hey everyone, I’m new to the BHF forum. I’m 51 years old and recently (3 weeks ago) I went to my local A&E and was advised I’d had a heart attack. This was a complete shock to me and one that I’m still trying to process.
Whilst at the hospital I also had an angiogram which was unfortunately unccessfull and they weren’t able to fit a stent in the blocked artery. I’ve been discharged from hospital now for 2 weeks and I’m struggling. This is why I wanted to come and join this forum to get some guidance, advice and hear other people’s experiences.
Every day since being at home, I’m having multiple panic attacks and feeling anxious, the fear of having another heart attack, the fear of dying, the fear of not being around for my partner, family and friends. I’m not sure if the medications I’m now on due to the heart attack are also having an affect on me, I feel nauseous, shaky, stomach aches, and more recently trouble sleeping, is this normal after a heart attack?
I start my cardiac rehabilitation in about 3 weeks, which I’m hoping will help. I’m also having therapy to help with my mental health and my GP recently increased my dose of Bisoprolol from 2.5mg to 3.75mg to try and help with the panic attacks (which as yet don’t seem to be working).
I feel like both the physical and mental feelings I’m getting are starting to consume my days and are definite triggers to me having a panic/anxiety attack.
I’d really appreciate any advice or confirmation that these are normal feeling, emotions and reactions after having a recent heart attack.
Thanks. Marty
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Since they did not call for a bypass , likely you don’t have other severe blockages . And since they must have put you on statins blood thinners etc , there should much less danger of heart attacks
Taking meds religiously , being active to the extent they advise in rehab and following a whole plants only diet should ward off future troubles
People live with heart disease for years . Don’t worry .
thank you Pundit999 it’s so nice and reassuring to read responses like this.
Yes I’m on a range of tablets, statins, ramipril, aspirin, diabetic medication (type 2 diabetes), bisoprolol, eplerenone and ticagrelor, all of which I know will help me.
and all of which medications can have side effects. Talk to your GP. After my Heart attack, 6 years ago I had problems with almost everything and they could all be changed. Trust me they wouldn't have let you go home if they thought you were at serious risk of another one.
I am so sorry for what you are going through. And I can tell you that I relate to every single feeling you are having. it is like being on a constant emotional rollercoaster ride. The feeling that you wish you could just step off it for even 10 minutes. I have had lots of ups and downs over the past 3 years and my journey is still going on but for all of those anxious and scary feelings i keep "fighting" ☺️. I used my experience as a wake up call and have lost 5 stone and walk 2 and a half to 3 miles every single day ( when I started I could not get to the end of my road and it is not a long road!!) I ask lots of questions, to my doctor, my cardiology team, to BHF, to the cardiac nurses. Often what we are scared of is the unknown so please don't be afraid to ask the questions. You have been through something immensely traumatic and you are just trying to get through one day at a time. Your feelings are perfectly normal, be proud of sharing your feelings and I hope it helps to know you are not alone. Take care
Thank you so much Knavesmire27, reading your story and getting that reassurance that this is all normal after a HA is so reassuring and thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my post.
I think once I begin my cardiac rehab it will hopefully give me something to focus on rather than focusing on what could or might happen.
If you can concentrate on the spring sunshine/petting your dog/gently digging the garden plus walking a little each day, then you should feel less traumatised.
Maybe another heart incident will happen, but your extreme anxiety is likely to be your worst enemy.
I had open heart surgery five years ago and I am now 100% recovered. And you are 25 years younger than me, which will be a big plus for you.
My 'anti-anxiety' mix is propranolol 40mg (up to three times daily if needed) and my GTN spray,I also keep additional (300mg) aspirin just in case symptoms escalate as well as simultaneously calling 999.
I'm still waiting for my CR so can't comment on the success of that at the moment sorry.
I can relate to everything I had a HA and a OOHCA 12 weeks ago 1 stent fitted then discharged from hospital after 4 days I have completed cardio rehab now I get days where my anxiety is through the roof like it is now it's five to one in the morning I am sitting here having a panic attack because I have a had a niggly pain I know I am OK as my therapist has told me but after going through what we have been through it's no wonder we are hyper aware of every ache or pain the meds we are taking are helping us things will get better it's early days everyone on this forum are really kind and helpful take care 🥰
I'm sorry to hear about your heart attack and the distressing - but quite normal - anxiety you're now experiencing.
