Torn Tendons, Torn Ligaments And Some Possible Help

[chartist]

Recently a long time friend was relating a story of recent visits to his doctors. He had thought that he had a shoulder issue which caused pain that radiated into his arm and severely limited his use of that arm. The pain was very significant and occasionally incapacitating. He asked his primary doctor about it and after a brief inspection referred my friend to a surgeon who sent him for an MRI with contrast dye. At his next appointment with the surgeon, he was told that the problem was torn tendons and ligaments and the only viable solution was to have them surgically repaired.

The surgeon went on to tell my friend that although the surgery could potentially relieve the pain as well as increase his range of motion, there was also the chance that he could be worse after the surgery! As it was, my friend could only raise his arm to just below shoulder height, but that movement also caused a very significant increase in pain. The surgeon told him it was not likely that he would get back to 100% normal. He also mentioned that physical therapy would not help in his particular case, again reiterating that surgery was his best and only practical option.

When my friend got done relating his experience to me, I asked him if he would be interested in trying a less invasive approach first, as it was not likely to hurt him and could possibly help him and if it didn't help, he could always go ahead and schedule the surgery. After a little more discussion, he said that he would be interested in trying this different approach since it was just a very common supplement and not too expensive as his insurance was not going to cover a supplement. He also reminded me that the surgeon had told him that the surgery could potentially leave him in a worse condition than he was in now.

Having decided to go ahead, I ordered a specific collagen supplement for him to start on as soon as it arrived. I know that many people are aware of the many different collagen supplements out there and that they are mainly noted for improving hair, skin and nail quality and sometimes showing the ability to relieve joint pain, but a little research into collagen suggests that the right type or blend might be capable of "many other benefits"! I told my friend that even if this turns out to be of no benefit for his tendons and ligaments, he was likely to have very radiant hair, vibrant more elastic & youthful skin and strong nails 😚 and we both laughed at that! I let him know that collagen has a very good safety profile which seems to make plenty of sense since collagen is 25 to 35% of the whole body protein content in humans. Type one collagen is the highest content in humans and this supplement contains type 1,2,3,5 and 10. Type 1 is found throughout the human body and makes up more than 90% of organic bone mass. Here are some studies that discuss the benefits of collagen supplementation from Achilles tendinitis issues to skin elasticity to bone density to possible muscle mass increase to improvement in hair quality and more!

The following abstract discusses the use of collagen for wound healing and skin aging.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/306...

This next abstract discusses a collagen supplement with other active components which together improved skin aging and joint health.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/301...

This study describes how the use of collagen in combination with resistance training can increase muscle mass in men.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

This next abstract shows that collagen can increase nail growth while reducing nail brittleness.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/287...

Oral Supplementation of Specific Collagen Peptides Combined with Calf-Strengthening Exercises Enhances Function and Reduces Pain in Achilles Tendinopathy Patients

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

The following study shows Improvement of activity-related knee joint discomfort following supplementation of specific collagen peptides.

nrcresearchpress.com/doi/10...

The following study shows that dietary supplementation with specific collagen peptides has a body mass index-dependent beneficial effect on cellulite morphology

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

The following study suggests that oral collagen may improve ankle instability

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

The following study suggests that collagen bone mineral density and bone markers in postmenopausal women improve with collagen intake

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

The following abstract discusses how oral collagen supplementation can enhance facial skin moisture and elasticity and reduce facial ageing signs

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/268...

This last study describes how oral collagen supplementation in conjunction with resistance exercise affects body composition

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

As you can see from just these few studies, collagen has many health benefits that are much more than just skin deep!

The following link gives a short list of potential collagen benefits which you may not be aware of such as improving bone health and near the bottom of the lists are a list of potential side effects such as allergic reaction to fish (Hydrolyzed Fish Collagen Peptides) which the product my friend used contains so obviously this particular product will not be for everyone, but there are other collagen supplements that don't contain a fish form of collagen.

healthline.com/nutrition/co...

When the supplement arrived, I gave it to him and he started on it right away. I mentioned that if this supplement could help, he could be looking at a few months before he might see any benefit if at all. He said he didn't mind because he had had this condition for years and what would a few more months hurt? After about a week or two, I saw him again and he mentioned that he didn't notice anything different and I reminded him that he would be looking at months before he could possibly see any benefit if at all. Shortly after that visit, he went on a three week vacation and I didn't see him during that time, but he mentioned to me in a phone conversation that he was still taking his supplement faithfully once a day, everyday. When he returned from his vacation, we got together and when he greeted me, he said, look at this and he raised his arm up straight over his head and he had a great big smile on his face!. It took a moment, but I remembered he was taking the supplement for that arm and I gave him a big smile back and immediately asked for details. He said that shortly after our conversation while he was on vacation, he noticed significantly less pain in his arm and with that reduction in pain came an increased range of motion! He told me that while he was on vacation, he felt there were days when he almost felt that he could tell a difference from one day to the next. He also told me that when we had that conversation, he thought that there might have already been a little improvement, but he didn't mention it because he wasn't positive and he also remembered that I told him not to expect anything for a few months, so he didn't mention it to me at that time. I asked him to try and give me an idea of how much improvement he thought had occurred. He thought for a moment and said he felt that at least a 75% improvement had occurred over the period of about a month! I didn't say it to him, but I was shocked! He said that although he could raise his arm straight up over his head, there was still some pain at the top of the motion and he told me that he could not curve his arm when straight up over his head in a direction toward his opposing shoulder as that would push the pain level up a notch, but other than that he said it was very functional again!

