The Past Is Closer Than You'd Think...

I thought...and me thinking isn't good...not good at all...that while I'm writing the family history I'd have a timeline as well...you know the sort of thing...who was on the throne and major events of the times.

Don't know that anyone will actually be interested enough to read it but one never knows and it gives me something to do...

One collection of records which I'm both alarmed about and fascinated by, are the numerous court records which survive from the various Assizes' around the country...here I mean England rather than Ireland...

So when I came across some family members who lived in the latter part of the 1700's I looked to see which crimes held the death penalty and whether the punishments were held in public...

Those cousins several times removed could...had they wished to...gone to watch the burning at the stake of a Catherine aka Christian Murphy in 1789...she was the last woman to be burned to death...not for Witchcraft but for counterfeiting coins. Her husband, who was also found guilty of the same offence was hanged on the same day. Catherine had to walk past him and their eight friends before she reached her pile of faggots...

The executioner strangled her first...before he set the fire...so she was well and truly dead before the flames consumed her.

The laws were changed in 1790 whereby burning as a form of execution was disallowed.

Something which really surprised me was that the last public hanging of a woman took place in 1868...this was Frances Kidder, who was found guilty of drowning her eleven year old stepdaughter in a water filled ditch...the event was well attended by the general public.

Unfortunately for Frances, her hangman was notorious for bodging his hangings...he was frequently seen pulling on his victims legs and even standing on their shoulders to hasten their deaths...his name was William Calcraft and he used what was known as 'the short drop'...not long enough to break the neck of his victims but instead resulted in them strangling slowly. The worst of it is that he did it on purpose.

In 1868 my Great Grandfather had received his Masters Certificate for his own ship...he sailed back and forth to the West Coast of Africa...my Mother could recall that he was a tall, well-built man with red hair and a long red beard. He had many children...one of whom was born in 1868 and became a priest, who is buried in Glasnevin along with some of his peers...it was written in the newspapers of the times that his funeral stopped all the traffic in the centre of Dublin.

It puts the last public hanging into some sort of perspective doesn't it, when you can read about a Great Uncle who was born in the same year...and who didn't die until the 1910's. Great Grandfather was born around 1845...so his Grandparents, or certainly his Great Grand Parents were alive when the last burning at the stake occurred...

They'd have also seen people hanging in gibbets...that was so commonplace as to be normal...mostly the body of the hanged person was passed on to a local anatomy school but sometimes, almost as an extra punishment, the deceased would be hung up in a iron cage...suspended in the air until their bodies had rotted. It was supposed to be a deterrent to wrong doers but didn't appear to work...

That lives on in narrow laneways called Gibbet Lane or a rise in the ground as Gibbet Hill...

Different nowadays when murderers are given their own cells and television and nice jobs to do during the day...I read of one man who has become a bee-keeper while he serves out his sentence for battering his wife...

[Hidden]

Lovely story vashti. I think most criminals today have to share cells in vastly overcrowded cells. I don't think they generally have a tv in their cells. And I certainly wouldn't want to do their 'nice' jobs which include laundry or kitchen work! Would you? And imagine the lack of freedom to even make basic choices on what time to get up, go to bed, what to eat etc. as well as being locked up and not allowed outside the walls of the prison. I would hate that. x

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

I was thinking more of those who do have the chance to study for a degree...and learn about bee-keeping...not those who live in over-crowded conditions...it does sometimes seem to be the worse the crime you commit, the more choices you have once in prison...not a place I'd care to be, but then I'm a law abiding sort of a person...usually.

[pergola]

Good to see you, Vashti. Thought you had done a runner. It is my intention to read or reread all your writings and print them off. I see you raise your eyebrows BUT I have a new printer.

[Hidden in reply to pergola]

Nowhere to run to Pergola...lol

Ooo...new printer sounds excellent ...don't go and break it with all my stuff for goodness sake...!

[Hidden]

I'm Britain prisoners have access to tv, music and x box and such. Some have all that in their cells. It's so wrong. Compared to American prisoner where they are updated like prisoners.

I watched a programme called back to borstal. They said it was easier in prison than a set up borstal for tv.

I love hearing about history. I could listen to my Nan for hours. She was brought up in liverpool and had great stories, some about the war, others about her dad who was a character.

I shouldn't have been here. If worked on the ships and sometimes snook home if the ship wasn't leaving till the morning to glue a decent bed

One night his wife woke him and said it sounds like his ship was leaving, he said it was too early and went back to sleep. When he got to the dock it was his ship. The ship is rather well known, the Lusitania. That was the final time it left Liverpool!

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Yeah such a great life it must be! It's a wonder everyone doesn't break the law to get a much better standard of living.

