in reply tochartist

I think the cutting sugar and gluten was the key to be honest. Less for bad bacteria to eat. We satisfy our sweet tooth by eating the odd date or fig. But we now find vegetables to be very sweet and even sour fruit have a sweet overtone . I think your tastebuds adjust. I now find very sweet things unpleasant. Even sweet potato and pumpkin taste overly sweet now where I used to love them.

lingfield222 profile image
lingfield222

My husband with PD had a pretty poor microbiome when he had it tested. We did this because of chronic and persistent constipation. I had looked into fecal transplants but all looked a bit uncertain, so instead just worked on our diet, essentially following a Mediterranean diet, no dairy (Laurie Mischley’s recommendation) and now, following further testing, it’s in good shape.

He has managed to slow progression which is maybe through the diet, definitely exercise. But the constipation remains a challenge, at least we know this is down to poor gut motor function and not his microbiome.

curiousPD1966 profile image
curiousPD1966 in reply tolingfield222

You might try SUNFIBER. It is a water soluble fiber. Did miracles for me, but along with a low FODMAP diet. Took 3 months and amazing results for me. Bought on Amazon. Suggested by my dietition. I just add 5cc to my cereal. No taste and not grainy. No gas or bloating.

chartist profile image
chartist in reply tolingfield222

Probiotics at a high enough dose can decrease gut transit time (GTT). Here is a quote from the PD/Probiotic trial that I linked to in the original post :

' The GTT in the probiotic group [77.32 (SD55.35) hours] reduced significantly compared to placebo [113.54 (SD 61.54) hours]; mean difference -36.22, 95% CI -68.90, -3.54, uncorrected p = 0.030). The mean change in GTT was 58.04 (SD59.04) hour vs 20.73 (SD60.48) hours respectively (mean difference 37.32, 95% CI 4.00, 70.63, uncorrected p = 0.028). '

The study used the probiotic called Hexbio and it has 30 billion CFUs from 6 bacterial strains. It significantly improved constipation as well as the MDS UPDRS ll activities of daily living and MDS UPDRS lll, motor symptom scoring.

Here is a link to the product :

bcrobes.com/hexbio-mcp-3g-x...

Art

lingfield222 profile image
lingfield222 in reply tochartist

Thanks, really helpful and will track this down and give it a go.

crewmanwhite profile image
crewmanwhite

It is totally possible to heal your gut and repopulate with healthy bacteria without injecting poo.

Many people have fully recovered from PD and healed their gut without this expensive and unnecessary procedure.

Seek advice form an experienced and dedicated naturopath.

Dabaa profile image
Dabaa in reply tocrewmanwhite

'Many people have fully recovered from PD and healed their gut.' That's quite the assertion - do you have any evidence for it?

crewmanwhite profile image
crewmanwhite in reply toDabaa

My story of recovery is widely known, then there are a number of my patients and other people who used different strategies to recover.

If course, mainstream media do not promote these stories because their advertisers (Big Pharma) don't like it.

My story was told on a main TV channel here in Australia a few years ago and a neurologist forced the channel to withdraw the story.

So you need to dig to find the evidence, but it is there.

crewmanwhite profile image
crewmanwhite in reply toDabaa

Here are some links that might be useful:

blogtalkradio.com/parkinson...

amazon.com.au/SHAKY-PAST-Jo...

rethinkingparkinsons.com/

Dabaa profile image
Dabaa in reply tocrewmanwhite

Thank you for your thoughtful follow-up. Appreciated.

Efka profile image
Efka

Hi, The Taymount clinic in the UK has been operating for decades by now helping various disease situations. Might be worth a look although when I investigated many years ago it was an expensive procedure.

Gcf51 profile image
Gcf51

Are you taking? How long? Have you had any success? Are you taking both?

WhyRBD profile image
WhyRBD

Art, who are you using to test your SCFA levels? I have a very similar protocal (bulk inulans and special probiotic yogurts and fermented foods). I have seen a change gut sequencing, but waiting for SCFA test to confirm I am getting the results I need - increaed levels of SCFA's. It does not matter what we you use as long as SCFA levels are returned to normal levels. Step 1 in the treatment for prodromal PD.