He told me he was going to continue taking the collagen supplement indefinitely to see just how much he could improve. I asked him if he could tell any difference in his hair, skin and nails and he told me that his hair seemed thicker and that his nails have always been hard and he hadn't really checked his skin, but he would when he got a chance and let me know about it.

I have no idea if this would be the same for others, but I thought I would mention it as an anecdotal report of interest. I don't like to recommend specific products on this forum because I don't want to appear to be hyping anybody's product, but in this case I am going to make an exception because when I was reviewing collagen products, it became apparent to me that not all collagen products are created equal. I read through a ton of Amazon reviews, which I know is about as unscientific as it gets, but with supplements, this is often our only means of getting an idea of what a specific supplement is anecdotally noted for. I ended up choosing a collagen product that had the highest percent (90%) 5 star rating that I could find with over four thousand reviews. I have since found another product that has a 92% five star rating, but it has well under a thousand reviews, so for now, the product I ordered is :

dremilnutrition.com/product...

So far, I have only found it on Amazon and it is around $25 per month which is not the cheapest nor the most expensive, but it is the one that worked for my friend and it is the one I chose based on the reviews I read. You will find that reading through the reviews that some collagen products seem to get very poor reviews, so I do not think they are all created equal or have exactly the same effects. The ingredients vary also and none seem to tell you how much of each collagen form is in it. The one I chose has five different forms of collagen in it as well as bioperine, a proven absorption enhancer. One good thing about this particular product is that they are capsules and only require that you take three all at one time each day. Some of the other supplements I looked at were big tablets which were reported by some reviewers to be hard to swallow. Another advantage is that this supplement required 3 capsules per day while some required 6 capsules or tablets per day which could be daunting for some, considering how many pills they may already be taking! On that note, as always, please seek the advice and guidance of your doctor or healthcare professional to make sure that this collagen supplement is safe for you and compatible with everything you are taking.

I know this is not directly related to PD, but it is a common enough health issue that it may apply to some of our forum members and so I decided to write about it and even though you may not have this problem now, you never know if it may come up at some point or you may have a friend or relative who it may apply to. Just one unexpected fall could possibly make this post relevant. Another consideration is that some forum members may be suffering from this issue, but because this is a PD forum, they may choose not to bring it up because it is not discussed here. Some members have reported shoulder and arm pain on a regular basis, but the cause is often unknown, so collagen may apply in some of these situations. If you find at some point in the future you would like to find and review this post, simply click on my icon and select this post from a short list of posts that I have written more recently.

Art

[MarionP]

Now what specifically is the brand seller and all those other very indidual specifics of what exactly he did take?

[chartist in reply to MarionP]

That information is in the post and there is a link to the exact product he used and an explanation of why I chose it.

Art

[bepo]

Yup! Thanks for the articles, Art, I have two degenerated knees, both with torn menicus. I also have a degenerated shoulder with torn rotator cuff. I was taking Bio-cell collagen II for years, along with Glucosimine Chondroitin Sulfate. For some reason I stopped taking them. My joints weren't nearly as bad as they are not. (Duh! Why did I stop?) In the last month, I started bio cell collagen with bio-perrine. I have also had prolozone injections into the joint areas, which has helped a lot. I am now doing stretching /strengthening exercises slowly.

I didn't see anything about the patented bio-cell collagen II in the articles. You referred to bio-cell collagen 1. Can you explain further? Thanks.

Betsy

[chartist in reply to bepo]

bepo,

I merely selected the product because it had over 4,000 reviews and a 5 star rating of 90% which is a very, very good rating that seemed to be well ahead of many of the over a hundred collagen products that Amazon sells. Clearly collagen supplements "are not created equal" judging by the poor reviews that many products got.

I did not find studies that clearly showed that collagen would definitely work for this purpose, but rather studies that suggested that it might be helpful and that is why I told my friend that it may or may not work to repair his tendons and ligaments. Given what the surgeon had told my friend about the surgery, it seemed to be worth the effort.

Art

[bepo in reply to chartist]

Absolutely worth it! I was told I need two knee replacements and a shoulder replacement. I am trying everything else, and that's the last resort. We feel the same way with PD. Do what causes the least amount of harm, then try more invasive procedures as a last resort.

[Despe]

Another excellent, informative post, Art! I have bought bone broth and have it occasionally, but I will make sure that we both take it faithfully. I lose a lot of hair which could be from STRESS or thyroid problems which I have never checked.

[chartist in reply to Despe]

Thank you, Despe!

In reading about bone broth, one downside that I saw mentioned is the variability of it compared to some supplements which are fairly uniform and consistent in delivery of specific collagen types.

Biotin is often helpful in significantly reducing hair fall as is horsetail, but probably a bit more so than biotin, likely due to its silica content.

Art

[Despe in reply to chartist]

Art, I can't take any caps due to GERD. Although probiotics fixed my problem, I still avoid anything in caps or tablets. All the vitamins/supplements I am taking are in the liquid form. I have been using Biotin shampoo but haven't seen good results.

