CLL Support Association
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Food vs supplements

My oncologist agrees with Green tea and turmeric being beneficial for CLL but she prefers using turmeric powder in food and drinking green tea as opposed to supplements that may not have contents regulated and also contain questionable fillers etc. I had purchased 1 bottle of DECAFFEINATED green tea extract which I will probably use up and then ?

Any suggestions?

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To get therapeutic levels you will be looking at about 15 cups of green tea daily, and brew temperature needs to be kept around 160 degrees...

You use green tea and curcumin sequentially according to mouse studies, so I guess you have a day of tea and a day curries...

Good luck,

~chris

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I really don’t want to drink 15 cups a day lol ... but I understand the potential risk of ? Supplements - surely there are some reputable brands?

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Well if you use decaffinated extracts, then check the amount of EGCG, specifically stated on the label... any national brand is probably OK.

Decaffination process effects the EGCG levels and it must be added back into the product...so levels vary considerably.

~chris

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I incorporated matcha green tea in my diet 6 years ago after researching the health benefits of matcha green tea. My routine has been to include matcha tea in my fruits and vegetable smoothie for breakfast, then having a matcha latte in mid to late afternoon, which has the green tea, hot water ,and warm almond milk. After I was diagnosed with CLL in November, I decided to increase my intake my adding EGCG supplementes purchased through Amazon, and then had my liver enzymes tested during my annual physical in January. My alt level was elevated and out of range, so I decided to drop the supplements, and a re-test of my liver enzymes 3 weeks later showed I was back in range. Don't want to risk having liver issues.

Tumeric seems to have positive health effects, but the Mayo study seemed to indicate an antagonistic effect when both green and tumeric were consumed, although the negative impact could be mitigated by alternating consumption of tumeric and green tea on alternative days or weeks.

I decided to stick with daily use of matcha tea without the supplements, and wait for larger studies showing the impact of tumeric and green tea consumed either concurrently or consecutively. Just one person's option where the science is promising but incomplete.

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I read the mice liked cream and sugar in their tea!

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Chris,

Why 160F for Green tea. I have read that the hotter the water the more ECGC. I think it is good to let it cool down though since drinking tea too hot is not good,

Hoffy

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You loose 12% of EGCG when it hits water.,..and over 160 deg the G gets dropped and you get useless EGC...

This is from a huge USDA study done in the late 1980s.. its still online, but takes a lot of work to drill down into it...

~chris

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Wow. I read something else in the past but this makes sense.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

I will start brewing my tea at a lower temp!! 3-4 mins max.

Thanks.

Hoffy.

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The article I saw said 85 C or 185 Fahrenheit is optimal. Is that correct?

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No.. keep it in the 160-165 range...

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Thank you for this helpful information ... I will look into the matcha tea. I hope there are some decaffinated varieties.

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My doc has told me of the benefits of turmeric and green tea but is reluctant to prescribe a daily dosage level. He did mention that simply drinking green tea requires ALOT of cups of tea so supplements seem to be the way to go. For now I am simply taking 500mg of turmeric daily and making matcha green tea smoothies. The matcha tea is more pure and I am concerned about possible impurities in green tea capsules bought through Amazon.

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My Integrative Health Dr suggested I use , Teavigo by Pure, an encapsulated green tea extract containing 94% EGCG. I take it daily.

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PS....l also take Curcumin 500 by Pure....the helpful and important ingredient in turmeric

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EGCG and curcumin taken daily cancel out any positive effects in CLL... and dosing and how it is taken is important.

Read the studies, so at least you understand the science and try to get to a therapeutic dose so you see some benefit.

Also understand EGCG is a type of chemo.. it effects the cell reproduction and unwinding of DNA.

Currently the trend in CLL is away from chemotherapy for this reason...

~chris

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Chris, I though the ECGC is closer to a targeted therapy than a cytotoxic chemo. From What I understand is cytotoxic chemotherapy destroys part of the cells and then they choose to die provide there is not a 17P or tp53 issue. Hoffy

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I subscribe to ConsumerLab.com an independent testing company. For Green Tea they currently show 14 supplement in pill form, 4 beverages, 6 from tea bags & loose tea, & 6 matcha green tea powders. All are cost compared and checked for EGCG levels & approved or not depending on veracity of claim on labels. Only the matcha teas have been checked for arsenic, cadmium, and pesticide levels while the others are only checked for lead levels. Their general admonition is to stay away from Chinese products as these are most often the ones with harmful lead levels. I know they are advertising an update to Green Tea products shortly and I think I might write and ask if that will include checking for harmful chemicals for all products.

This is copyrighted info and perhaps I shouldn't be sharing their specific findings. I will just mention that Honest Tea... not that honest. Before I share anything else let me see if I get sued for sharing that Honest assessment without their permission. Maybe it will help that I also suggest you get their subscription (around $30 I think)

Overall most items in pill form they tested were approved for both quality and appropriate labeling. And when it came to cost there's were 2 high in EGCG & low in price and I suggest you get one of them now (get it..... get the supplement, now).

