Cholesterol Support

Statins

I read so many posts on here about how statins are bad for you, serve no useful purpose and you would be better changing lifestyle to reduce cholesterol..

Well I'm on a statin and until my Dr tells me otherwise will stay on it - I don't want to have a heart attack or stroke thank you very much...

Surely if they were complete rubbish Dr's would stop prescribing them?

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If you've read such things on this forum they were, most probably, supported by medical/scientific documents and reports that were written by qualified medical or scientific professionals, along with video statements or lectures by qualified medical or scientific professionals. So, if you must blame/criticise someone, please blame/criticisize them - not us.

The professionals provided documentation to show and to prove that statins STIMULATE ARTERIOSCLEROSIS and HEART FAILURE.

In other words, a reduction of cholesterol via statins will NOT prevent the above worrying conditions that you're trying to avoid. In actual fact, according to the medical and scientific documentation the statins can, and do, cause degenerative conditions not only to your body but also to your brain.

No one on this forum is forcing you/others to stop consuming statins.

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Well said!

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I agree with you but find your response a little harsh

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Doctors rarely keep up to speed with recent research and most of their information comes from Drug Reps. When a large research project was in place in an attempt to try and prove that Statins were without side effects - over 6000 people were removed :-( - due to side effects.

People dying in hospital were more likely to have low cholesterol :-) - another research piece.

Time to do some serious reading - happy to post some links for you.

Why have heart issues not reduced ? - have you read the The Cholesterol Con - by Dr Malcolm Kendrick ?

Cholesterol is naturally produced in the body and for good reason.

Have you ever looked into VitK2 Deficiency ?

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Thank you Marz - I would appreciate those links you mentioned. I am building up some reading material.. :)

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Will do my best ... so here goes ....

anh-usa.org/the-grave-dange...

The above link is just one of many. However it would be helpful if you could tell me which websites/books/Newsletters you already follow as I do not want to repeat myself.

drmalcolmkendrick.org

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Thank you - thought provoking indeed...

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Having information enables you to ask the right questions :-)

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I'm no blaming anyone and I'm all for open discussion, but what I see is a lot of negativity which quite frankly is very scary. Surely if all of these claims are true then Doctors are unethically and against their hippocratic oath causing great harm.

I'm sorry if I came across as confrontational - I didn't mean to.

I'd like to see stringent evidence based statistics - if they are available - that statins cause more harm than good..

:)

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Here's the link to a very recent post by Woody, where you can view some info and links... plus remarks from another member who was, because of his own fear, critical of me. 🤔

healthunlocked.com/choleste...

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I'd say file.scirp.org/pdf/OJEMD_20... is the most convincing anti paper I've seen recently. Too many earlier posts get into charismatic authors or glitzy videos or conspiracy theories. Those may convince non-scientists but aren't helpful to take to a clinical consultation.

However, I'm still looking for good advice on what to do about FH. Many statin opponents deny the condition exists or is a worry. Two of my ancestors had high cholesterol and didn't make it to 60 - it is a worry! I believe that I need to treat whatever causes my body to raise it's cholesterol, not merely the cholesterol increase, but what is it and how? Most hypotheses tested so far (that it's carb-related, that it's vitamin deficiency, ...) seem false and the rest unproven. The clinical wheels are slowly turning to convey me towards PCSK9 inhibitors and I'm really not sure about that treatment but it's seeming like my only other option will be the nuclear option of refusing treatment. I can probably delay it by waiting for the results of genetic tests done >12 months ago, but they'll cpme back eventually.

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Thank you - I have printed this off for reading after work. I will then go for a full and frank discussion with my GP..I'm horrified at the lackadaisical attitude of GP's in this...

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Doctors are well rewarded for prescribing statins. Ask him to show you research that statins prevent heart issues. No benefit for women at all.

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How are your Homocysteine levels ?

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I don't know.. I don't think this was done..

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Rarely tested on the NHS - reducing it can reduce cholesterol too - and all you need is good levels of B12 - B9 and other B's along with Betaine HCL. Low Thyroid hormones can also cause raised cholesterol :-(

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Hear both sides of the story. It should not be a verbal boxing match. Discussion.

I respect both sides.

Every person is entitled to their opinion, doctors can adjust statins and change them if they feel that a particular drug is not the best match for a patient. Like any other medication, tbe benefits must outweigh the risks- taking it or refusing it is the personal choice of the patient.