A chat with your cardiac rehab nurses will probably set your mind at rest. You don't have to wait to the rehab to start, you can call them now. In my experience they will be very keen to help.
On the subject of medication, bisoprolol (as far as I know) is prescribed to protect your heart. It doesn't help with anxiety. Propranolol does help with anxiety. It stopped my big panic attacks immediately.
Finally, may I reassure you that you will feel better both physically and mentally in time. Trust the medical people. If they say all you need is a few tablets and some rehab, you're not in immediate danger.
Hello Harrim8All I want to add to the previous comments above is that I too can totally relate to how you are currently feeling. I think all of us on here, in our own way have been through very similar if not the same anxieties.
However, like us all, you've probably had a bit of a wake up call and have been given notice to make necessary life style changes to help protect your heart, which the medications are also doing.
Also, in my experience being offered Cardac Rehabilitation so soon will be a game changer in terms of reassurance, advice and support.
Please let us know how you get on and hopefully soon you will get that angioplasty and stent which will also help to alleviate things.
It is very early days on your journey to improved health. It may be helpful for you to add in some cognitive behavioural techniques too, i.e. Mindfulness or distraction tools- there are a lot of these on line.
Dear Harrim, I had a STEMI, severe cardiac arrest and a Stent fitted last April, just a few weeks after my 59th birthday. I felt exactly the same as you, I mourned the person I no longer was, worrying what my life expectancy now was and thinking every niggly pain in my chest was another HA and I felt guilty for all the upset it had caused for my family. The cardiac rehab team offered me Talking Therapy. This can be done in group sessions (on TEAMS) which I did last summer and found it really good for helping me to cope mentally and accept the new me. At Xmas I then started to dwell a lot on the cardiac arrest itself and I realised I’d not yet fully processed the event (PTSD), so I referred myself back to the Talking Therapy team and after a 2 month wait I had my first one to one session with a counsellor last Friday. So, it’s definitely worth you trying to get on your local Talking Therapy waiting list now (hopefully they will have one in your area). xx
Hi AngedeLac, thank you for responding and the Talking Therapy team sounds like a great idea, as when I talk about the HA with my friends and family it does make me feel a little better.
Hi Harrim8. Im 55, had a HA & stents fitted 10 weeks ago & had all the feelings you are having & im still getting them but not as bad as they were, hang on in there because it does get better, this group was amazing when i first came on here it was reassuring to know that these feelings are normal & that we are not alone. We have to remember we have been through a massive trauma & then have to adapt to a whole new lifestyle it is bound to affect us mentally, also all the new medications that our bodies have to get used to will have an impact also, just take things easy & go at your own pace, there is no right or wrong way of recovering as we are all different & cope in different ways, i increased my antidepressant after my HA which has helped as like yourself the panic attacks were so bad, im getting out a bit more now as ive been too scared to go anywhere but honestly it does help just going for a walk & meeting up with friends for a coffee, you will be ok just give yourself time😊
Some great advice here and thank you for sharing with me your story. I’m so pleased I joined this forum to be able to discuss how I’m feeling with other people who have been through the same. Thank you.
Marty, your feelings are normal. You have to rebuild confidence in your body. That will come once you start rehab. Please rest assured things will improve quickly if you listen and actively work to improve daily. Good luck.
Hi Harrim. I’m sure what you are feeling is very common. I was diagnosed with AFib 5 months ago and have exactly the same issue as you are experiencing, it has been a very difficult experience.
I was put on Bisoprolol 1.25 but I feel they have exacerbated the anxiety , sleep deprivation and stomach issues and at the moment am struggling to wean off of them . They do agree with some people but others can’t tolerate them, unfortunately I am in the latter category, they don’t suit me at all.
I know a heart attack is very different to AFib but the physiological effects have been the same and I do totally understand how you are feeling.
Panic attacks are normal but Cardiac Rehab will help. I was given a bombshell 1 year after my 'Heart Attack' in Sept 23. My new cardiologist in August 24 booked me in for an MRI and the results came back that I'd never had a heart attack in the first place. I still get chest pain so imagine what that does for ones mental state.
thanks for the response EdtheDead. Wow! That’s crazy! So you never had a heart attack at all but were treated for a full year as though you’d had one through medications!
