mucuna or sinemet?

[michelagvolpe]

why should it be different to take levodopa from mucuna or take it from sinemet? Isn't it the same chemical formula?

L-DOPA/Formula :

C9H11NO4

[Hikoi]

There are multiple reasons that I have read. Pure levadopa doesnt pass through the blood brain barrier. That is why carbidopa was added to it, as a transporter as I understand it.

[michelagvolpe in reply to Hikoi]

Yes! But I saw people prefer mucuna instead of Sinemet that is cheaper, because they think that mucuna is better because natural and not chemical. But the chemical formula of Dopa is the same.

[Hikoi in reply to michelagvolpe]

many people think ‘natural’ is better. Personally I know people it hasnt worked for. I think because they havent taken carbidopa as well. So if you take some sinimet as well as mucuna I think it might work OK. The other problem is you dont know exactly what you are getting and what strrength it is. But people believe it is better than a consistent pill so they can believe that if they want.

There are other properties in mucuna which may have a positive effect. Not been proven yet.

[HekateMoon in reply to michelagvolpe]

Natural mucuna, that is, not the extract but the full plant as used in India has numerous plant compounds that are beneficial. Green tea helps it to cross the Blood brain barrier. You can also have either carbidopa on its own or a smal dose of sinemet/ madopar to help. Problem is to find the right dose as most neuros aren't trained with mucuna and most commercial mucuna doesnt specify the amount of levodopa per cap...Some of the extract brands does specify this but you eliminate the benefits of other chemicals on the herb. I had to stop taking it because i couldnt regulate fluctuations and it was an extract...still like the idea. Dyskinesias people report also, aren't as serious with mucuna...

[WinnieThePoo in reply to Hikoi]

Not quite. Dopamine doesn't cross the blood brain barrier. So levadopa decarboxylated to dopamine outside the brain can't get into the brain. WIthout a DDCI (dopamine decarboxylase inhibitor) like Carbidopa, quite a lot of levadopa is converted to dopamine outside the brain, where it does nothing useful, and potentially creates side effects

Carbidopa also doesn't cross the BBB , so it prevents levadopa being converted to dopamine outside the brain, and leaves levadopa unconverted for longer so it has more time to cross into the brain, where it is converted to dopamine.

[Hikoi in reply to WinnieThePoo]

Thanks Winnie. I knew I was on a slipery slope but wasn’t in the mood to look it up. (Shows that all my knowledge is self taught since getting PD). I do appreciate your posts btw.

[DreamRain in reply to WinnieThePoo]

Hello. The problem with benserazide as a decarboxylase inhibitor (in Prolopa for example) is that it lowers blood pressure and if you are already taking blood pressure lowering medication or other drugs that also cause lowering of blood pressure (e.g. for prostrate issues) the combined effect can lead to frequent falls. Replacing part of the L-Dopa + decarboxylase inhibitor with Mucuna (also L-Dopa but without the decarboxylase inhibitor) was very helpful to my partner and resulted in no further falls. One of the problems with Mucuna is knowing the exact amount of L-Dopa being supplied and the consistency of that between batches. I’m not sure how carefully controlled that is.

[PDTom]

Here is a doctor from Spain who has studied the subject in detail. mucunaparkinson.com/

[Boscoejean]

Studies which gave single doses of mucuna pruriens to people with PD showed that it may have a faster onset of action and last longer than carbidopa/levodopa without increasing dyskinesias. However, when given continually, mucuna pruriens was shown to cause more side effects than carbidopa/levodopa in some people.

apdaparkinson.org/article/m....

[Gamz]

Hello I am new at this PD thing only diagnosed 1 month ago. Next appointment not till 2 more months. Doctor suggested I research Sinemet and might prescribe at next appointment. So far not excited about the possible side effects. Meanwhile I am taking without dr knowledge is mucuna pruriens . So far it has been a blessing for me. Helped relieve stiffness and rigidity, tremors, help sleep issues somewhat. Cleared up constipation and lowered my blood pressure to the point I stopped my bp meds. I use a powder form and mix with 8 oz of hot water. Tastes fine only issue is gas but that was easily solved with taking a beano supplement before dose. All this in 2-3 weeks. As of now I don’t even want to try Sinemet until this stops working for me. I think it’s even helping my depression have not had an episode in 10 days. Other than my brief experience I know nothing about how any of this works. But promising for me feeling the best I have in the past 7 months. I am actually getting up and out of bed in the morning.