We are all in this journey of good health together.

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I took statins for 10 years and was happy to do so, until I found out I had a critical 70% blocked main artery and needed a bypass. I did have some small side effects which I put up with but 18months after my bypass have stopped statins and side effects gone.

You have to do your own research and make your own mind up -if you are happy with statins and have no side effects then continue with them. My main reason to stop was that statins cut off lots of natural pathways of things in addition to cholesterol-I now control my cholesterol by my nutrition (essentially the Mediterranean diet) and am keen to not continue with pills, apart from daily aspirin.

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If you can take statins and they do not give you any side effects that thats fine but some people like myself do suffer bad side effects. That is very painful muscles and bloating. I stopped taking them for a while and these side effects went away.There are many different types of statins and GPs get a lot of money to prescribe these so there is an incentive to prescribe them. Some GPs do admit they cause bad side effects but not all of them admit this. In some people they can cause memory loss especially if on a high dose. A friend of mind thought he had the onset of dementia and stopped taking statins for a while and within a week or so his memory started to return. This also happened to my Sister. However as I said before if you are happy to take them and have no side effects then that is good.

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I would like to agree that doctors that I have dealt with either totally deny the nasty side effects or say that these side effects are better than getting a heart attack....But there are many people getting stents because of major artery blockage after taking statins for many years...

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I agree with you Vin. 🖖🏻

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That would be true if Doctors were not handcuffed by their controlling bodies. Basically they do as they are told. So you may well ask would not the controlling bodies stop advising Statins if there were better alternatives. Well you are asking the drug companies who control the controlling body to shoot themselves in the foot business wise, thats not going to happen.

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Ask yourself this, why if cholesterol causes heart disease do people not get heart disease ie plaque, building up in their veins. They only get it in parts of their arteries ie areas close to branches in arteries mainly and also not in a circular fashion around the artery, it is more half moon. Also when veins are grafted in by pass ops they too get plaque build up but not in their original position. Cholesterol is present in veins and arteries, now why do you think the above happens ?

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So important to know your Homocysteine levels - and rarely tested in the NHS - umm I wonder why. I live in Crete and in the local blood testing Clinic no-one batted an eyelid when I asked for the test. When you lower your Homocysteine levels - cholesterol lowers too !

Back in the 60's when they were investigating plaque and causes - they found homocysteine and cholesterol as well as other stuff. Big Pharma were ploughing huge lumps of dosh into Statins so the research showing the effects of Homocysteine were well and truly buried. WHY - well all you need is a good level of B12 - B9 and all the B vitamins.

Back in 2005 I had raised cholesterol when I was first diagnosed with Hashimotos - so treating the raised Homocysteine accordingly my levels no longer require checking :-)

Homocysteine is a far more important marker for heart issues and stroke ....

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So how do you lower your Homocysteine levels?

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As mentioned above - B12 - B9/Folate and Betaine HCL. I would test first - B12 - Folate - Ferritin - VitD. B12 is good at over 500 - Folate mid range - also Ferritin and VitD over/around 100 if in the UK.

Happy to help 😊

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Thats great if your body tolerates them. However I have tried numerous starins and have been subjected to severe intolerable leg and arm pain. The pain lingers day after day for several months after discontinuing them. So life style change IS a better solution for some of us.

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Intuitively you understand that ALL prescription medications have detrimental side effects. When taking prescriptions you're hoping the benefits outweigh the risks. The question in your case remains 'why wouldn't you alter your diet and lifestyle to address the root cause of your medical conditions so you don't have to play this game of Russian roulette'?

If Russian roulette is your game - then good luck and keep taking them. The statin industry brings in $40 billion annually, do you think the pharmaceutical companies are going to allow any definitive anti-statin medical study to even begin or see the light of day? You're not going to find any definitive anti-statin medical studies.

Look at how the sugar industry paid off researchers in the 1960s to cover up how sugar is the real cause of heart disease and not dietary fat. To this day, 70 years after the sugar cover-up, the brainwashing of the medical establishment is so deeply rooted, most doctors still tell you to avoid fat in your diet.

Your view is tainted because you begin with the assumption that the doctor knows best. If doctors know best why do so many people still die of heart attacks and strokes? Half of all heart attacks and strokes occur to people with normal cholesterol levels. Why didn't statins help those people?