They had me on everything conceivable for no good reason. Trouble Is, they don't seem interested in finding out what is still causing me chest pain. It's like they've ruled out Cardiac reasons so now your on your own. Panic attacks are now regular if I get chest discomfort.
Sorry to jump in, but I am stunned by your story, this sounds awful, and am thinking surely HA is something after the event itself clear you did have one or not.
I am so sorry to hear your story and totally get if your brain is fried trying to make sense of anything now
It sent me into a mess. After being on Meds for 6 months I saw a Cardiologist on the day we were moving house 90 miles away. He cast the first doubt. When I finally got to see my new cardiologist with the new Health Authority he booked me in immediately for a Cardiac Viability MRI. Something they should have done in Scarbro' in the first place. Scarbro' did pack my off to Hull for an Angiogram and no stent required as no blockage. That should have been the first clue. The results of the MRI were damning of my original diagnosis. So here I am, still suffering chest pain and now no one seems to be interested in finding out what exactly is causing it. I'm afraid my faith in the NHS has taken a severe battering.
Hi, firstly sorry to hear about your recent HA. Believe me you are not alone, I think most on this forum can associate with your feelings and fears. I'm confused in your post you mentioned your GP increased your Bisoprolol for your panic attacks. Bisoprolol is a beta blocker medicine used to treat high blood pressure (hypertension) and heart failure. If you have high blood pressure, taking bisoprolol helps prevent future heart disease, heart attacks and strokes. Bisoprolol is also used to prevent chest pain caused by angina. Are you sure that's the reason it was increased. (For panic attack). It's so very easy to get confused with the cocktail of drugs we can end up on. Take each day a step at a time. You've received some excellent replies. You will get there.🤗
Hi Whiteghost, thanks for your reply. Yes, when I went to my GP earlier this week I told him about the panic attacks and that I’d had them every day since been discharged from the hospital (about 2 weeks ago). He said to me rather than prescribing you more medication, I’ll increase the dosage of Bisoprolo that I am on (2.5mg) by another 1.25mg to slow down your heart rate which he advised might help with the physical side of the panic attacks. He has prescribed them for 28 days only and he said let’s see how you go and if it helps. He did say that if the extra dosage didn’t work for me there are other medications he can consider to help with the panic attacks.
Hi, Bisoprolol as sorted my irregular heartbeat out which went undiagnosed for many year's, when GP sent me to A&E I thought oh no, just give medication " but had chest x-ray and tests put on 5mg now 7.5mg and that's my maintenance dose, best thing that happened for hospital consultant to put me on this 👌O
Hi, thank you for your reply, I was a bit confused. It sounds like you are in good hands with your GP. In the meantime try and relax, let the health professionals do there magic. You will get there. Remember all the people on this forum have experienced some kind of heart issues, some many years ago, and have all still got a pulse, and living our lives as best as we can. Take care 🤗
I'm 72, I had a heart attack in May 23, 2 stents within a week of my HA but then a further issue was found and at four and a bit weeks post HA I had a single bypass and a replacement aortic valve (tissue). I'm on a number of drugs (Aspirin, Carvedilol, Ezetimibe, Felodipine, Lansoprazole, Losartan and Rosuvastatin). I was on Ticagrelor for a year after surgery. Stopping Ticagrelor was very welcome.
I did 9 weeks rehab (long story) and, after consulting with them, started doing parkrun on a Saturday morning, my first one exactly 3 months post surgery, I've done 59 now. It's a 5k walk/jog/run. My pace is more of a jog/run pace. I'm now at an age category of around 46% which means I take roughly twice as long to get round as the age category world record holder would take! I still do a cardiac circuit class even now and consider the small fee the class leader charges to be a worthwhile 'insurance' payment as I can exercise hard in a safe environment.
Whilst we are all different I certainly had some issues sleeping but I suspect part of that was down to being used to hospital routine after 5 weeks incarceration and being woken every 4 hours for BP readings etc.
I was on 1.25mg Bisoprolol but I had side effects affecting my vision so switched to Carvedilol.
I guess we all worry a bit if we get the odd twinge in the chest, my pecs played up with some quite sharp pain for 15 months or so post surgery, cardiac circuits have altered that especially after increasing the weights (I doubled them) used in the non cardiac parts. I also hurt myself recently by leaning awkwardly in a chair, something went pop at the bottom of my sternum (boy did it hurt at the time) and everything has settled since, even a sore spot where it went pop has disappeared.