Rob

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toWhyRBD

Hi Rob,

I'm not testing SCFA levels. I was already taking the probiotic effectively for bloating and decided to add the inulin based on inulin studies suggesting potential additional benefit and that is when I noticed it was having a positive effect on my psoriasis after about a month of using inulin. When I found the studies that I linked to in the original post that showed the increases in SCFA levels, increased anti inflammatory IL-10 level as well as significantly improved MDS UPDRS ll and lll scoring, I decided to share that information with the forum.

I don't have PD, so I can't talk to that point in relation to the higher dose inulin and probiotics, but the studies seemed clear on what they found and imo that seems like something the forum members might be interested in. The study was only 12 weeks in length. so that seems very doable for those who want to test the combo.

Art

JayPwP profile image
JayPwP

Hi Art, Others,

Any suggestions on when and how to consume the Inulin and Probiotic? I am not able to find the method in the study...

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toJayPwP

My way may not be the right way, but I mix my inulin in a 500 ml bottle of water. I pour out about one third of the water into a glass and then I use a funnel to add the inulin to the bottle. I then top the bottle off with the water from the glass. If I want flavor, instead of adding the water from the glass, I top the bottle off with a juice, such as orange juice or other juice. Replace the lid, shake the bottle very well and sip throughout the day to keep a steady state of inulin in my gut.

I take the probiotic about an hour before dinner. The inulin will promote healthy bacterial growth from the probiotic as well as from the existing gut microbiome.

In the study, it seemed like the probiotic and inulin were given together, twice a day. Here is a relevant study quote :

' In this double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trial, fifty-six adult men with dyslipidemia were randomly allocated to intervention and control groups and received either synbiotic or placebo powder twice a day for 12 weeks. Each synbiotic sachet contained 6 species of probiotic microorganisms with a total dose of 3 × 1010 Colony Forming Unit (CFU) and 5 gr inulin and Fructooligosaccharide (FOS) as prebiotics. '

The Inulin I linked to in the post says it contains inulin and FOS.

Art

JayPwP profile image
JayPwP in reply tochartist

Thank you Art 🙏

I have ordered the below products:

* Urban Platter Inulin Powder, 300g [Fructo Oligo Saccharides, Prebiotic & Rich in Fiber, FOS] amzn.in/d/5vb8vrU

* Boldfit Probiotics Gut Health Supplement 30 Billion CFU For Men & Women with 16 Strains & Prebiotics - Supports Digestion, Immunity Support, Detox & Cleanse - 60 Vegetarian Capsules, White amzn.in/d/eNr3wHg

* ZEROHARM Gut Army Probiotics Supplement For Men & Women |100 Billion CFU & 25 Strains | Gut Health Capsule for Gut Cleanser, Digestion, Acidity Relief, Gastric Medicine, IBS Symptoms - 60 Vegan Tablet amzn.in/d/a7UPzKN

Despe profile image
Despe in reply toJayPwP

Outrageous prices!

JayPwP profile image
JayPwP in reply toDespe

You mean outrageously cheap or outrageously expensive?

😆😆😆

Despe profile image
Despe in reply toJayPwP

Oops, my bad. :) I didn't notice the currency, just the amount.

JayPwP profile image
JayPwP in reply toDespe

I thought as much 😀

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toJayPwP

Jay,

That seems like a similar description to the Inulin product I use, inulin/FOS.

Art

JayPwP profile image
JayPwP in reply tochartist

Yes it is Art

Ghmac profile image
Ghmac

Art, in the list of ingredients of the 300 billion probiotics for men and women, bifidobacterium is listed. Wasn't certain strains of bifidobacteria identified to be related to Parkinson's by the Helsinki study? A quick search brought this up: Bifidobacteria, a type of bacteria found at higher levels in the gut of Parkinson's disease patients, is capable of breaking down levodopa, the gold-standard therapy for the neurodegenerative disease, according to recent laboratory studies. - - We haven't heard much from Helsinki lately.

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toGhmac

That is what I am using, not what was used in the PD study, but the probiotic used in the PD study, Hexbio, contains these three strains of bifidobacteria :

• Bifidobacterium bifidum BCMC® 02290

• Bifidobacterium longum BCMC® 02120

• Bifidobacterium infantis BCMC® 02129

Art

Ghmac profile image
Ghmac in reply tochartist

Thank you

JayPwP profile image
JayPwP in reply toGhmac

Didn't the Helsinki study implicate Desulfovibrio?

Ghmac profile image
Ghmac in reply toJayPwP

YES - Researchers at the University of Helsinki have demonstrated that certain strains of Desulfovibrio bacteria are the likely cause of Parkinson's disease in most cases.