The fish stinks from the head down and its not the front-line doctors who are the problem, it is their oversight medical associations who dictate policy on treatment guidelines. They in turn rely on researchers - who conduct research funded directly or indirectly by pharmaceutical giants.

If you want to know your risk of heart attack and stroke get these measures from your next blood test:

CRP - c-Reactive Protein - inflammation in the body

MPO - myeloperoxidase - inflammation in the arteries

fibrinogen - platelet coagulation risk

homocysteine - platelet aggregation tendency

Lp-Pla2 (risk of plaque rupture)

Lp(a) - genetic level of atherogenic component of LDL

...and keep in mind statins do not help improve most of these measures.

Billionaire investor famously once said - 'if you're in a poker game for 30 minutes and still don't know who the patsy is...then you're the patsy'.

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Thank you for your reply. I actually have an excellent lifestyle.. Quit smoking 10 years ago, cycle about 70 mile a week, walk regularly, go to yoga weekly, cut back drastically on alcohol - now I only drink a few times a month, Eat a gluten free diet (am coeliac), rarely eat sugar, am still a bit overweight (1 to 1 1/2 stone) and recently discovered to be borderline type II diabetic,,

So not sure what else I can do ..

But will ask for those extra bloods for sure, will I be met with a barrier do you think? I wonder if they should be done privately if my GP won't do them, although CRP is pretty routine and sure it will have been done at least..

I do have a bit of a family history (but not FH as this was tested) maternal granddad died suddenly of a heart attack aged 63, Mum quadruple bypass aged 64, brother quadruple bypass aged 48....

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Oh and I have no idea what a patsy is..:)

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LDL levels - elevated LDL levels are not necessarily atherogenic. An NMR Lipoprofile blood test can break down the LDL sub-fraction and tell you whether or not a real risk exists. Read my last post on my own results:

healthunlocked.com/choleste...

P.S. From Dictionary.com

A patsy is defined as: a person who is easily swindled, deceived, coerced, persuaded, etc.; sucker.

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That's me alright..:)

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I think that applies to most of us when it comes to the medical industry.

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Weee - any request for unconventional blood work will be met with resistance. If necessary go a private clinic. Furthermore you should read the work of Dr. Linus Pauling and Dr. Matthias Rath.

They answer the question as to why people who exercise vigorously sometimes have fatal heart attacks or strokes.

Watch this video:

read this:

practicingmedicinewithoutal...

By the way, if you are still overweight with all of that activity then you are likely ingesting sugar in the form of simple carbohydrates such as:

white flour products - bread, pizza, pasta

white rice

white potatoes

soft-drinks

fruit juices

Excess body weight increases blood pressure which damages your endothelium and attracks cholesterol as the repair tool.

Good luck.

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Thank you ..I am going to watch all of those videos when I get back from work. I am coeliac so eat gluten free bread and pasta..Although I do suspect that they make them palatable by adding sugar ..I only drink coffee, coconut water (i'm addicted), turmeric latte's and tap water. I very rarely drink fruit juices and never drink coke or anything like that. I do like potatoes and rice though...

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Weee - I just re-read your post above and saw that you said you are borderline diabetic. Note that statins have a tendency to increase blood sugar levels and can potentially CAUSE type 2 diabetes. So there's an undesirable side effect.

You should also check your ferritin levels. This measures the level of iron in your blood. Iron overload begins an oxidation process in tissues and over time diminishes the capacity of organs to function correctly, including the pancreas. Those who become type 2 diabetic often have iron overload.

The best way to reduce iron overload, or to reduce the potential for iron overload is to modify the diet to reduce consumption of red meats (including pork and veal), and shell-fish, as well as donating blood a few times per year. Turmeric is the 'go-to' supplement for helping the body remove excess iron.

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You write that like it's just a case of asking for those tests. Not unless you've a few hundred quid and live near a big city to get them private. Otherwise, sme like crp are pretty easy to get a GP to do but others like lpa there seems to be maybe one NHS lab in Glasgow that processes it.

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I'm sorry but I live in a big city in Canada and have access to many labs nearby. That said if it is a matter of health I would make the effort to get to an urban centre to get the needed test at least once or twice per year. We pay $35 to $70 Canadian dollars for such a test which is about 20 to 40 pound sterling.