What drove me to pushing myself harder physically post HA compared to before? I was told in hospital that I'd only get back to 2/3rds to 3/4's of my pre-surgery fitness and I was utterly unable nor prepared to accept that level of inactivity, I'm now at a level I was at 15 years ago. Other than, at times, getting quite a bit more tired than I used to I now lead a totally normal life albeit with a healthier diet and minimal consumption of alcohol (I'm a member of CAMRA).
Hi Survivor1952, thank you so much for sharing your amazing and inspiring story, it really is reassuring to hr that although you’ve been in a journey, you have come out the other end in a much better place. I wish you all the very best with your health in the future and hope to be in a much better place myself soon. Thank you.
Why is there a desire to push yourself harder than before? Whilst fitness is good for heart health and cardiovascular system, some studies have shown that pushing yourself too hard frequently is not so good for the heart after all. It is all well and good breaking personal records, but at the same time the body is different now.
Because I was unfit before, it is a desire to be as fit as I can be for my age, not to sit around and vegetate like, it seems, most of the population judging by their size/weight.
After all the heart is only a muscle and, if not regularly exercised, muscles atrophy. It’s not as if I’m exercising for hours at a time every day, it’s twice a week. I eat properly too which many people do not do.
they couldn’t do my stent and I had to have a quadruple bypass . If they haven’t bypass or done any other intervention and recommend cardiac rehabilitation I would just get on and do it . The exercises will help you regain your confidence and they are good for your heart plus you meet people in the same or similar situation as you .
Ps I did mine a year ago and I now go to the gym 3 times a week and swim and do Aquafit .
Hi JaneBrown55, thank you for your reply. They tried to do a stent but because of the position of the artery that’s blocked, they were unable to get a balloon in to expand the vessel and the surgeon said he didn’t want to keep trying as it could cause more damange. He did say though that although it’s quite a thick artery that is blocked, it’s not my main artery and my other arteries seem ok (thankfully) so he advised that with some lifestyle changes (stopping smoking, eating healthier etc) and taking the medications I should be fine. I’ve not had a cigarette in over 3 weeks since I was admitted to hospital and over a period of 5 weeks I’ve lost just over 2 stone in weight, so I’m already making the changes. I’m waiting to have my initial call with the Cardiac Rehabilitation team in 3 weeks before I hope they put a plan in place for me to start an exercise plan.
Good news it’s only one artery . Did they do an echo ? What is your EF now? If they didn’t tell you I suggest you ask . The cardio rehabilitation team should have all that information and should start you on an exercise plan . If they don t offer it ask , I’ve found from experience that unfortunately if you don’t ask u don’t get . Well done on the weight loss and stopping smoking. You are doing great .
Hi Marty, as you can see from the replies you are not alone in feeling this way, in fact I think its quite normal to have these feelings after the shock of a heart attack, in my experience the anxiety will dissipate as time passes and you realise that you are surviving. A good move is to get on the cardiac rehab, apart from the physical advantage you will get, meeting and talking with other people in the same position should help in coming to terms with it as you see others getting on with their lives in spite of heart related problems. My best wishes for your recovery.
Hi Gfern, thank you for your reply. I’m hoping to start my cardiac rehabilitation in around 2-3 weeks, so hopefully as you say, this will help.
You’re right, it seems like what I’m experiencing is quite normal after a HA based on the comments that people have posted in response to my post, this is reassuring to read. Thank you.
Hi Harrim, I am sorry what you had to go through but at such a relatively young age , you have a lot to live for. I am glad you are having therapy for your anxiety but I am a bit surprised and have a query about Bisoprolol which you are having at higher dose. I would like you to contact your G.P. whether Bisoprolol is specifically meant for your temporary anxiety . As far I know this medication is for high blood pressure, irregularheart beat and to protect the heart. Perhaps he can prescribe something more specific for your mental health. Hope this small advice helps. Regards.
Thank you for your advice and I am hoping to make an appointment with my GP this week to discuss the Bisoporolol situation. He did say that it should help with the panic attacks and at the same time help my heart becuase I remember him saying that we can benefit both at the same time. I do feel that I need something specifically for the panic attacks though as the increased dosage of Bisoporolol isn’t helping at all with the panic attacks.