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toGhmac

Personally, I am doubtful about those three strains of Desulfovibrio bacteria being the only cause of PD, but if they are correct about any of those three bacterial strains being the cause of PD, then Metronidazole should cure PD and that should be very easy to test, so why didn't they?

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl....

Here is a relevant study quote :

' Although the incidence of human infections caused by Desulfovibrio spp. is unknown, these organisms are potential pathogens for humans and should be taken into account for empirical antibiotic therapy. Desulfovibrio spp. can be resistant to various antimicrobial agents, including drugs commonly used to treat mixed infections, such as β-lactams combined with β-lactamase inhibitors, cefotetan, and cefoxitin. However, none of the strains tested were resistant to imipenem or metronidazole; these should therefore be considered the drugs most suitable for treating infections caused by Desulfovibrio spp. '

What scientist or research team wouldn't want to find the cure for PD?

Art

Ghmac profile image
Ghmac in reply tochartist

From what I understand PD is a very personalized disease. Everyone seems to have their own customized symptoms, and reaction to medication, supplements, exercise etc. I feel strongly there are probably many causes of Parkinsonism. From herbicides to aquatic bacteria, a million possible causes all create a folded protein . Due to the huge uptick in PD I suspect a lot are environmental or work related causes. I doubt there will be just one cure, but many. IMHO I think they just need to target and stop the alpha-synuclein folds and clumps.

JayPwP profile image
JayPwP

Documentary on FMT

healthunlocked.com/cure-par...

Gcf51 profile image
Gcf51

Art, in your research of Fecal Microbiome Transplantation (FMT), have your came across how they determine healthy guts for transplantation, especially in the treatment of Parkinson.

Probiotic amazon.com/dp/B0C748WVZF?ps...

Inulin amazon.com/dp/B074WKCPS4?ps...

I am on day 4 of the combo of the above and I feel a tingling in my head.

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toGcf51

I have never heard of PD specific screening parameters for FMT. This is a basic review on donor screening for FMT :

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Regarding the probiotic you ordered, that is the one I am testing, not the one used in the PD/probiotic study. I don't have PD. Here is a link to the maker of the one used in the PD study :

healthunlocked.com/redirect...

Art

Gcf51 profile image
Gcf51 in reply tochartist

I am having good results with something. I am trying to determine which supplement is providing my good results. Are you ready to share your experience?

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toGcf51

I'm right around a month and a half in and improvement is continuing at a steady pace with an obvious improvement over when I wrote this post. I don't have PD so I can not comment on that aspect.

Art

Gcf51 profile image
Gcf51 in reply tochartist

I do have PD.

I am on Day 16, my improvements started before taking, so it's doubtful that this is solely responsible.

Thanks Art.

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toGcf51

I think a realistic timeline was shown in the PD/Probiotic/Inulin study of 12 weeks, listed in the original post. The PD/Probiotic study was only 8 weeks and still showed significant improvement in constipation, MDS UPDRS ll and lll.

Art

Shumbah profile image
Shumbah

My Australian girl friend hosts a medical TV show in Japan and is up with all new science.

I am flying from Australia to NYC then on to Antigua for stem cell therapy for other areas of my body . I also qualified for a different stem cell which is FDA approved and donated to them to trail for free for neurological disorders via a nasal spray.

There is a clinic my gil fired is looking into in Mexico for stemcells and stances injected into the brain at the same time she will have FMT I am considering going and have FMT I live in Australia . We both have Refractory Willis Ekbom Disease RLS

My stemcell is with Dr Chadwick Prodromos Tony Robins had his stem cells by this NYC doctor in Antigua he also owns a clinic in Greece .

RLS Dr Adeel Khan does these treatments in Mexico

chartist profile image
chartist

To update and add further to the idea that inulin is additive to the positive effects of probiotics in people with PD, this 2023 human study using inulin in people with PD, suggests that inulin and a few other prebiotic fibers show significant benefit of multiple disease related factors for people newly diagnosed with PD as discussed here :

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Here is a relevant quote from the study :

' This proof-of-concept study demonstrates that a SCFA-promoting prebiotic fiber mixture can be used to modulate the intestinal microbiota in PD patients (i.e., the approach is feasible) and that the prebiotic mixture is well-accepted, tolerated, and safe for use in PD patients. Moreover, the prebiotic fiber mixture may have a clinical impact leading to reduced severity of motor and non-motor PD symptoms and improved gastrointestinal function. '