Any liquid collagen you can recommend? Thank you!

[chartist in reply to Despe]

If you can take powder to make your own collagen drink, this one has over 16,000 reviews with 79% five star ratings:

amazon.com/Collagen-Peptide...

For liquid, this one has an 80% 5 star rating, but only 250 reviews,:

amazon.com/Premium-Biotin-C...

Art

[Despe in reply to chartist]

Art, thanks for searching and recommending this particular supplement. I will sure order it.

[sudoku123 in reply to Despe]

Despe,

It is a good product for hair,skin......I used before and was really happy. Art picked the great product.

amazon.com/Collagen-Peptide...(powder).

[Despe in reply to sudoku123]

Hi Sudoku! How are you? Thanks for recommending it. Can't take any caps or tablets so this is it for me.

[LindaP50 in reply to Despe]

thyroid is a matter of blood tests - simple. find out.

[Despe in reply to LindaP50]

Thanks, Linda! Yes, that I will do. I need to take care of myself, too. . .

[MBAnderson]

Art,

I cast my vote that we/you dispense with any democratic process as to whether or not you get the post off topic.

You can post about your mother-in-law, as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for another great post.

Marc

[chartist in reply to MBAnderson]

Thank you , Marc!

Art

[sharoncrayn in reply to chartist]

Art:

Somewhat off topic, but I have some serious doubts about some of the "paid" reviews for Dr. Emil's products such as the collagen you suggested. These reviewers are compensated for their reviews with free products although this practice on Amazon is not unique to his brand. It is very prevalent, but hardly objective anecdotal evidence.

As a one time elite middle distance runner, I have my doubts about collagen repairing any serious running injuries like an achilles tendon tear. I am not talking about the much more common tendinopathy which positively reacts to specific physical exercises and collagen peptides.

By the way, some of your citations were promoted by supplement companies. Specifically, the recent 2019 study in Nutrients. I am not a big fan of those type of studies although they do serve a purpose.

Good luck on your PD.

Sharon

[chartist in reply to sharoncrayn]

sharon,

I don't need to tell you that we are in a tough situation when it comes to supplements and their practical application. Testing is often minimal or nonexistent and usually insufficient to draw reasonable conclusions and that leaves us very limited options in this respect.

I often find that my main criteria for making a supplement decision is down to the known safety profile of the supplement and this would be one of those cases. I recommended it to my friend to try because it seemed like a possibly better option than the surgery which the surgeon had told him might leave him in a worse state in terms of use of his arm.

I agree, the reviews can be tainted, but for me, if the safety profile is good, then I am more willing to try a specific supplement or at least consider it. In this one anecdotal case, the outcome was good.

Art

[sharoncrayn in reply to chartist]

Art:

My issue with your thread has never been with the safety profile of collagen peptides. Frankly, it isn't the issue. Don't know why you brought it up with me.

If this is our primary criteria for making supplement recommendations, your choice.

Sharon

[sharoncrayn in reply to chartist]

Art:

You are correct when it comes to the almost non-existent clinical trial testing of supplements for PD, (unless sponsored by a supplement company like Niagen), but not for cancer.

Plenty of cancer related supplement studies out there although many are very difficult to find (probably impossible) because they aren't published in a peer reviewed journal or actually reported upon. Believe it or not, I would guess mannitol (as an example) over the years has had 50 plus studies most of which are "vapor".

Just as an example of what is current in "supplement" cancer trials, mannitol (a popular supplement on this forum which I think you discussed) has three (3) ongoing "combination" cancer clinical trials in Phase II. SFN (sulforaphane via broccoli) has had 2 complete clinical trials for prostate cancer (which showed efficacy in reducing PSA) and one ongoing in pancreatic and one more in breast.

Big time money is NOT in PD research on supplements and their benefits.

Sharon

[chartist in reply to sharoncrayn]

Sharon,

""Vapor"", that one word was spot on!

Art

[sharoncrayn in reply to chartist]

I forgot. The pancreatic CT has been completed with mixed results from what I can tell. Early results were good all things considered, but the drop out rate essentially made the trial results useless (lacked statistical significance). The breast cancer studies with SFN go back to at least 2010 with recent studies looking at it as a "chemo protective" agent. Very interesting turn of events in the chemo world.

Sharon

[park_bear]

Thanks for posting this useful information, Art!

[chartist in reply to park_bear]

park_bear, thank you!

I hope it will end up being useful for others!

Art

[Hikoi]

Shoulder pain is also an often mis diagnosed and mistreated symptom of Parkinsons

journals.lww.com/jclinrheum...

[chartist in reply to Hikoi]

Hikoi,

Yes, I have heard that frequently on this forum and I often wonder if it is a preexisting condition that the PD exacerbates or if PD is the direct cause or is it the medications? I imagine it varies considerably from patient to patient. I wonder what MRI's generally show in PD shoulders? There are multiple issues that can cause shoulder pain such as a torn rotator cuff, bursitis or frozen shoulder. Not every PWP has shoulder pain as an on going issue.

Perhaps mag oil (MO) might help discern a cause as MO has shown the ability to help relieve pain from frozen shoulder and a torn rotator cuff, but I am doubtful that it would be helpful if the pain is medication related, although, honestly, I don't know that for sure.Thank you for the article link!

