Restless legs

[Cutekitten]

Hi I have not had a HA but after chest pain had 4 stents fitted to my R CA , last Wednesday. since then I have suffered with aching legs specifically behind both knees and on the inside of them and inside thighs area. It’s a dull ache and I don’t know where to put them so to speak.I have no swellings or hard areas on my legs or ankles. I took the below knee surgical stockings off after 2 days as I became more mobile . Has anyone else had this problem.? Thanks

[Khonkaen]

Its been a while since your posting with no replies, so I will offer you something. I have osteoarthritis in my knees and used to have swollen ankles until my HA and stents, I quickly lost 14kg in weight which has helped my arthritis, by allowing me to walk distances and my swollen ankles/feet disapeared straight after stenting. However, I do get a little swelling in one foot and a really nasty pain in my toes from time to time. I am sure everything is related to poor blood circulation, so I put my feet up as much as possible and massage my legs, or get my wife to do it and that helps a lot.

Blood is naturally restricted through joints like knees and ankles and further restricted by the heart having to push blood 1 metre uphill when standing. I lie on my back try to get my legs /feet as high as possible and pedal in mid air, like we used to do at school. I fidget my feet and legs a lot and all this promotes blood circulation. I am doing it as I write.

You are only a week in so take things very easy, enough just to get comfortable for at least another week and lots of rest feet up.

I have switched to a whole plant based diet (vegan minus all oil) but I cheat a little with a little fish, but have dropped everything dairy. I start my day with banana, oats, oatmilk and some fresh berries like blueberries, very tasty. I eat no processed food at all, "if man made it don't eat it".

That is my two penneth, but take everything very easy and rest, you body has been traumatised and is fighting back, give it time. I am 4 months in, a little better and people have told me the first year is the worst, then you will be fine.

[Cutekitten in reply to Khonkaen]

Thanks for your reply, it’s going to take sometime to get used to isn't it.? I wondered if the blood supply, now improved was causing the ache, I rang the hospital and they thought it might be the length of time on the cath lab bed that has affected me.... only time will tell I guess .

[Khonkaen in reply to Cutekitten]

Time and a change of lifestyle/diet that is the key to this. We are all in this together, so keep up your spirits kid.

[Henry20 in reply to Khonkaen]

Yes, it's the diet bit that is getting me at the moment. I've never been overweight and I've tried to get onto a plant based diet and I've stopped drinking. I started all this weighing 10st 7lbs and now I'm just under 9st (5ft 10 tall) which is ridiculous. I haven't been that light since I was at school!

I have to eat enough or I get migraines; so I found the plant diet near impossible - always hungry. Getting the balance right still eludes me.

[Khonkaen in reply to Henry20]

I personally think there is a problem with people like us with a plant based diet, I can't do it without cheating with fish and a small quantity of other things. However, I have to try to improve my heart condition or I back in hospital and perhaps surgery next time.

I have a lot more research to do but am going to start a thread in what I have gleaned in the last 10 years of research.

[Henry20 in reply to Khonkaen]

Khonkaen

I think we are probably going down the same route. I too have been doing a lot of reading. I am now in a state where I don't know what to think. I have had problems with statins; I was getting an increasing number of side effects that I didn't like. So I started reading about them to see how common they are, and was really surprised at how many were saying 'me too'. The side effects were getting intolerable

As a result I also started to understand a bit about how they work and what my body is made of; also the role of cholesterol in the body. I now have real doubts about some drugs I'm on and the way my body is responding to them - are they right for me? I just don't know. However, common sense says that I need to make changes, so I have to decide what changes!

My main change - I've stopped taking statins (doc didn't like it but accepted it saying 'I get lots sitting in that chair saying what you are saying'. He pointed out the problems and risks, but left it to me to make my own decision.

Another issue for me is that this is a BHF website. I really don't want to cause them problems. I'm not a doctor, I have no medical training; I really don't want anyone to stop doing what their doc has told them because of what I write.

I'd love to see what your thoughts are (I've been at this less than 4 months)

Cheers

Henry

[Khonkaen in reply to Henry20]

You are very brave stopping medication, my cholesterol is too low with HDL at only 38, total 115, but speaking to Dr Esselstyn he says that is normal for patients on his diet. My only other issue is low folic acid at only 2,2 (ideal 15), a surprise since I eat a lot of folic acid rich foods. I haven't had too many issues with statins so far, I take 40mg of Atorvastatin once a day, what problems have you had?