Art

Gcf51 profile image
Gcf51

In a private message (Chat) someone wrote:

In a healthy gut, the microbiome is able to produce enough thiamine for the bodies needs :

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Here is a relevant quote :

' Among gut microbes, approximately half encode the enzymes for de novo thiamine synthesis [3]. This synthesis includes production of the precursors thiazole and hydroxymethyl pyrimidine followed by the combination of these precursors into thiamine [4]. '

If half of the gut microbes have the capability to produce thiamine then it suggests that the gut microbiome is not only capable of producing sufficient thiamine, but it likely means that the body has a multitude of uses for thiamine.

The author -- I consider very reliable

Now… Could my ODs be due to my gut is now producing all the B1 my body needs. healthunlocked.com/cure-par...

John_morris71 profile image
John_morris71

Thanks for the detailed information

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toJohn_morris71

You're welcome!

Art

John_morris71 profile image
John_morris71 in reply tochartist

I have ordered HEXBIO ( 3 month supply @ 2 doses/day) from the link that you provided. Cost came to $155 including postage to US from Malaysia. Also ordered Inulin.

Will get my mother started on this once I have them.

Take care.

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toJohn_morris71

John,

Please keep us posted on her results with the combo therapy!

Thank you.

Art

John_morris71 profile image
John_morris71 in reply tochartist

Will do. After/when the 3 month dose is almost done

John_morris71 profile image
John_morris71 in reply tochartist

It is now 11 weeks since I started giving my mom the combo of Inulin and HEXBIO as was indicated in the trial. I find no discernible improvement either in her mood or any other symptom related to PD.

I should also mention that during the past 3 months, she has had more than 3 UTIs ( 4, if my memory serves me right) and the last one ( a few days back) being really serious as the bacteria (Citrobacter Koseri (Divestus) with ESBL production confirmed) was resistant to common antibiotic like Penicillin and its equivalent (Amoxicillin etc.). So she was having antibiotics every time she got infected and each time it was for a full week. I am not sure if those doses of Antibiotics have affected the Inulin + HEXBIO combo therapy.

Hence, I am going to give it for another 3 months and will keep you posted (late November-Early December)

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toJohn_morris71

Thank you for the feedback, John and I look forward to your next update.

Art

John_morris71 profile image
John_morris71 in reply tochartist

My mother has now completed another 3 month daily dose of Inulin and HEXBIO as specified in the trial.

I do not find any improvement - either remarkable or discernible after a total of 6 month of dosing (never missed a day). I have to mention that during the 6 month period, she had repeated UTIs (close to 5 instances) and one time she was on Antibiotics for almost 1 month continuously (Cipro and Nitrofurantoin). It is quite possible that the antibiotics played some role in limiting the effect of Inulin and HEXBIO as her microbes in her gut was affected due to antibiotics (even though I used to give her 300 Billion Probiotic capsule every day during the past 6 months).

I do not plan of continuing the Inulin & HEXBIO dosing.

Take care.

JM

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toJohn_morris71

Thank you for the update, John!

Art

chartist profile image
chartist

This 2024 randomized controlled trial (RCT) determines that Inulin +FOS helps improve cognition in seniors when comparing one twin in the placebo group to one twin in the inulin/FOS group and utilizing a total of 72 participants as twins :

nature.com/articles/s41467-...

The methods of action mentioned in this trial suggest potential viability for people with AD and PD among other health issues.

This is the Inulin/FOS product I am currently testing on myself for another health issue with good results so far :

amazon.com/Jerusalem-Artich...

Art

Gcf51 profile image
Gcf51

According to the study linked in this post - Inulin causes gut inflammation.

healthunlocked.com/cure-par...

JayPwP profile image
JayPwP in reply toGcf51

And there goes the Inulin powder down the drain

😆😆😆😆😆

John_morris71 profile image
John_morris71 in reply toJayPwP

It seems only at high doses of Inulin- something like 30 gms per day.

My guess is 10 gms/day should be well tolerated. Also, combined with probiotic one does not know if Inulin is harmful even at high dose.

April 28, 2022 article

med.stanford.edu/news/all-n...

JayPwP profile image
JayPwP in reply toJohn_morris71

At 30 gram dose, inflammation spiked throughout the body, it doesn't say anything about the gut inflammation Gcf51 mentioned at what dose.