Art

[Hikoi in reply to chartist]

It is not caused by medication because as, in the reference given it is prodromal, prediagnosis. so the person is not taking any PD medication. Often levadopa alleviates the symptom. Personally I had shoulder pain which began 10 years before diagnosis. I dont have it now I am on drug treatment.

[glenandgerry in reply to Hikoi]

This is so interesting. My husband (PWP) was told he needed shoulder surgery (as the bone was rubbing on the tendon) about 12 years prior to his PD diagnosis ie around age 39. He never did have the surgery though as he started wearing a copper bangle which alleviated all his pain at that time.

[Hikoi in reply to glenandgerry]

My neuro intimated there is alot of unnecessary surgery, hips, knees, shoulders, where the problem is largely caused by PD. I notice this particularly among US posters. They often write they had surgery prediagnosis without resolution of the problem.

[Juliegrace]

Your thoughtful research and measured advice is always appreciated (by me and I know without reading the other comments by many others).

[Hidden]

You certainly like your collagen product but, as you say, this has nothing to do with PD. Are you intending to work your way through non-PD health issues with excessively long posts?

[chartist in reply to Hidden]

Osidge

Well, that was an excessively long post, but mainly because I was relating my friends story and because I was trying to be as thorough as possible! I read so many posts where the person just says I took collagen and I was 75% improved and that is all they say. Then people have to write back and keep asking questions about where to buy, how much does it cost, how long did you take it, are there any studies, how much did you take, are you still taking it, did you notice any other benefits, did you have any side effects, how long does it take to see benefit and many other related questions. With me taking the time in the original post to include this information, the reader is alleviated of having to write back to ask questions, sometimes multiple times!

Another point that I have noticed is that sometimes the original poster doesn't reply which can be somewhat frustrating! I read a lot of posts on this forum, but I do not see every post so if I happen to miss a post, that question will likely go unanswered unless one of the other members answers the question and that can be hit and miss!

I think that often times the reader can look at the title of the post and decide whether it is something they are interested in reading or not, so they need not waste their time reading a post that does not interest them.

If a reader is truly interested in the title because it concerns a currently relevant point in their life or a friend or family member's life, I think they will appreciate the inclusion of as much information as possible. The way I have written it, someone can copy and paste or link to it so that a forum member can send it to a friend or family member and be confident that all questions will likely be answered by the post itself with no further questions being required.

Thank you for the input, Osidge!

Art

[Hidden in reply to chartist]

Was that a punishment, Art? A similarly verbose post that still has nothing to do with PD.

[chartist in reply to Hidden]

' Was that a punishment, Art? A similarly verbose post that still has nothing to do with PD '

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Osidge,

I clearly explained about the length of the post and my posts tend to run long so that I can be as comprehensive as possible in my explanations. People are free to read what they want on this forum. I mentioned that one fall could potentially make this post relevant for any member at any time as falls are common in PD, so there is relevance to this forum. There are 16 likes and 45 replies to this post at this time and your's is the only complaint. My posts are easy to identify by the blue Vitamin B-1 capsule icon. Perhaps you can just skip over my posts in the future so you won't have to be inconvenienced.

Art

[Kia17 in reply to Hidden]

Any evidence that collagen products has nothing to do with PD? Plus the HU hasnot placed any limitations interms of number of characters for each post.

[Hidden in reply to Kia17]

This forum is here to support those with PD. Whilst some may have torn ligaments, they can ask for help if they do. You have totally missed the point I was making.

[Kia17 in reply to Hidden]

Torn ligaments , tendons is a common problem in PD due to shortening of the muscles as a result of micro contraction of muscles, therefore collagen is completely relevant to PD. I myself had the rotator cuff issue and a surgery was recommended but I refused and took another route.

[Hidden in reply to Kia17]

My experience does not tie PD with torn ligaments. More common musculoskeletal connections are:

Frozen shoulder

Low back pain

Arthritis

Osteoporosis

[Kia17 in reply to Hidden]

Thank you for sharing your experience

[Hidden in reply to Kia17]

You are welcome.

[Despe in reply to Hidden]

Try Art's recommendation: MAGNESIUM OIL!!!

[Hidden in reply to Despe]

For what malady?

[Despe in reply to Hidden]

For your

Frozen shoulder

Low back pain

Arthritis

[Hidden in reply to Despe]

Magic.

[Sapeye2020 in reply to Hidden]

Well you left off the presence of Ice on a slanted driveway ( We live in an area that gets 2 to 6 feet of snow annually) that in the spring melts and becomes what we call black ice, looks like it is dry and hellishly dangerous! Thanks to Covid-19 I decided not to go to the hospital as I had open heart work in 2014, and my Nurse-Educator wife did not want me near there at the time (Still no infections within 200 miles tho an infected transient stopped to visit an AGED relative last week).

Now I am back on Glucosamine, Chondriton & MSM as my ice damaged knee left Knee felt like when I blew out both Minisca in one knee a few years back

The G,C & MSM helped after the Ortho told me he had cleaned up a lot of arthritis damage and flotsam , best I could expect and I will need a total knee replacement in ~ 2 yrs, by my 70 th B.day, well I just passed 71 and all the stress is now on the painful ICE damaged Left Knee.