*********

When it comes to supplements, besides not knowing for sure what's in it or what's not in it, another variable that makes one even less sure is bioavailability. Just because you take something with 500 mg doesn't mean your body is utilizing anything close to 500 mg unless perhaps you have an intravenous drip going.

I've read a few things about Green Tea & Turmeric bioavailability & what I recall is that taking Green Tea on an empty stomach increases its efficacy (though may increase one's nausea) and taking it with Fish Oil or Vitamin C may help increase it as well.

When it comes to maximizing Turmeric potency you should know it (along with Vitamin A, D3, E, & K) is oil/fat soluble. Because of this I usually mix it in olive oil and then add yogurt. I heat the oil, mix in the powder, and then stir in the yogurt (some berries and bananas and I've got a dessert I seem to have been able to tolerate & actually enjoy on most of the approx. 200 days per year I make it).

-gene

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An acquaintance of mine on another forum recommended that people in the U.S. look for green tea with the FDA GMP stamp on it as indicating that they follow current good manufacturing practices for pharmaceuticals :

fda.gov/Drugs/DevelopmentAp...

I've tried to find EGCG or green tea on Google that is USP certified, but failed. For vitamins, USP certification is a must, in my opinion.

I only have an occasional cup of green tea, and once tried a green tea capsule, but had gastric pain, so tossed the rest out. My CLL progress is quite indolent for now in any case.

The ConsumerLab.com subscription is $2.88/month for 24 months ($69 total, or $3.50/month for 12 months ($42)

consumerlab.com/reviews/Gre...

I don't subscribe. But they offer some general conclusion on the link above. They are a private company, not government, and there's no indication that they themselves are certified, but I believe they use certified or regulate labs. I would trust them a more than the manufacturers of products. They have been unsuccessfully sued by a nutritional products trade group:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consu...

I count that in their favor.

=seymour=

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Below is information on Green tea I have posted in the past. See my recent posts as well,

Make sure to work with a Doctor to get your liver panel every 4- 6 weeks to make sure there are no problems. (AST, ALT).

Per your interest in green tea options see the types shown below. Note this is not medical advice and only what I did myself. I am not a doctor.

Please read the Mayo clinic phase 2 study paper as well.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Healthy Origins Teavigo green tea supplements have the most ECGG with no caffeine for the best price ( you can get it on Amazon). Teavigo is also made by another but is much more expensive. The actual Teavigo powder is made by a Japanese company in Japan.

The Now brand is the best value. It has 200 mg of ECGC see but 4 mg of caffeine. I would take 2000 MG (10 pills ) of the Now brand in the morning and then about 1500 mg ( 10 pills ) the Teavigo go in the early afternoon. Papers have shown one gets the most amount of ECGC if you take it on a empty stomach but in the clinical trials the stop that for possible stomach problems.

I would also drink about 6 cups of strong green tea a day to give an additional 500 mg of ECGC. Surprisingly the basic Lipton and even the Decaffeinated Bigelow tea had a fair amount of ECGC see at about 80 mg a cup. I happen to really like the Rishi brand "Matcha super green" from a flavor standpoint They are out of Milwaukee, WI . It said in the consumerlab.com Report that the nylon tea bags takes out part of the ECGC. I also drink it from Raw tea so the nylon bag is not involved. I just use a loose tea holder. You can buy it in raw form as well. Pure Matcha super Green tea is good but I get tired of it after a while. Depending how strong your tea is it can give somewhere between 60 to 120 mg of ECGC.

I found these through the consumerlab.com website that I joined. It cost about $40 per year but they have a very good articles on all supplements.

I would also taking high-dose ECGC with Curcumin every other day but that increased my ALT liver panel so I stopped. The paper from the Mayo clinic on combining it is only done in vitro - in a lab. So I would stick with green tea only.

In the Mayo clinic paper the people got good results over all although 4 eventually had to get treatment per the paper. The green tea seem to help for my CLL but unfortunately I have a very strong version. 17P deleted. I have trisomy 12 as well. It gave me more energy as well.

I was diagnosed a year ago but will start treatment within the next few weeks. A targeted therapy clinical trial combining Ibruvica and Veneticlax. My WBC counts have rose from about 10 to 90 over the last year. I have a rather large swollen lymph nodes as well.

Make sure to work with a Doctor if you go to high doses.

Be well,

Hoffy

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I drink 4 cups of Decaf green tea (I take Decaf for reasons other than CLL) & a 750mg supplement, but this is way less than they used on the Mayo study. I don't know if it helps or not, but my wife seems to think it does as my count continues to rise slowly, so I'm continuing to do it.

Other than this I tend to exercise an hour to an hour & half a day, mainly walking as fast as I can, which isn't very fast due to a hip problem, so I can't call it powerwalking.

I think a combination of the two are helping to keep the numbers down, although I'm not complacent enough to think that this can't change, but I'm doing my best to keep it this way.

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I switched to a vegan diet. I know people who have brought their numbers down on a vegan diet.

The book n of 1 discuss this.

This are great meat substitutes now so I never feel hungry or denied .

Watch forks over knives on Netflix. Food choices on Netflix too.

Be well ,

Hoffy

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