I hate taking drugs and stopped completly 20 years ago, up until my HA.

[Henry20 in reply to Khonkaen]

Khonkaen

Muscle pain and fatigue were the main issues, but I was increasingly getting memory issues. All of these could be my increasing age. It was only when I read a few things that I started to wonder about statins. I've been off them for a few weeks now and things are certainly getting more painless; as to my memory, I, not so sure. However, in reading about the side effects, I also found out about other issues associated with long term use of statins (I had been taking them for about a 15 months).

So I've stopped statins for 3 months, as agreed with the doc, to see what happens.

What I want to know is a bit complex to describe here. However, briefly, cholesterol, LDL and HDL, are both essential to keep us alive. So what happens to our long term health if the levels are suppressed to an unnaturally low state for years by the use of statins? We may not have cardiac problems, but do other problems arise? And I now have about 8 weeks left to come up with an answer.

I see it as a question of balance and least harm ......... and this is in part why I am so interested in lifestyle and diet changes which may put right some of the self-inflicted damage done over the last 70 years (largely in ignorance).

Henry

[Khonkaen in reply to Henry20]

My thoughts entirely.

I have only been on statins for 4 months and was told that there may be some drugs I can drop after a year or so, but not which ones they are. I am certain the aspirins are forever, so not those, but I have never had high cholesterol and it is now very low.

My faith in doctors is not exactly 100%, my ex-wife was a vet and best friend a research scientist and veterinary lecturer and doctors (including vets) are taught to push pills, that's it. They are taught next to nothing about illness prevention or general health...Jeeze I am going to get some stick over this.

But since the pharmaceutical industry is all powerful it is inevitable, money talks, big money dictates.

Anyway my next appointment with my cardiologist (Thai) is in November I will discuss dropping statins with him then, if and when.

But pleasee keep us posted.

[Henry20 in reply to Khonkaen]

Meant to add cholesterol total 52 mg/dl; HDL 23; LDL 29. which seemed very low although the doc was delighted!

[Khonkaen in reply to Henry20]

Well everything I have read is that is dangerously low.

[Henry20 in reply to Khonkaen]

Yes, I thought so too, but the consultant was very enthusiastic about it, and I didn't have any other doctor saying it was too low. Nor did they reduce the statin dose! When I read about the effects of statins, I had to decide between 'no statins' and 'reduced dose'. As you have read, I chose the former with the option to reverse the decision.

I've got Dr Esselstyn's book and read it. I just cannot hack his diet so I am following a largely Mediterranean diet. But its the balance with in that to reverse my weight loss that I need to achieve. - Reduce the fats and it seems logical that the carbs have to increase (if protein is about the same, but have actually reduced a bit I reckon). Even he keeps the statins going as I understood it. A bit of a worry, in view of my current state of knowledge, but then, I could be misinterpreting everything I've found so far ....

Henry

[Khonkaen in reply to Henry20]

Exchange of information is crucial, it got us out of the dark ages and best obtained from the horse's mouth. Why didn't you opt for a lower dosage?

The reason I don't ask my doctor is becasue I don't have one and can't get one in Portugal. I will wait until I get back to Thailand, pay some money and see the cardiologist....but do a lot of reading, well Youtube-ing as I am dyslexic.

Have you legs improved any, I get pains in my toes, right out of the blue?

[Henry20 in reply to Khonkaen]

Yes, the aches I was getting seemed to have no real reason, now I just get aches that I can attribute directly to my known physical activity. I have never had the symptoms you describe. A lower dose was my fallback position if the doc really argued in a way I couldn't refute.

There is a book (print and kindle) by a medical doctor - M Kendrick call Statin Nation (there are others of a similar title). Style is a bit glib and it is very broad brush, but it is really a summary of his views and the research of many others. I have checked some of the papers he references where I can and have time. I have also looked at many other sources- rejecting anything that is not a reputable source. I am sure that statins have a real role in treating the CAD, (eg stabilising things etc) but to be on them for life ?? There I have my doubts. Anyway, its not a one way decision, as doc has agreed to put me back on them - I only have to ask. So now, I am researching more.