Does that qualify me as a Parkie that could benefit from the treatise at the beginning? I think so and thank Chartist for his story.

[chartist in reply to Sapeye2020]

Sapeye2020,

I'm sorry for your fall! The mag oil (MO) can make a great adjunctive topical aid to the GC&M. It's about 10 bucks for an 8 ounce spray bottle that will last a very long time and can be used for many other issues such as rapid relief of muscle cramps, arthritis pain in joints, stiff muscles especially in the neck and shoulder area, it may also help to deal with calcifications in joints. My neighbor who went to the gym every morning at 5:00 am told me that he had a torn rotator cuff in each shoulder that the doctor said physical therapy would not work for and that he needed surgery to repair both shoulders, but he couldn't have the surgery because of his heart issues. So my neighbor's days at the gym were over for him other than to just go and chat with friends. I made him a small 2 ounce bottle of MO to carry in his pocket to try for his shoulders and when I saw him again, I asked how his shoulders were doing and he lifted both arms in the air and twirled them around and he pulled the bottle out of his pocket and said, I call this my "magic sauce" and asked me to make him more! It's odorless too.

Here is a link to a $10 bottle of MO on Amazon. Read some of the reviews to see what else people use it for:

amazon.com/Magnesium-Oil-Sp...

Here is a link to a post I wrote about it a couple of years ago :

healthunlocked.com/parkinso...

Good luck!

Art

[LindaP50]

Art, thank you for taking the time to write up this very informative post. I have some friends who are nearing age 70 and all of a sudden are having issues with shoulder and arm pain and some doctors are perplexed. This post can help many. Thank you.

[chartist in reply to LindaP50]

LindaP50,

You're welcome! My friend is 65 and very active until this issue with his shoulder/arm. It is amazing how fast these injuries can alter your lifestyle!

Art

[LindaP50 in reply to chartist]

Indeed.

Art, our neurologist doesn't believe in supplements. Therefore, when I find posts with good information and links they are much appreciated. Hubby is on the HB1 protocol which helps him.

I'm considering the collagen for my upper arm and shoulder pain - too much shoveling snow!!

[chartist in reply to LindaP50]

LindaP50,

The mag oil (MO) can be helpful too for those snow shoveling adventures!

Art

[Springfield78]

Thank you! Having shoulder pain and grateful for another avenue to explore! Always learn valuable information from you!

[ParlePark]

Art,

Thanks for this. ! I recently had an MRI and diagnosed with a torn bicep tendon. I work out twice weekly with weights on cables. Some exercises I’ve stopped due to pain.

I recently purchased collagen on your recommendation and will give it a few months attempting to avoid surgery. We’ll see.

[chartist in reply to ParlePark]

ParlePark,

Please keep us updated on how it goes with your testing! Feedback is helpful!

Art

[ParlePark in reply to chartist]

Will do. Had a cortisone shot which helped. Not a cure but let’s me use arm, though not to full potential.

[Gioc]

Thanks Art, very informative post, anyone with PD with symptoms will find it very useful. Helping is like medicate a wounded bear, if you cannot have its trust it will bite you. To help you need strong intention, will and ability which are the components of responsibility which is basically a decision. You have this responsibility which is your choice, others could do it but limit themselves to criticizing the form rather than contributing to the content.

I am the wounded bear, few have my trust, you have it.

Thanks you.

Gio

[Hidden in reply to Gioc]

Just in case your comment was aimed at me, I am a researcher with connections to the National Hospital for Neurology and Neurosurgery, London. I would hope that my contributions to the forum are both useful and relevant.

[Gioc in reply to Hidden]

you already told me that you are an authority and since when have you also been appointed moderator of the forum to say that a post is excessively long?

[Hidden in reply to Gioc]

That was my view. If the forum begins to be littered with such long general posts it will be as easy to search the internet as search the forum.

[Gioc in reply to Hidden]

The forum, in the HU Parkinson section, has over 16,000 posts; a few more lines don't make a difference. The rules of how to write a post on which we agree at the time of registration are defined here.

Length is not a limit.

healthunlocked.com/parkinso...

[Hidden in reply to Gioc]

As you will.

[NRyan]

Thank you Art! My sister's birthday is tomorrow and I ordered some as her gift. She has arthritis in her left thumb and is in pain frequently. She started a house cleaning business and needs to use her hands! I hope this helps her continue to work pain-free!

[chartist in reply to NRyan]

NRyan,

If it is actually arthritis, I used borax (20 mule Team Borax), the laundry booster, for my brother in law. I'll have to go back and see if I can find how I made it, but I made it into a lotion that he applied regularly because he had a complication from his arthritis that allowed any one of his fingers to pull out of joint so he always wore playtex gloves with the fingertips cut off to help keep his fingers from pulling out of joint. His doctor told him that this would continue to worsen and there was nothing that he could do for it. After a month of using the lotion, his pain was gone and he never had to wear those playtex gloves any more!

I imagine that just saturating hot to warm water with borax and then soaking your hand in it for awhile each day might also be effective. Although borax has helped many people put their arthritis into remission or greatly reduce the symptoms for less than a penny a day and that includes myself, some people can not get past the idea of taking borax orally which was the case for my brother in law and that was the reason I made the lotion for him. The problem with the topical approach is that borax is a relatively large molecule and does not pass through the skin easily at all, but I guess in the case of the hands, enough is able to get to the joints to be of help.

