Importance of vitamin B12

[Farooqji]

Interesting - Researchers report that depletion of dietary vitamin B12 (which induces propionate breakdown) & propionate supplementation suppress neurodegeneration & reverse Parkinsons-associated transcriptomic aberrations (in C. elegans)

cell.com/cell-reports/fullt...

[Gallowglass]

I’m nor sure I understand. Does this say that propionate supplementstion is beneficial? And that B12 supplementation is beneficia too?

[Esperanto in reply to Gallowglass]

B12 supplementation can be harmful to your propionate level.

[Esperanto]

It is once again a confirmation that balance is key when it comes to B vitamins and that we should be cautious with high doses. Although doubts have been raised before about high doses of B12 linked to increased mortality risk in cardiovascular diseases. However this association with propionate is remarkable and the research itself is very interesting and promising!

I have been experimenting with propionate myself for about 9 months now, as recent research seems to suggest potential recovery in peripheral neuropathy (PN). Besides pain management, I haven't come across any medication that can achieve that. The double stroke with PD makes it even more interesting and may partly explain the greatly improved situation.

Ethin's mentioned in the post “Simultaneous onset of PD and peripheral PolyNeuropathy (PNP)" about that research where a follow-up study is now being done among PN patients:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/366...

[Gallowglass in reply to Esperanto]

Thanks! What is your source for proprionate?

[Esperanto in reply to Gallowglass]

Propionic Acid (Sodium Propionate) - 200 Capsules (500 mg) - Pure Salt - Made in Germany - Vegan & Laboratory Tested - TRUE NATURE® € 24,99

True Nature propionate

[Gallowglass in reply to Esperanto]

many thanks!

[park_bear in reply to Esperanto]

They had to go to great lengths to eliminate all B12 from these worms systems to get this result. So I would not extend these results to humans where some B12 is a requirement:

"Despite the relatively low level of B 12 in E. coli, depleting B 12in the bacterial diet had a strong effect on suppressing the neurodegenerative phenotypes in animals that pan-neuronally expressed a-syn A53T.[a mutation that causes YOPD]...Eliminating B 12 in the diet also largely restored DA neuron functions (measured as food-induced basal slowing response) in another C. elegans PD model"

In the human gut B12 is synthesized by bacteria in the colon where it cannot be absorbed. So this is significantly different.

B12 deficiency causes a host of neurological problems in humans. No one should take this study as a reason to become deficient in B12.

[Esperanto in reply to park_bear]

It goes without saying that I am not advocating for a B12 deficiency. Rather, I emphasize the importance of achieving a balance among all B-vitamins. To achieve that you usually only need a low-dosed B complex.

healthunlocked.com/cure-par...

[park_bear in reply to Esperanto]

Apologies. My comment was not clear - I did not intend to imply otherwise. Simply needed to emphasize that the study in question should not be relied upon as being applicable to humans.

[Esperanto in reply to park_bear]

You're right PB. Nevertheless, it is interesting to see if there is a correlation with the studies mentioned earlier by Art, which showed a propionate deficiency in PWP. The conclusion "Propionic acid supplementation might ameliorate motor and non-motor symptoms of PD patients, although clinical trials are needed to test this hypothesis" is an additional reason for me to continue the PN experiment with propionate. Just to be sure with a B12 that stays within the normal reference range…

bmcneurol.biomedcentral.com...

[GermanShepherd79 in reply to park_bear]

there was a Japanese study a couple of years ago showing B12 levels below 400 caused demyelination of nerve cells. I haven’t read it for a while but that is what I remember.

[goldengrove in reply to Esperanto]

Can I ask which PD symptoms have improved to yield a greatly improved situation?

[Esperanto in reply to goldengrove]

All PD symptoms have greatly improved! The exact cause of this improvement is uncertain, but most likely a restored balance in my B vitamins has been the driving force. I now take a low-dose bioactive B complex and regularly check my B vitamin levels, particularly B6, which is known to cause a lot of my PD-related issues, in combination with PN, peripheral neuropathy.

The "visible" improvements such as sleep and constipation have been found to contribute to a positive flow, further enhancing the situation. However, in the PD symptom management team, anti-stress measures hold a shared leadership position. Other teammates in the group include vitamin D / sunlight, vitamin C, magnesium, and melatonin. The teammates exercise and the MIND diet are indispensable but could take their roles more seriously. Propionate appears to be an interesting new addition, but it may have more long-term effects.

[goldengrove in reply to Esperanto]

Thank you. But can I ask if tremor is one of your symptoms and whether tremor has been improved?

[Esperanto in reply to goldengrove]

Here, I need to distinguish between my only visible PD symptom, the resting tremor, and the pre-existing essential tremor. The latter has worsened, while the resting tremor has clearly been reduced. The bradykinesia, which I can measure well with the finger tapping test, has significantly decreased. I use this manual test to customize my C/L medication, taking it only when necessary.

[goldengrove in reply to Esperanto]

Thank you

[Ramuu in reply to Esperanto]

If I understood your posting correctly , that high B12 level can increase the mortality risk due to cardiovascular diseases !!. PlEASE Clarify

[Esperanto in reply to Ramuu]

A study conducted by UMCG in the Netherlands shows an association in the general population between higher vitamin B12 levels and premature mortality. It is unclear if there is a direct causal relationship. Further research is needed to determine if, and how, high vitamin B12 levels have a causative relationship with premature mortality.

Individuals with a medical indication for vitamin B12 supplementation were explicitly excluded from the study. They should continue this supplementation therapy as prescribed by their healthcare provider. The warning issued by the researchers regarding high doses of vitamin B12 is only intended for individuals taking vitamin B12 supplements without a demonstrated physical deficiency. Due to the unknown health risks of excessive vitamin B12 intake, they caution against the fact that many supplements contain multiples of the recommended daily amount of 2.8 micrograms per day.

jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...

[Ramuu in reply to Esperanto]

I did not understand the linked article .Does it mean higher levels of B12 should be avoided ??

[Esperanto in reply to Ramuu]

If a test does not indicate that you actually have a B12 deficiency, they advise against high B12 supplementation, except when prescribed therapeutically by a doctor.

[Ramuu in reply to Esperanto]

The article in the link states, plasma concentration in B12 is resposible for Mortality in Adults. What is plasma Concentration ??

[Esperanto in reply to Ramuu]

In the context of B12 measurement, plasma concentration specifically refers to the concentration of B12 in the liquid portion of the blood, plasma, where various forms of B12, including the biologically active form, are found.

Measuring B12 concentration in plasma is a common method used to assess a person's B12 status

[Specterishot]

OK. I am confused. HWP takes a B complex with 400mcg of methylcobalamin b12 and a sublingual of that same form at 5,000mcg daily. I was under the impression that most PWP are deficient, and that what u don't use your body excretes. Are we doing more harm than good here?

[38yroldmale]

This helped me immensely. I have pernicious anemia and Parkinson’s. I quickly lose B12 but if I supplement too much, I feel much worse. I just realized that recently experimenting. Just good to be careful, I found out there can be too much of a good thing.

[Rufous2]

Hmm, even a cursory reading of this study raises a lot of questions, with the primary one being; does B12 in the gut suppress propionate levels in humans. And if it does, would B12 shots bypass this mechanism or can gut bacteria access B12 from the systemic circulation? I see a rabbit hole looming.... 🙄