I am asking myself - what should I do to avoid shortening my life? What should I do to avoid other problems related to any of the drugs I take (bearing in mind that some are supposedly for life)? Will statins increase my lifespan? Its complex and there will always be counter-arguments.

All the answers are going to be statistical in nature, so I live with uncertainty.

Henry

[Jack2019 in reply to Henry20]

lowering ldl with statins will challenge your body from head to toe to be able to function properly, if your cholesterol is high but healthy. If your cholesterol is unhealthy, oxidated remnant, a statin will not fix it, lifestyle will. It's not the quantity of LdL that's necessarily a death sentence, it's the quality. Focusing on LDL numbers, in the absence of information on the quality of the cholesterol, is of no use, and just taking a pill to lower it is, in my opinion, not best care. Best care is improving the quality of your lipids, which is the challenge for each individual, and their health care provider. There are many variables in individuals and their lifestyle that may be helping or hindering their bodies metabolism.

[Henry20 in reply to Jack2019]

I am uncertain whether a post of this type is allowed by BHF. I apologise if I have crossed a line; if so, please delete it.

Jack2019

Many thanks for your post.

It's amazing that during the last year, I must have read many articles about CAD and lipids etc and yours is the first mention I remember seeing that mentions "lipid quality". It is something that hadn't occurred to me and gives another line to explore.

Also, its not been mentioned to me in any conversation with doctors.

Earlier this afternoon, I did not know the term existed nor what "lipid quality" meant, and, so far, I have found no clear definition of the term, but it seems it seems to mean the degree to which LDL is prone to aggregation; the less prone the better.

As my LDL quality has never been tested, I now feel that there is a need for further investigation and raising queries.

Eg. Do those providing treatment believe the concept discussed in this paper (below) is valid, and if not, why not? I certainly don't want to be chasing a topic that has been shown to be a red herring. Are there counter-factual papers? How new is this topic?

A quick search has thrown up a couple of papers on the topic - one in particular states (this from 14 July 2018)

"In summary, aggregation-prone LDL was found to predict death from cardiovascular causes independent of conventional atherosclerosis risk factors. Importantly, prior and current data indicate that aggregated LDL has the potential to promote multiple steps along the atherogenic pathway from LDL retention to maladaptive responses that include initiation and growth of atherosclerotic lesions, plaque destabilization, and plaque rupture. Any treatment that induces a favourable change in LDL lipid composition offers a means to attenuate LDL aggregation within the arterial wall and its deleterious consequences. These results emphasize the importance of LDL quality in human ASCVD. Moreover, measurement of the susceptibility of LDL to aggregate may serve as a predictive biomarker for the identification of patients at significant residual or unrecognized risk of cardiovascular morbidity and mortality and who might benefit from personalised, targeted interventions"

from

European Heart Journal, Volume 39, Issue 27, 14 July 2018, Pages 2562–2573, doi.org/10.1093/eurheartj/e...

It is also necessary to note that they do show a conflict of interest at the end of the article See academic.oup.com/eurheartj/...

I wonder what others have found on this topic?

Thanks

Henry

[Henry20]

I had a couple of stents put in just a year ago. (No HA). After, I had all sorts of pains, mainly in chest, but occasionally in my legs. Usually that was just after being active, probably too active. I did go back and see my doctor to query whether or not this was normal or if it could be indicative of something important (concerned about reaction to all the new drugs or that the stents had not stayed in place). Anyway, I got a lot of reassurance and was told to take it easy for at least a month. May I suggest just asking your doctor, it saves the worry. (After a time, the pains did lessen and go). I guess we all need to learn to listen to what our body is telling us and get used to some new signals. I find it useful to just look here and read about other people's experiences.

Good luck, I hope you can get peace of mind that, actually, all is OK.

Henry

[MichaelJH Heart Star]

A friend of mine developed restless leg syndrome. There may be a link between restless legs and cardio issues but yet to be proven. There can be simple causes like anemia or more complex ones like electrolyte issues (have your U's & E's been checked). So start with getting your bloods done. Coffee, alcohol, chocolate and smoking can all worsen the symptoms. He was eventually prescribed low dose Gabapentin as it was interfering with his and his wife's sleep.

[Cutekitten]

Thanks for your comments, the problem seems to be subsiding but I will certainly keep this in mind