Potassium and Magnesium

[Harrgem]

Hello all, I was diagnosed with AF the other month (a few days after my 40th, what a lovely gift) and, like everyone else, went down the rabbit hole of doing my own research into it and found many people taking potassium and magnesium supplements. These are many types on the market so I was wondering which is the best "type" to take. I'm from the UK and I only say that because of dufferent branding etc. Thank you all 😀

[CDreamer]

I am sure you will get many recommendations but I suggest you watch the York Cardiology video or the FB page. You cannot do much damage to yourself taking magnesium (unless you have Myasthenia) but you still need to take care as magnesium supplements can enhance BP meds. I use a topical Magnesium spray when needed instead, a sign of lack of magnesium is cramping muscles. Please DO NOT supplement with Potassium - you should get enough from your food if you take a good balanced diet. Potassium should only be taken under doctor’s instructions as it can harm your kidneys. Electrolyte drinks work but you can also make up your own relatively easily and many find this does help with episodes especially when you pee a lot as it’s essential to replace the salts you lose and to keep very well hydrated.

youtu.be/Ckdcr-cp9w8(Not working as expected?)

[Harrgem in reply to CDreamer]

Wow, thank you so much. I'll watch this later and subscribe to his YouTube.

[Lenaropes in reply to CDreamer]

So agree with this info.

[Crumble2]

Hi

I have a deliberately healthy diet so I don’t supplement with potassium. I started taking magnesium glycinate about 3 months ago and my palpitations have reduced hugely and I feel very well. However, I I took the decision to supplement after months of research into which supplement did what and the consequences of each. As mentioned earlier, I watched dr Sanjay Gupta videos on Facebook and YouTube and learned a lot from them. Hope you find the answer for you. 😊

[Harrgem]

Thank you, again some great info!

[secondtry]

Maybe try

jar

[Ppiman]

I would myself avoid supplements and stay with prescribed medicines shown to be needed by blood tests. Of the two you mention, potassium is at least potentially dangerous to take, whereas magnesium is safe. This is because of the way the two are metabolised and excreted, I gather.

In fact, all trace elements are naturally absorbed from the food we eat, except in disease states. There is controversy over the need for vitamin D supplementation, owing to the lack of winter sunshine in the northern hemisphere, needed for its natural bodily production.

If you don't are otherwise healthy, and your blood tests are normal, then a balanced and healthy diet will fully support your body's needs. Anyone one who suggests otherwise is not following accepted science. That is not to say science knows it all, of course it doesn't; but when we play amateur doctors to ourselves and believe in what are often profit-driven and amateur written online sources, we do take risks.

Steve

[lawspear in reply to Ppiman]

True, but the York Cardiology videos on blood magnesium level and the advantages of supplementing your diet, show that this is a more complex issue than might seem.

[Ppiman in reply to lawspear]

I believe York Cardiology to be a privately owned YouTube channel and website run by two cardiologists. The recommendation for magnesium taurate supplements doesn’t seem to be scientifically supported and I notice that the tablets are sold on the website along with several other items and private services.

To my knowledge, no significant or useful anti-arrhythmic activity has even been shown for oral magnesium, even though many studies have been carried out. Its emergency use by infusion in hospital has perhaps been the impetus for the suggestion that taking it orally might be useful, I don’t know. That and its high level of safety (as opposed to potassium, say) have meant it has become popularised by word of mouth and on internet web sites. And yes, now I gather some specialists recommend trying it and some on this forum make great claims for it, along with vitamin D and Coq10.

If supplements are properly made, tested and safe, then they might well be worth trying. Why not? Care is needed though. The melatonin supplement many think helps insomnia, again with no solid science to support the claim, is now coming under suspicion for possible toxicity owing to poor QC, assay and manufacturing techniques.

It’s also true to say, scientifically so, that a healthy diet will provide all the nutrients we need. If people eat unusual, quirky or even perhaps “ultra-processed” diets, then supplements might be helpful. And, yes, it does seem that vitamin D is something different and a requirement for those who avoid the sun or who are older.

Sorry for the long post.

Steve

[lawspear in reply to Ppiman]

Interesting post, thank you, but there is a YC video specifically on the results of a study into the effect of magnesium supplements on ectopics and a further YC video about a study that finds the possible connection. I don't see any products for sale on the York Cardiology website and two cardiologists don't need to sell cheap magnesium supplements to make a living. Sanjay Gupta is very cautious and evidence led.

[Ppiman in reply to lawspear]

I would agree with you regarding those two specialists; and Dr Gupta is an exceptional communicator, too. My comment was more owing to the sense I got that this was somehow an NHS enterprise rather than a private one.

I'm looking forward to seeing the evidence as it's something I have been looking for since my own arrhythmia started back in 2019. I have tried magnesium in various forms with no success and the cardiologist who treated me had nothing good to say for it except that it was harmless and so worth trying.