Excerpt:

at the highest dose of inulin, 30 grams, most participants experienced a spike in inflammation throughout the body. And for three participants, the increased inulin seemed to trigger a spike in an enzyme called alanine aminotransferase, a sign of liver damage. These participants were immediately taken off the inulin supplements. Exactly why inulin caused the spike in the liver damage marker is unknown.

For one participant, however, the 30-gram-per-day dose of inulin prompted a surprisingly healthy fiber response, including decreased inflammation.

Gcf51 profile image
Gcf51 in reply toJayPwP

In the title it says Bowel Inflammation. Isn't Bowel the gut?

Googled: bowel vs gut

The bowel is the lower part of the digestive system. The digestive system is also called the gut or gastrointestinal tract (or the GI tract or GIT for short). The bowel goes from the stomach to the back passage (anus).

Gcf51 profile image
Gcf51 in reply toGcf51

Googled: What is best to take with probiotics?

Eat probiotic foods along with prebiotic foods. Prebiotics are the food that bacteria eats and what sustains good bacteria long-term. Oatmeal, bananas, berries, asparagus and beans are all prebiotics.

Gcf51 profile image
Gcf51 in reply toGcf51

Should you take probiotics with food or an empty stomach?

The goal is to get the probiotics through your stomach acid as fast as possible. To do this, it's recommended to take probiotics ideally on an empty stomach (i.e., 2-3 hours after your last meal and 30 minutes before the next meal), so the probiotics bacteria can move through the stomach as fast as possible.

Well probiotic 30 minute before oatmeal...

Despe profile image
Despe

Art,

How does Mannitol affect the efficacy of inulin and HEXBIO probiotic? Method of injestion is add inulin to the probiotic? Could that combination be taken in apple sauce? Thanks for educating us! You always find ways to help this forum.

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toDespe

Hi Despe,

I have no experience with mannitol and don't know how it would interplay with inulin.

In the often discussed PS128 probiotic, they use inulin as the active prebiotic, but at a dose much lower than 5 grams. Imo, increasing the amount of inulin used with PS128 may increase the benefit.

I take my 10 grams of inulin dissolved in a 500 ml bottle of water that I sip throughout the day to continuously try and feed the health promoting bacteria in my gut microbiome with the prebiotic. I generally take my probiotic before my dinner and I drink that down with my inulin water.

Hexbio probiotic showed significant benefit to motor and non motor symptoms without inulin. I just think that inulin may be additive to Hexbio as inulin at 5 grams day with a probiotic, significantly increased SCFAs in the human study as well as significantly increased the anti inflammatory mediator, IL-10.

Art

Despe profile image
Despe in reply tochartist

Thanks, Art! I've got both so I will add inulin to Hexbio.

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toDespe

Hi Despe,

What is the cost of Hexbio per month? I'm trying to see how it would compare in terms of price to PS128.

Art

Despe profile image
Despe in reply tochartist

bcrobes.com/hexbio-mcp-3-mo...

This is what I purchased, Art. Don't know the equivalent to $$ although I could find it. :)

It's $115.14, not bad for 3-month supply.

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toDespe

Thank you, Despe! Significantly less than the PS128 if I'm not mistaken.

Art

Despe profile image
Despe in reply tochartist

Yes, it is less but don't remember exact price. Neurali has a new probiotic with postbiotic now. Haven't purchased this newer version.

Millbrook profile image
Millbrook in reply tochartist

Hi Art,

I just got onto the Hexbio train. One dose cost S$0.92 and I serve it with 2 tsp of inulin and 2 sachets of PS128 and PEPTIVA probiotic for sleep. I started my husband on inulin in February hoping that the inulin would reduce desulfobrio and hence his REMD. Hope it’s not too much of an overkill but magnolia extract seems to help most with his active dreams.

Hexbio is also said to improve Hba1C after 8 weeks of use so will let you know

chartist profile image
chartist

So we know that inulin increases short chain fatty acids (SCFAs) in the gut microbiome and improves cognition in the elderly in just 12 weeks, but inulin also feeds health promoting gut bacteria while decreasing pathobiont bacteria as discussed in the link below. Pathobiont bacteria is an organism that is native to the host's microbiome that under certain environmental or genetic changes can become pathogenic and induce disease.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl....