Here is a link to a post that I wrote about borax and arthritis:

healthunlocked.com/parkinso...

Borax does not work for everyone and not everybody can tolerate it, but for me it was life changing! An alternative to borax is boron which more people are willing to test. Borax is 11.3% boron. There are many different boron based supplements, but most are too low of a dose to see benefit.

Art

[LindaP50 in reply to chartist]

Borax for arthritis. How interesting. I'll read your link.

We've used CBD oil for arthritis. Once again, doesn't work for everyone. Source: headandheal.com

[chartist in reply to LindaP50]

There is a lot of information in that post, but there is a particular link in there that is most interesting where they actually used borax in a study with arthritic patients. I have been in remission for over a decade by using borax for less than a penny a day!

Art

[LindaP50 in reply to chartist]

And, if Borax doesn't help with my arthritis it won't be a waste of money as Borax has so many other uses.

[chartist in reply to LindaP50]

and it gets your white clothes whiter!!!

[mistydog1]

I don't know about the collagen I am sure it didn't hurt anything. My experience was I tore my rotator cuff tendon extremely painful. this past October. I was given the choice physical therapy or surgery. I know people who opted for the surgery and still had to go to physical therapy anyway. So I opted for the physical therapy to start with. It took about 2 months but my arm is about 90%.

[LAJ12345]

Thanks ! I have ordered some. This is my husbands main remaining problem. Stiffness and soreness in his shoulders and knees. I’m also going to try boswellia as it seems to help some people too.

[Kia17]

Hi Art

What do you think of this?

vitauthority.com/collection...

Thank you

[chartist in reply to Kia17]

Kia,

The ingredients look very similar except that they add 50 mg of hyaluronic acid, but they lack the bioperine as an absorption enhancer. In reviewing so many reviews, I believe the bioperine is effective for the purpose of enhancing absorption for two reasons. One it seemed like some of the better reviews were attached to products that contain bioperine and two, the supplement I chose only uses three capsules per day whereas some supplements require 6 capsules per day or about twice as much collagen and those that used 6 capsules, did not appear to use bioperine. On the plus side, bioperine is relatively inexpensive and available by itself.

Two other additions that may be useful with collagen is vitamin C and lysine.

One unknown is the percentage of each type of collagen in each different supplement.

Art

[Kia17 in reply to chartist]

Many thanks Art

👍

[chartist]

A bit more of a warning on Amazon reviews. Recently, as in this week, I submitted a review about a product I had purchased on Amazon from at least three different suppliers at different times. The product performed similarly from each supplier, but one supplier was very significantly more expensive than the others at about twice the cost for the same product so on that review I wrote as much as I thought buyers should be aware that this particular supplier was charging more than other suppliers. I rated the product at three stars and explained about the price and said I would not be buying from that supplier any more because I thought that doubling the price was excessive by any standard!

At the same time I posted another review of the same product from a different supplier and rated it 4 stars with no complaint about the price because their price was in line with the majority of suppliers. My first review was rejected with a note saying that my review did not meet their standards, while my second review was accepted.

I went to the page that they suggested that supposedly was to explain their standards, but I saw nothing that clearly explained why my review was rejected. Amazon asks me to review products that I purchase on their website regularly, but I will be declining those reviews from now on. To me, if you don't want to hear the truth about a supplier, then you shouldn't ask for reviews! You can't just cherry pick the good reviews and ignore the bad reviews. In the page that Amazon directed me to about reviews, it also said that once you give a review and it is rejected, you can not review it again! Amazon needs to correct this policy or their reviews will become completely meaningless!

Art

[Kia17]

Hi Art

What is the best time to take Collagen?

Before , after or with meal? Morning or evening?

Many thanks

Kia

[chartist in reply to Kia17]

Hi, Kia.

As long as it works out, I take it on an empty stomach, first thing in the morning with at least 8 ounces of water, but I have taken with and without food at almost any time of the day. I've never noticed any stomach issues either.

Art

[Kia17 in reply to chartist]

Many thanks Art

[Kia17]

Here is the containing Amino acids for the Vitalauthority collagen

ibb.co/Wy8YKTz

[chartist]

I just wanted to update on my friend who has been testing a collagen supplement. He got a little carried away because his arm/shoulder has been feeling so much better that he decided to lift some heavy boxes (40-65 lbs and there were about 15 of these boxes) to put away in a storage shed. This required that he lift these boxes straight over his head because he was stacking them. Well it appears that he undid some of the healing that had taken place and the next day his arm had pain and less range of motion. About 5 days later he told me that he felt he was almost back to where he was before the box lifting incident, but clearly slowed what ever healing is taking place. I told him it is probably going to take longer to heal now and to avoid that type of activity for at least a few months.

When I was talking to him, he told me that his lower back had been hurting him for about a year now and I could see it in the way he moved and especially noticeable when he was getting up from a seated position. I t would take him about 3 to 5 minutes to be able to fully straighten up. He told me that in this past week it dawned on him that the pain in his lower back was gone! I had noticed in this visit with him that he was moving like a younger person and he was getting up and down from a seated position quicker. His movements seem faster and more fluid and he could straighten up immediately when getting up from a sofa or chair! I was surprised by this and asked what he had done for his back and he told me nothing and that the only change that he had made was the addition of the collagen supplement!