Hi, 2 weeks post HA, SCA and stent. It's really helping me getting out of the house every day for a short walk. It makes me feel a bit more normal and not so isolated. I'm also working through the 'My Heart Manual' that was given to me by the rehab nurse prior to leaving hospital and I've found that really useful.
The more normal things I do the better I feel in myself and the more confident I feel in my heart. I still have sternum discomfort from CPR, and lifting anything or sudden movement is best avoided (found out accidentally). I still have moments of sheer panic, but I'm trying to be kind to myself and do something rewarding each day (no matter how small).
hi Clack53, thanks for your reply. Seems like you’re doing the right things to take your mind off the HA, I’ve been discharged now for just over 2 weeks since having my HA and I’m going up and downstairs to the toilet a few times per day, washing up pots, drying pots, walking around the house and the garden, I’ve even been out to the shops three times, although I do find that brings on a panic attack. I’ll be honest, I’m scared to go anywhere on my own at the moment but I think that’s due to the panic attacks and anxiety I’m currently having everyday.
The first few times I went out on my own I was the same; absolutely terrified. The first time I was even moving really slowly as I thought if I moved too quickly I'd have another HA. I was also hyperaware of every single pain. But I remembered to breathe in and out slowly and tried to focus on that while carrying on for a few extra steps.
I've had a few periods over the years where I've had terrible panic attacks and anxiety, I think due to a number of reasons. I know how frightening it can be. On the rehab thing they gave me at the hospital there are some guided relaxations that I've been doing which has helped since coming home. Prior to my HA, I've used the guided meditations on Insight Timer, I would really recommend them for helping to reduce your anxiety levels. But remember it's completely natural to be feeling afraid, you (we) have been through a really big thing and it does take time to start to feel normal again.
I'm feeling quite good about myself today, I walked 2.4km with an average pace of 6km/hr. I know this isn't a lot for most people, but for me it's a huge achievement and I certainly didn't think I would be able to do it when I got home from hospital.
hi Clack53, what great advice and I’m currently downloading the Insight Timer app as I type, thank you for the recommendation.
If you don’t mind me asking, how long after you returned home from your HA did you leave it before going for a walk on your own? I’ve been out of hospital now for just over 2 weeks and apart from walking around the house, the garden and a couple of trips with my partner to the local supermarket, that’s it. Any advice would be appreciated, thanks.
I went out the next morning. Although I think I only walked 284 steps and I was very pleased when I got back home. I took my phone in case I got into difficulties, I had my GTN spray in case I needed it.
I know exactly how many steps I did because in the rehab book you keep a note of what you do, so that you can see how much you improve (see attached picture) - which helps me.
thanks for sharing and I can’t wait to start my cardiac rehab, I’ve still got about 3 weeks before my initial meeting but definitely looking forward to it.
I had a "mild" heart attack when I was 46. I'm 62 now. (wow, time flies!). Long story, short. It took months (or more) to accept. But I had one cardiologist tell me his job was to lessen my fear and go lead my life. So I've been doing that. I try to exercise regularly and I've found that following a diabetic diet more or less allows me to enjoy most foods I like without sacrificing the joy of food . Each situation is different, but like others have said take it one day at a time, take your meds, listen to the professionals and yourself, too!
Hi JPS50, thanks for your reply. This is very true, each situation is different however it’s great to read that you have come through your HA at the other side. That’s exactly what I’m going to try and do, take one day at a time and be kind to myself. I’m also a diabetic (type 2) and have changed the type of food I’m now putting into my body, I also have high cholesterol and blood pressure although the meds I’m now on seem to be really helping with the high blood pressure and I’m being careful about what types of food can cause cholesterol although I’m also on 80mg statins each day too.
For me, the issue I have is these constant anxiety and panic attacks, but I’m hoping after arranging an appointment to see my GP again they will be able to help me with this. Thanks.
Hi Harrim, to add to the voices here, I too suffered a serious HA 6 months ago, the day after my 53rd birthday, at which time the intervention included fitting a stent to clear a total blockage. 100% a shock, no signposts and turned my life upside down. I have subsequently found that I have a very high Lipoprotein(a) count that’s conspires with my LDL cholesterol to block my arteries. However, the biggest challenge I faced was the mental one - I have a young dependent family and run a busy business, and my sudden fragility, impotence and reliance on others was existential. I am only partway through my journey with both ups and downs, but it is life changing and that can be positive!