[Esperanto in reply to Gamz]

Thank you for sharing your first experiences. Maybe you can find a little more guidance with the expertise of neurologist Rafael Gonzales Maldonado. For me his book “Ecological therapy for Parkinson's disease 2023. Medication, late and little” was at least an eye-opener and inspiring. Especially by showing the coherence, not only with regard to the medication but also with your lifestyle.

amazon.com/Rafael-Maldonado...

Good luck finding your way! 🍀

[Gamz in reply to Esperanto]

Thanks Esperanto I will check that book out.

[michelagvolpe in reply to Gamz]

before taking levodopa, if you are starting out, it is better to try dopamine agonists

[Hikoi in reply to michelagvolpe]

That is now debateable. Azilect would probably be a better choice.

[PDFree]

I too recommend the same book Esperanto listed. I personally have taken a lot of mucuna for a long time. I don’t completely understand how it doesn’t cross the BBB because for me it works the same as the sinemet equivalent pills I take but with faster efficacy and no side effects. I take an organic powdered product that I purchase from a high integrity company that I trust. I take a large amount in divided doses through out the day, mixed in a little water. For years their mucuna has been consistent.

[KERRINGTON in reply to PDFree]

How much do you take in a day ? I take a combination of Barlowe brown, and N ow Dopa every 2 1/2 to 3 hrs. Unfortunately I now finding I need some during the night as I wake up every 3+ hrs with bad tremors. Mucuna worked well till I had to add night time doses. I'm trying to fix this as it is also messed up my bp !!

[PDFree in reply to KERRINGTON]

I now take a lot, but started out with a lot less, 5-7 doses of 1 tbsp per dose, mixed in a little water. You could be more creative than that, and can even add it to recipes. Cooking does not damage it or reduce efficacy. I feel I might not be able to know if my dosing is accurate putting it in a recipe unless I ate all of the recipe. I use Biopure’s mucuna powder.

I too wake up at night now every 3-4 hours as the mucuna or sinemet has worn off. My symptoms also return when that happens. I take the pills in the night, easier than getting up to mix mucuna. Feel free to ask any other questions you have.

[WinnieThePoo]

The levadopa in macuna crosses the blood brain barrier exactly the same as the levadopa in sinemet. The difference is that quite a lot of the levadopa in macuna is converted into dopamine before it crosses the blood brain barrier. And the dopamine outside your brain can't cross the bbbSinemet includes carbidopa. Carbidopa can't cross the bbb. It stays outside the brain, where it stops levadopa being converted to dopamine. So with sinemet, more of the levadopa makes it to the brain and less of it is turned into dopamine outside the brain, where it is wasted and toxic (to a degree)

Turning levadopa into dopamine is by decarboxylation. Carbidopa inhibits that decarboxylation (only outside the brain cos it can't cross the bbb). So it is known as a DDCI. A dopamine decarboxylation inhibitor. Green tea is also a DDCI but not as effective as carbidopa, even in the best varieties and is near useless in most varieties.

In the early stages, you don't need much dopamine so just levadopa (macuna) works fine, especially if like me, you don't notice too many side effects. As the PD progresses you need more and the effects of waste dopamine outside the brain become more evident.

The effect most people notice from too much ldopa being converted into dopamine outside the brain is nausea. That's why sinemet was called sinemet. The ddci stops you feeling nausea and vomiting. Sin (without) emet (vomiting) in Latin. But dopamine can also affect heart rate and glaucoma among other things. And these are often not noticed.

Whilst it is likely that the other stuff in whole macuna has some beneficial effect, it is not shown to be substantial. The difference between sinemet and macuna is principally the difference between dosages using a ddci to reduce the amount of ldopa used

[Esperanto in reply to WinnieThePoo]

You mentioned “Green tea is also a DDCI but not as effective as carbidopa, even in the best varieties and is near useless in most varieties.” Do you have more (research) data about this? As a supplement DDCI, what would be the best teas to apply? Preferably a nice strong black tea of course 😋

[WinnieThePoo in reply to Esperanto]

I now so regret not having organised a reference and filing system for my PD research. There were a few papers.Including

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/113...

analyticalsciencejournals.o...

[Esperanto in reply to WinnieThePoo]

That's a pity, but thanks. Very recognisable, for me it seems PD related. Despite all the work experience, I can no longer put a system in my administration. Or better try to implement that. This was probably one of the first PD symptoms about 3 years before diagnosis. I then got a street sign with “Chaos square” in front of my desk as a playful gift....

[Esperanto]

The attached graph shows that the effectiveness and duration of levodopa with carbidopa roughly doubled. Perhaps it gives an extra guidance on your considerations. To prevent the intake of too large amounts of mucuna and the resulting problems, you can also think of a combination with Sinemet.