There is no way to know if his back would have gotten better on its own, but that seems unlikely for someone who had this back pain for a year with no respite from that pain during the year. To my point of view, it seemed as though, if anything, he had continuously gotten worse over the past year and now that pain is gone! He told me that he felt the reason for the improvement was the collagen supplement which he says he has been taking everyday. He told me that the change must have been very gradual and that he had not realized his back must have been slowly getting better until one day it just dawned on him that he didn't feel the pain anymore and it was much easier for him to get up from bed or a chair!

Just another anecdotal report about collagen, but I thought it was worth mentioning since many PWP report lower back pain as well as arm and shoulder pain. No guarantee that this would work for any one else, but I thought it was worth sharing.

Art

[Despe]

Art, thanks for the update! Husband's back has been hurting him for the last few weeks. He was diagnosed with groin hernia and I have read that back pain could be a symptom. We have an appointment with a surgeon next week. One misfortune after the other. If his back pain is a hernia symptom, would collagen help, I wonder.

[chartist in reply to Despe]

I had a groin hernia and for me it caused knee pain which made me walk off balance and I'm sure that if I let it go long enough it could of caused back issues! I would wait til after the surgery before trying anything else.

Btw, I had no notice of your question and I just happened to see it by accident.

Art

[Despe in reply to chartist]

Thanks for the info, Art! Did you have surgery? As usual, I educated myself about the specific operation to be prepared to ask the right questions.

Some time ago, I had problems with receiving new posts, everything back to normal now.

[chartist in reply to Despe]

No recent surgeries. Glad you are connected properly again!

Art

[fifthbird]

Hi Art: I was happy to see this post because I have a lot of trouble with connective tissue injuries. I decided to try the particular brand of collagen you linked to in the article. I understand why you chose it; after a surface review it seemed good to me, too. I figured it couldn't hurt. But I had a terrible GI reaction to it. I'll spare the details, but after doing some research, I see that GI issues can be a side effect of collagen supplements for some people.

I stopped taking the supplement and also went back to look more closely at the Amazon reviews for the product. If you filter for the one star reviews, you'll get a very different picture of this company and how it, perhaps, has unethically garnered so many great reviews. I'm not trying to sink the idea of collagen supplementation, nor am I complaining about your post, just offering a caution based on my experience.

[chartist in reply to fifthbird]

fifthbird,

I did see reviews showing the same as you, gastro issues. I understand what you are saying and the studies I have seen so far have not mentioned this common side effect. I do believe it is real!

What I saw in reviews of other collagen supplements, some require that you take more than double the amount and some as much as three times the amount! I can only imagine what that dosing would do to someone who is sensitive to collagen supplements!

I can only speak from my friends experience and my personal experience. We both had no issue with gastro sensitivity. I could not convince my friend now to stop taking this supplement and for myself, I believe it is helping me in a different health issue and at this point I would not stop either. I did give it a very good review on Amazon based on my friends experience. That was not based on any incentive that this company may be offering.

To be fair, anyone can be allergic to almost anything or may be overly sensitive and this is pretty much true of many supplements, vitamins and medications. Even vitamin B-1 is not agreeable with everyone! People have reported, hypertension, allergic rash and digestive issue to name a few. Dr. Costantini reported a patient in his office who would throw up immediately after receiving her IM / B-1 injection! This precluded her using B-1.

I'm sorry that collagen did not work out for you, I wish it had! Thank you for the feedback, this will be useful for any forum members who are considering it!

Btw, I would return the product to Amazon and if you are a prime member it should be easier! Why take a loss on a product that is not working for you? They can't reuse a used product like this and sometimes they just credit you back and tell you to throw it away.

Art

[fifthbird in reply to chartist]

Thank you for the excellent suggestion to return the product! I hadn't thought that would be possible but it's no problem. They are having me send it back but there's no charge for the shipping and they'll refund my $27. (We do have a Prime membership.)

[chartist in reply to fifthbird]

I'm glad that you were able to get your money back on that supplement! If you can't take it, what good is it for you?

On another thought regarding joints, have you ever looked into gelatin for the purpose?

Art

[fifthbird in reply to chartist]

I haven't looked into gelatin specifically, but I will check it out. I have a condition called joint hypermobility syndrome. It's genetic, and standard thinking is that there are no meds or supplements to help with it. Just lifestyle modifications and PT. But I try to keep an open mind. It's an uncomfortable thing to have with PD, because one makes my muscles stiff and the other makes my joints unstable, so I'm prone to lots of nagging injuries.

[chartist in reply to fifthbird]

Based on you having EDS, the collagen supplement seemed like a reasonable idea to replace missing or deleted/depleted collagen. Along that line of thinking, other supplements that can replace, increase, or possibly;y protect collagen production are vitamin C, lysine, gelatin, hyaluronic acid, aloe vera and possibly proline.

Art

[fifthbird in reply to chartist]

I thought so, too! Thank you for the other supplement ideas. I will continue to look into this.