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Which is the needed test? You listed six. And when I looked here, it would be about £150 a test and a trip to a Nuffield hospital, or slightly less money but more time and stress and pollution to go to Portugal, but the ones of those I have managed to get done have shown nothing (four, I think but I've not yet checkef that it's exactly those). If I'd spent a grand on them, I'd be kicking myself.

Anyway, for most Brits, I think they'll put this in the "too difficult for too low chance of success" bin.

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the NMR Lipoprofile which breaks down your LDL into more detail will tell you whether or not the elevated LDL you have is dangerous or not.

The Lp(a) tells you how much of the most atherogenic component of LDL you have.

I would do one of those two, in that order.

Good luck.

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Lp(a) is the most recent of the four I've managed to get on the NHS so far, returning 230mg/L. The other I could find easily was C reactive protein, which is "<1mg/L". As I understand it, both of these suggest low risk (and I think the other two did too), but my LDL remains high enough that I'm on the path towards more/stronger drugs.

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Even those who support statins had this to say:

“But people should not take statins instead of making the lifestyle adjustments that those at risk of cardiovascular disease need to make.”

Professor Mark Baker, of the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence

Source: express.co.uk/life-style/he...

Watch the video in the link below and read this:

"Out of 100 people taking primary preventive statins for five years, "the best estimates are that one or two people will avoid a heart attack, and none will live longer, by taking statins," Redberg said.

To prevent just one death from any cause, 250 people would need to take statins for one to six years, according to the USPSTF's analysis.

Some studies have found no overall mortality benefit for using statins preventatively in at-risk groups. Other research has taken aim at the risk calculator itself, saying that it overestimates the likelihood of heart disease in real life."

cnn.com/2017/04/18/health/s...

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Yellow Card to report Side-Effects:-

yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk

If everyone did this, there'd be many thousands of reports flooding in.

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Lon, I agree that the side effects of almost all medications are not reported, or under- reported....Most people do not realize that their physical, cognitive, or neurological issues can be caused by the side effects of the meds they are taking, so they don't even know to report them....and some doctors have not researched side effects of meds that they are prescribing....but still continue to disregard their patients' complaints.. There is heart disease in my family, which has put me on a mission to learn all I can about the factors involved...From my research so far, it appears that statins do more harm than good...It is unbelievable that cardiologists with a biochemistry degree still deny the factual biochemical action that statins interfere with the mevalunate pathway which messes with many functions of the body and brain.

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I agree. This may interest you from Dr Duane Graveline's site:-

spacedoc.com/articles/stati...

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Thanks for the link by Dr Graveline ...it is very informative, and really shows how primary doctors, and especially cardiologists are not applying their due diligence in diagnosing many patients' symptoms.. I also have a book called "The Cholesterol Myth" which I'm reading.

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I emailed Heart UK with my questions and got pretty much short shrift: -

All medication has some degree of side effects and statins are no different. However, for many people they are a life saver. You can of course “Google” the benefits of statins.

With reference to the two publications, as a Cholesterol Charity we support the use of statins.

If you wanted further investigations you would really need to discuss this with your GP.

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Heart UK and British Heart Foundation (and the American and other global equivalents) receive money from big pharmaceutical firms... who make vast profits from those 'charities' advising and encouraging the public to take statins.

🤔

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How much is Heart UK getting and where did you find it?

Do you think this is linked to booting out most patient members a few years ago? Do you think they worried about growing patient disquiet reducing income from corporations?

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Research it yourself and you'll see that these charities receive funding from Big Pharma. It's common knowledge. Phone Heart UK and British Heart Foundation and ask them.

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Looked into it at HEART UK. There's a chunk of "corporate donations" (£140k so a bit under 10% of income) but I thought that was the likes of Benecol and Mornflake rather than the pharma. I didn't find pharma funding published anywhere and thought that you would have it, rather than relying on "common knowledge" aka gossip. You're usually so ready to provide links, but on this you say we should phone them and ask? If I do that, they'll know who I am on these forums. :(

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I also emailed BHF (the link just took me through to the BHF website..:/ :

Thank you for your email to the Heart Helpline at the British Heart Foundation. I am sorry to hear of your concerns with taken statins.

I am aware of all the negative press around taking statins which can cause concern for people on them or who are been advised to take them. I have attached an article here done by one of our medical experts on why statins are useful which I hope you find helpful.