Effectiveness levodopa with and without carbidopa

[chartist]

Yes, levodopa is levodopa, but levodopa works significantly better with carbidopa. A member on this forum was able to convince their doctor to write a script for carbidopa alone based on a study they showed to their doctor. They reported that the addition of carbidopa to their mucuna pruriens(MP) significantly improved their response to MP.

One advantage of MP is that it contains many other components that act as antioxidants and this is important because levodopa increases oxidative stress and PD is already known to have elevated oxidative stress levels which are thought to feed disease progression. So reducing oxidative stress levels is useful for overall health and for PD. The following link discusses how levodopa increases oxidative stress :

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/268....

Here is a relevant quote :

' Exposure to free radicals influences synthesis, degradation and function of proteins, such as repulsive guidance molecule A. Decay of this protein is essential for neuronal maintenance and recovery. Levodopa elevates oxidative stress. Therefore levodopa may impact repulsive guidance molecule A metabolism. '

This study discussed elevated oxidative stress seen in people with PD :

mdpi.com/2076-3921/9/7/597

A relevant quote :

' Studies have suggested the potential involvement of dopamine, iron, calcium, mitochondria and neuroinflammation in contributing to overwhelmed oxidative stress and neurodegeneration in PD. Function studies on PD-causative mutations of SNCA, PRKN, PINK1, DJ-1, LRRK2, FBXO7 and ATP13A2 further indicate the role of oxidative stress in the pathogenesis of PD. '

MP is also used for many other health benefits besides relief of PD symptoms as discussed in this very informative article based on previous studies and one of those benefits is as an antioxidant :

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Here is a relevant quote :

' Also, this legume is considered as a future restorative herb because of its anticholesterolemic, anti-Parkinson, antioxidant, antidiabetic, sexual enhancing, anti-inflammatory, antimicrobial, and antivenom activities. It also exhibits anticancer activities, but very few studies have been done. The seeds of Mucuna pruriens also contain a vast range of phytochemical constituents such as alkaloids, glycosides, saponins, reducing sugars, and tannins, which provide an avenue to explore it for wider applications. This review sheds light on the possible mechanism of action of Mucuna pruriens on some diseases (hypoglycemia, Parkinson’s disease, microbial diseases and tumor). and also fills the gap in the studies of Mucuna pruriens. and Further more in vitro and in vivo studies should be done to explore the potential of these seeds against many diseases, its application as a food source, its antinutrient, and harmful properties as well as its nutraceutical perspective.'

So this sheds a little more light on differences between a drug like Sinemet and MP. MP can also be combined with something like Sinemet if your doctor is unwilling to prescribe Carbidopa separately. The downside is your doctor is not likely to know much if anything about MP, so you will have to figure out dosing on your own which isn't easy. Along that line of thinking, this forum member was able to do just that as described in the following thread :

healthunlocked.com/cure-par...

So as you can see, it is doable, but it isn't as easy as just taking Sinemet, but the MP seems more likely to offer other potential health benefits through its antioxidative properties and other methods of action, which is important to try and offset the oxidative stress caused by levodopa and PD.

Art

[Esperanto in reply to chartist]

Unlike my neurologist, my GP does try to look for alternatives. Due to the relatively low carbidopa percentage in the Sinemet IR (1:10) in France, he tried to find separate carbidopa, but to his surprise that was also not available here. A DDCI supplement with green tea as Art mentioned could perhaps slightly increase the effectiveness of the Sinemet, but maybe there are other options?

[kevowpd]

For all of the academic interest in mucuna, it is used conistently by a tiny percentage of PWPs because it is generally unreliable and as levodopa needs increase you need to take an uncomfortable amount of it. There's also the matter of time and energy devoted to preparation, since if you are going to take advantage of all of these (supposedly) beneficial additional compounds in it, you really need to be carefully preparing the seeds yourself and not buying commercial products where those compounds have potentially been removed (intentionally or otherwise). Roberto Cilia has a journal article or two in which he describes a an effective preparation method and it doesn't strike me as something a PWP (or their tired partner) would want to be doing regularly.

[Gioc in reply to kevowpd]

Roberto Cilia is a legend. The context in which he developed this technology to bring ldopa to patients in Ghana who cannot afford the overpriced standard medicines. He did research there in Ghana on advanced stage patients who had never been treated with levadopa where he showed that the dyskinesias are related to the stage of the disease and not to the use of levodopa for years. These studies have been financed with public money from the Lombardy region of Italy and anyone else, in the sole interest of the patients.

Quoted here after about 19:15 minutes.

youtu.be/nbg0cA29wMk(Not working as expected?)