[Kia17]

Hi Art

I’d like thank you for bringing up the collagen peptides effects on tendons , joints, ligaments. After your post ,I have been taking Multi- Collagen Peptides for a couple of months and I have noticed more fluidity in my joints and even balaced my mood. I have always had muscle knots in my shoulder but recently they have been notably reduced.

Thanks again 👍

[chartist in reply to Kia17]

Kia,

You're welcome! I am very glad to hear that you have found good benefit with this supplement!Thank you for providing feedback on your experience, Kia! Oddly, people generally use it to improve hair skin and nails, but it obviously has other benefits! Interestingly, I have not noticed much difference with hair skin and nails other than a slight improvement or at least that is how it appears to me with either brand.

Kia, did you take the recommended dose and when did you first start to notice improvement after starting on the supplement?

On a related note, I tried another brand that appeared to have the same ingredients including Bioperine and it was $10 less making it seem like a bargain, but for whatever reason, it did not work for me and so I am back to the original one I recommended. I think that although it contained collagen types I, II, III, V & X, the actual content of each type must be different and that is the reason for the difference in efficacy. So I will stick with what I originally tried.

My friend who first tested it for me, also feels the original recommendation is better than the other one that appeared to have the same ingredients.

Art

[Kia17 in reply to chartist]

Art,

I have only taken Vitauthority's Multi Collagen Peptides which has all types of collagen and hyalutonic acid and vitamin C. I noticed its effects after a month of taking it. I take one serving (3 capsules) in the morning. By the way it has also strengthened my nails. PLUS adding more muscle mass to my body.

Your contribution to this forum highly appreciated.

Kia

[Kwinholt]

Art, As a long distance runner I’m going to try it. Ever since my diagnosis of PD 7 years ago I’ve had issues with torn tendons , more recent a complete hamstring sever. Which on Halloween I had a reattachment surgery with anchors. Out of over 20 years of running , I had never had these kind of issues until PD. Hmmm, could it be related? This last one has taken the wind out of my sails and the recovery is very slow and painful. It’s work giving a try . Thank you for the info. Karen

[chartist in reply to Kwinholt]

Karen,

There is a specific potent antibiotic called Ciprofloxacin that is noted for causing tendon ruptures, but doctors never tell you this. I think they figure that it is more important to treat whatever they are treating than to worry about side effects and adverse reactions which may never even appear, so I understand the reasoning, but tough luck for the ones who get this side effect of Cipro. Have you ever used it? My friend with the torn tendons and ligaments was on several courses of Cipro.

google.com/search?q=antibio...

Statins, the cholesterol lowering drugs are also noted for blown tendons and again, doctors never mention these adverse reactions until after the fact if at all.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Please keep us posted, Karen and let us know if the supplement helps you.

Art

[Kwinholt]

Art, I have never taken either one of those medications but very good information to know. I will keep you posted. I have already ordered it. 😊. Karen

[chartist]

I wanted to give another update on my friend who is using the collagen supplement for his torn tendons and ligaments. It turned out that he had ordered several bottles of the other product that showed the exact same ingredients on the label so he had decided to continue to use them up and then go back to the original product that he started with, but at two and a half bottles used up out of the three, he switched back to the original product

With the second product, he told me that his pain and limited range of motion had continued to worsen, but within a week of switching back to the original product he has gone back to almost no pain and continuing improvement in his range of motion again. He said he is going to stick with the original product from now on. I reminded him to not lift heavy boxes any more and avoid over working his affected arm for at least a couple of months! He is happy again!

Art

[Kia17]

Hi Art

Is Multi-Collagen safe for longterm use?

Thank you

Kia

[chartist in reply to Kia17]

Kia, I think the best way to answer your question is to look up how much collagen is already in the human body! You might be surprised!

On a related note, vitamin C will generally increase collagen and is highly likely to be synergistic with collagen supplementing, but to get back to the point, consider how many people mega dose on vitamin C everyday!

Art

[Kia17]

Thank you Art. I take it as a yes to its safety profile.

Kia

[chartist in reply to Kia17]

A relevant quote:

' Collagen is the main component of connective tissue, and is the most abundant protein in mammals, making up about 25% to 35% of the whole-body protein content.Jun 5, 2019 '.

Art

[chartist in reply to chartist]

I should add that the quote above essentially expresses why it was collagen that I mainly focused on for his torn tendons and torn ligaments. Of course the vitamin C would just be additive!

Art

[Kia17 in reply to chartist]

Many thanks Art. Multi-Collagen been very beneficial for me.

Kia

[chartist in reply to Kia17]

I'm glad to hear it was helpful for you, Kia! That made the post worth it!

Art

[Kia17]

Thank you for reminding us of a powerful supplement Art!

Kia

[Smittybear7]

Nutritional frontiers caries a product called HAPlus.You have to take it for several months but it helps. Also purity products carriers a good product. You can check out the products on their website. Good luck. I have used both products and find them very helpful.

[chartist]

I have posted a new working link for the product that worked for my friend in the original post as the old link was no longer working. It is worth noting that he tried another collagen product that listed the exact same ingredients, but did nothing for his tendons and ligaments, so it must not be just the ingredients, but the amounts of each ingredient in the supplement . Not all collagen supplements are created equal!

My friend has not been taking the supplement for at least three weeks now and is still about 95% improved over where he started at and is very happy with his results as he can use his arm again with no pain.

Art