Some shared experience relating to points raised above:
1. Take time to recover and re-centre. Mentally it’s a lot to take in and your heart needs time too. In retrospect I returned to work far too early, it had taken me 3 months to physically feel normal again;
2. Cardio Rehab was excellent: it builds confidence in your capability, you will realise you are more capable than you think and I am certain it can’t come soon enough as it will help your mental state as much as the physical. They will discuss in great detail your medication needs and requirements, tweaking where necessary. Above all else you will be within a group of diverse people and their journey will give you reassurance and strength;
3. Trust the medication - you are safer today than prior to your HA, the meds will reduce all the vitals to ensure you physically minimise the circumstances that promoted your HA. Anxiety is perfectly normal, when suddenly faced with your own mortality it is an absolutely personal crisis that others, even those closest, will find difficult to relate. FYI, my initial meds prescribed by the hospital cardio team didn’t suit me, I needed to reduce my Ramipril and (especially) Bisoprolol to feel closer to normal.
4. Life wont be exactly the same, but the fear will subside with the passage of time. Make sure you address and optimise all your personal ‘modifiable’ elements e.g. - diet, sleep, alcohol, exercise, hydration, and try and remove stressors from life: I thought I was good at managing stress but have realised it is absolutely no good for the body, and like so many other factors, after hitting the age of 50 you need a different mind set, we are just not as robust as we remember and assume.
You will never be as focused and incentivised to make change as now, trust me complacency does creep back when some normality returns, so take your time to audit your life and routine if you can.
You make some really valid points in your response and thank you for your suggestions and wisdom having gone through having a HA very recently yourself.
You’re right, the cardio rehab can’t come around quickly enough, I do genuinely believe this will help me a great deal, both physically and mentally, I should start my rehab in about 3 weeks.
Do you mind me asking, what dosage of Bisoprolol you were on? I’m currently on 3.75mg per day, my GP increased this on Wednesday to try and help with my panic attacks, although some members have said that these are for reducing blood pressure and to protect the heart rather than help with panic attacks, I’m going to contact my GP again next week and explain that the increased dosage isn’t helping with the panic attacks.
Bisoprolol: started at 5mg once a day, but this was making me light headed and ‘detached’. This was halved to 2.5mg which seems to suit me.
I am no expert but meds mask the root cause of anxiety which is about fear, uncertainty and lack of control, all of which you should deal with head-on - counselling and facing these will help, as will having a plan, understanding your condition and what you can do to help: taking control. Apologies, that’s easy for me to say I know, especially as I understand the on-set and distress it causes as my partner has suffered from acute anxiety, however counselling and CBT helped her to manage without reliance on medication, it gives you back control too.
The meds part is the most difficult aspect for me, it has had side effects such as sending my blood glucose to very high pre-diabetic levels even though I am saintly with sugar and carbs/starches. This means I am having to monitor my diet religiously which is taxing.
I would say the experience has helped me engage a new regime that is making me healthier and fitter than I have been for years, I found that leading a moderate lifestyle was actually killing me. It’s important to find positives and congratulate yourself on the changes at what is otherwise a challenging moment in life, I totally have sympathy with the emotional side of things - I was quite low for days and got very upset in my private moments dwelling on how things would never be the same, and what coudl happen, but I feel better about the future than I did before it happened so celebrate the progress and changes. I am reassured that there are thousands of people living fulfilling lives years after much more serious episodes than mine.
Lastly, YouTube has loads of useful information if you search, there’s much greater information in more digestible formats than I have found through NHS sources. This forum is also very useful.👍
Hi Marty. Sorry to hear you have been in the wars and it is only natural you are feeling anxious. I also have a blocked artery that cannot be stented or bipassed. This terrified me but I now realise I can still do pretty much anything I want and the pills will keep me going. I’m in Birmingham , no idea where you are but if you ever wanted to go for coffee and a chat I’d be up for it
thank you and yes you’re right there are some great heart medications around now compared to what there was. Does your family have a history of heart problems? I know on my dad’s side there was a history of heart issues.
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. Each situation is different, but like others have said take it one day at a time, take your meds, listen to the professionals and yourself, too!
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