[Nikkers in reply to Hidden]

Some do just to get back "inside" because it's better than sleeping on the streets or hostels. - especially at times like Christmas! There's an "open" prison not far from here and the inmates are allowed to do almost anything they want. They can go into the nearest town and some even have employment in the public sector. There's a fully equipped gym', games room, arts and crafts shop and pool.

How that can be considered "punishment" I fail to understand? Not suprising that the crime rate is so high, there's nothing to fear anymore. You can even commit murder if you want to, as long as you're prepared to do the "time" for it, because it won't be for long anyway seeing as the law's idea of "life" is only a few short years (even less if you behave.) What a ridiculous system!

Come back Henry (VIII) all is forgiven - chop their heads off! lol

[Hidden in reply to Nikkers]

The prison not far from us has houses in the grounds...originally for political prisoners who refused to mix with the common yoicks...now they're for the well-behaved sort...they do their own cooking etc.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

How incredibly lucky was that!

[snappy1]

Welcome back

[Hidden in reply to snappy1]

Thank you snappy!

[jimmyw123]

just reading your post vashti, always interesting,,, yes some strange stories of long ago,,,, there was one of "johnny jouk the gibbet" , This is a reasonably common saying in scotland meaning" you've dodged being in trouble", in the 1750,s ,, it is alleged that johnny , who was to be hanged, with another two men

,But as the story goes, the previous hangman died trying out his new device So there was no hangman,,, so the bold johnny said he would do it,,, for a free pardon,, Then johnny got the job, hung the other two, got the free pardon, then went on to hang many more, ,, now whether

this is true or not i don't know,, but i know the saying "johnny jouk the

gibbet " is still a saying used today,,, " jouk" a scottish word meaning

"dodge" strange these old stories

anyway, the prisoners of today, seem to have everything going for them,, no wonder there is so much crime,,, they've no need to worry that they've ran out of bread or sugar etc...no everything is at hand for them,, great innit!!!

very interesting great reading vashti,,, jimmy xxx

[Hidden in reply to jimmyw123]

liked the story of 'Johnny jouk the gibbet'...isn't it amazing how long these phrases and sayings have been in use.

[jimmyw123 in reply to Hidden]

it was more or less passing thoughts, when mentioning the "gibbet" vashti

but it is amazing how these old phrases or sayings are often mentioned , when we know little of what they mean,,

anway vashti, thanks again for a good read,, kindest thoughts jimmy xxx

[Kathygwanny]

Great to see you back.

[Hidden in reply to Kathygwanny]

Thank you Kathy!

[bulpit]

Morning Vashti, What a colourful past you have,so very interesting, How on earth did the couple manage to forge coins, and what a dreadful punishment. I would think your grandfather looked like a pirate, quite something to have achieved a Masters Cerificate and have his own ship.Very best wishes, Bulpit

[Hidden in reply to bulpit]

And he was only twenty-six...

Coins of small value were melted down and then re-cast as coinage worth much more...it would appear it was a relatively common crime...the punishment when caught...which they usually were...doesn't seem to have put people off the risk.

[jeanielee]

Absolutely fascinating. I wish we had been taught some of this in History classe at school I might have paid more attention.

[Hidden in reply to jeanielee]

So do I Jeanie actually....our history was mostly learning dates by rote...lol

[Hidden]

What most do not realize is the lack of freedom in closed prisons is the ultimate punishment. I have mixed memories of when I was doing my final place in young offenders prisons the thing that appalled me the most was the morning slop out and the crowded conditions they existed in this was still in the 70's pre prison reform and before the Strangeways riots. You peed or pood in the same bucket you shared with 2 other cell mates and shared the same jug of water as you got an allowance of one jug of hot water a day you more or less had to share it or go unwashed.

Now they have it easy newer prisons are being built all with single person cells which have an ensuite shower room and toilet. These are often run now by private companies and things like radio or television are something that can be earned but as much as they are easy to get these things you can also loose them, very much on the lines of American prisons now. And yet as fast as we build more modern prisons we see the population of them increasing according to the Howard League.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Conditions were quite appalling years ago weren't they...especially the need for slopping out every morning...but it does seem to have gone too far with privatisation.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

It has Vashti and it is the minority of private prisons that have the number of riots at the moment by the way I failed to make myself clear my time behind bars was part of my training to become a forensic social worker some see the word forensic and think of the morgue but not always so it is a title loosely given to people of different disciplines who work very closely with the Police and Justice systems. I was on the whole a very interesting and worthwhile career working along with the courts, police and probation services. Some of my reports held the power over whether a person walked free from court or served a custodial sentence not always a pleasant thing to live with was such power.