Some research has suggested that statins can increase the risk of diabetics in those who are already at high risk. The researchers emphasised that this does not mean that you should stop taking statins if you’ve been prescribed them. I have attached here a response from our Associate Medical Director at the BHF on this research.

I hope this has been of some help. To chat to a cardiac nurse, please call us on 0300 330 3311 (calls are a similar cost to 01 or 02 numbers). The Heart Helpline is open Monday to Friday from 9am to 5pm.

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"Some research has suggested that statins can increase the risk of diabetics in those who are already at high risk. The researchers emphasised that this does not mean that you should stop taking statins if you’ve been prescribed them."

"Can increase risk of diabetes" - that's all you need to know. It's totally irrelevant that the researchers said they're not necessarily telling you to stop consuming the statins. That decision is yours - not theirs.

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Amen...I have a few siblings in their late fifties that never had a sugar level problem, except after taking statin drugs....and are now taking meds to control their sugar, which is fluctuating high and low.. I have been trying to convince them that the statins are most likely causing their pre- diabetes condition, as well as other muscle cramping issues, but they have blind faith in their doctors.

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if it wasnt for being on statins for over 30 years my heart attack would have killed me so im thankfull to the doctor for putting me on them

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Hi Wee,

Well done for provoking such an interesting discussion.

I am also a coeliac and some years ago prescribed statins amonst other drugs. I now take a 75mg aspirin and that’s all. This change was largely as a result of reading Dr Malcolm Kendrick’s blog.

Here’s a link to his video synopsis on statins.

drmalcolmkendrick.org/stati...

Peter

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Thank you - I think I went about in the wrong way a wee bit..But I am worried about it all.. I have had pain in my liver for a while now and its getting worse and I'm sure the statins are to blame..anyway I get further bloods on Thursday so will see how things are - I will have a look at the video after work..:)

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Personally I would trust my doctor if you don't ask for a second opinion or change him. Unfortunately the reviews by health professionals will go right over the average patients head. I am very aware of the shortcomings of many GP's but often this is due to so little time to stay abreast of new ideas and treatments. I am on 35 prescribed medications, a truly awful amount, imagine me trying to work out what I should stop or decrease or increase ? Frankly, like the doctors there is not enough time in the day to look at information that can be quite erroneous, on both sides of the argument and LIVE, so I trust my doctor and my consultant until I find different one's that I have confidence in. I hope that you can find peace of mind and whatever your decision, it proves right for you.

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I think the reasons for why things happen in society and varied and complex. NICE guidelines govern what the doctors can or cannot or should and should not do in UK. NICE guidelines are put together by people who take a view on 'evidence' available. And those people will have their own views.

I was trying to find out what the value is to pharmaceutical companies of people being prescribed statins. I did not search for long and I'm afraid I stopped with this timely article, published today in the Telegraph (Does anyone know where or if drug costs and prescription numbers are published anywhere?)

telegraph.co.uk/news/health...

It states that 17.5 million people would be eligible to be prescribed statins (after the thresholds have been changed), and there is a statement that statins are cheap at the cost of 10p per person per day. Well, unless I am missing something, which could be the case, 17.5million * 10p * 365 days gives a whopping 638 million pounds per year as a cost of statin drugs if all these people took them. That is quite some cost incentive to someone.

My personal view is that life style choices (or dietary choices - see the Food book, by Mark Hyman , not NHS food advice, and avoidance of toxins, and correcting nutrition imbalances ) and more widespread use of diagnostic tests to support such choices would be a healthier and more pleasant way to actually bring people to good health, rather than keep people on drugs that do cause side effects and are not in any way aligned with how human beings were designed/evolved.

I also wonder how far 638 million pounds per year would go if invested in research and measures to improve in food chains, food qualtiy and food production methods to produce healthy good qualtiy food and 'functional medicine' style research to rebalance nutritional imbalances in people.

(I've cross posted - apologies if you're reading this twice - couldn't find this thread again and got the wrong community... )

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I had to come off statins because of muscle weakness hip and knee muscle weakness. They generally left me in a horrible state I have been off them for over a month and I am starting to improve. Lipitor caused me to have a 1 and 1/2 centimetre bakers cyst behind my left kneecap resulting in TKR. They also have caused me major issues with pain in my shoulder and neck.

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Oh no - I am sorry to hear that - not good at all..:(

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