Here are some relevant quotes from the study link :

' Inulin increases beneficial bacteria and decreases pathobiont bacteria. '

' Inulin increases beneficial bacteria Bifidobacterium spp, Lactobacillus johnsonii and Akkermansia muciniphila. '

' Inulin decreases pathobiont bacteria Dorea sp. 5–2, Clostridium clostridioforme, Clostridioides difficile, Oscillibacter sp. 1–3, and Lachnospiraceae spp. '

At the dosing levels used in many studies, inulin seems like a worthwhile and safe consideration for overall health and PD.

Art

Mob0 profile image
Mob0 in reply tochartist

Hi Art,

How did the trial with the probiotics you were thinking go?

Have you come across m.youtube.com/watch?v=b4tOO... (7:30 and 13:55 - he points out some probiotics that may interfere with ldopa a d recommends inulin, among other prebiotics)

Mob0 profile image
Mob0 in reply tochartist

Hi Art,

How did the trial with the probiotics you were thinking go?

Have you come across m.youtube.com/watch?v=b4tOO... (7:30 and 13:55 - he points out some probiotics that may interfere with ldopa a d recommends inulin, among other prebiotics)

chartist profile image
chartist in reply toMob0

I don't have PD, so I can't comment on that aspect of it. For me the probiotic eliminated bloating, but I am not sure if the inulin was involved in that response, but I think it might have been, because in order for the probiotic to reverse the bloating, I had to take it everyday, but when I added inulin, eventually the bloating stopped altogether and has not returned, even though I stopped the probiotic over a month ago.

Inulin is supposed to feed and increase healthful bacterial while not feeding pathogenic bacteria. I dropped the probiotic because I no longer seemed to need it, but have continued with the inulin to try and maintain a better balanced gut microbiome.

Btw, your YouTube link isn't working.

Art

Mob0 profile image
Mob0

Glad to hear it helped you. I don't seem able to paste a YouTube url for some reason... I try that separately...

Mob0 profile image
Mob0

Glad to hear it helped you. I don't seem able to paste a YouTube url for some reason... I try that separately...

Mob0 profile image
Mob0

How is this?youtu.be/b4tOORfYs-8?si=f5H...

chartist profile image
chartist

That works!

Art

chartist profile image
chartist

This is a copy and paste to a post by forum member, Despe, using the probiotic Hexbio that offered benefit to her husband :

Despe profile imageDespe

27 minutes ago

One TBSP of coconut oil in the breakfast and one packet of HEXBIO (thanks Art) have changed hubby's life!

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Art

chartist profile image
chartist

Another new 12 week study suggesting synbiotics (Probiotics + Prebiotic Inulin) as beneficial for people with PD and constipation :

nature.com/articles/s41598-...

Here is a relevant quote from the human study :

' After treatment, patients performed better in MDS-UPDRS part 1 (p = 0.000), SCOPA-AUT (p = 0.001), TAS-20 (p = 0.014), HAM-D (p = 0.026), DIFt (p = 0.003), PAS-A (p = 0.048). Gastroenterological evaluations showed improvements in PAC-SYM score (p < 0.001), number of complete bowel movement (p < 0.001) and BSFS (p < 0.001). After the synbiotic administration, we observed a significant increase in the abundance of the order Oscillospirales, as well as the Oscillospiraceae family and the species Faecalibacterium prausnitzii within this order in fecal samples. Synbiotic treatment demonstrates potential efficacy in ameliorating non-motor features in PD patients. '

Art

Not what you're looking for?

You may also like...

Fecal Microbiota Transplantation (FMT), Is It A Nearer Term Future Treatment For People Living With Parkinson's Disease?

Fecal Microbiota Transplantation (FMT) is a "relatively new" treatment that is already being used...
chartist profile image

Fecal Microbiota Transplantation (FMT) For PD And Much Much More

While many of us are aware of the potential that FMT has shown for PD, Clostridium difficile (C....
chartist profile image

Mannitol and why some may not respond

I think that some people taking mannitol for PD may think its only benefit for PD is the potential...

Fecal microbiota transplantation (FMT) therapy for Parkinson’s disease - A preliminary study in China

"The objective of this study was to assess the efficacy and safety of FMT on PD. Fifteen PD...
jeffreyn profile image

I Stand Corrected, A New FMT/PD Study Originating In the USA!

It is just a small (12 participants) pilot trial, but it is definitely a step in the right...
chartist profile image