Steve

[Ppiman in reply to lawspear]

Hi - I've watched the video on the need for magnesium (sold with many other heart-related things on his website, by the way). It would be quite counter-productive, well, wrong, of me to show that there are rather several important points made in this video that seem not to be rooted in good science. The reason I won't is that he is an advocate for helping us know more about our heart troubles, as well as of good food helping us towards good health; and he's wonderful on both of those aspects. If only we did all all educate ourselves and eat properly, keep our weight to a healthy level, then, as he says - genetics and bad luck apart - we would all benefit enormously over our lifetimes. In that respect he is beyond criticism, and I don't want to do so.

But, just to give two examples where I might say that "science" is wanting. We are told that we are, today, in need of oral magnesium supplementation because tea and coffee are diuretics and this causes excessive excretion and depletion of the mineral. But it doesn't. Neither tea nor coffee have much at all in the way of causing diuresis (i.e. an effect on the kidneys and excretion). I'd be shocked if he had proof that what effect they do have was of any health significance, at least for the vast majority. We are also told that antacids reduce magnesium significantly by reducing stomach acidity. And yet many major antacids are magnesium salts… Also, PPI drugs do indeed reduce stomach acid but only in rare case do they significantly magnesium levels, and, when they do, taking oral magnesium will not work because the PPI drugs (in those cases) block its uptake through the gastro-intestinal tract.

And, it must surely be so that if the wide range of things we do with our diets and bodies today - as he claims - gives rise to hypomagnesaemia, to the degree that we need to take a supplement, then we would surely also be lacking in many other crucial nutrients, meaning we would surely all be suffering from a range of disorders. And we are not.

Magnesium, in food, comes mainly as chlorophyll, I guess, or in meats. I still feel that we need to get out into the sunshine, eat better and stay slim, consuming more fruit, nuts, pulses and veg. Then we won't be short of magnesium (or anything else, except, perhaps, vitamin D in the winter months).

Steve

[Auriculaire in reply to Ppiman]

It is extremely difficult to get enough vit D from diet and the only people who have a hope of doing so are those whose traditional diet includes large amounts of oily fish - so not really relevant for people living in the UK where any fish consumption is abysmally low. Even eating oily fish everyday it is still possible to be severely deficient as my own diagnosis showed. Given that it is not possible to make vit D from the sun in the UK between mid Sept and the beginning of April and the further north you live the smaller the window most people end up deficient. As for "science" the scientific research into vit D shows this and also shows clearly the health problems that arise from deficiency. We took our 13 year old granddaughter down to the local lab for a vit D test last week when she was here on holiday- abysmally low level and given the similar lifestyle of her sisters and friends I would expect similar low levels for them too.

As for magnesium it is accepted that the magnesium content of today's fruit and veg is diminished due to intensive farming methods from what it was 100 or even 50 years ago so your contention that a ,"balanced and healthy diet " is all you need is disputable.

I actually believe that your constant posts rubbishing supplementation and telling people to stick to prescribed meds are not just unhelpful but damaging. Sensible well researched supplementation can be very important - for instance would you tell statin users not to bother with Co enzyme Q 10? You really are HMV Pharma on this forum.

[Ppiman in reply to Auriculaire]

You are regularly critical of some of what I write in my posts. But mine, like yours, are an attempt to be helpful and almost only ever given in reply to questions raised by others.

I don’t have any other agenda or motivation except that I have a fascination for health mythology and a strong dislike of the way the internet is being allowed to use faux science to sell products. This is especially so when people are ill, worried and looking for help, yet becoming misled or confused by the misinformation some of the internet contains.

Regarding vitamin D, I only use information from accepted authorities and other recognised scientific agencies. That should satisfy you, surely? I always add that it is a contentious area and is still being researched - quite heavily. It is a genuinely fascinating area. But, anecdotes can be useful but need care. The case you mention of your relative is interesting, surely, and it’s good that you were able to help, but generalisations can’t safely be made from a specific, surely?

With regard to the current levels of nutrients in foods, then there is evidence that in some foods grown in some areas there are reduced levels. I haven’t seen evidence that these lower levels are so low as to lead to malnutrition if a balanced diet is eaten.

If you could show any specific areas where I have given wrong information or where what I say is unhelpful, then please let me know and I will correct or edit my post.

Steve

[Auriculaire in reply to Ppiman]

I would like to know what you regard as recognised scientific agencies and accepted authorities. If by this you mean the likes of the FDA and CDC in America who have an overweaning influence on the regulatory bodies world wide , the EMA ,MHRA or NICE then I would contend that your info is skewed and incomplete as these bodies are all overly influenced by Pharma. As are the medical journals and this problem has been pointed out by former editors of both the BMJ and the NEJM. The world's foremost vit D researcher Micheal Holick would certainly not agree with the advice of NICE. Your fascination for health mythology does not appear to extend to the "cholesterol causes heart disease "hypothesis or indeed any others that contradicting which would stem the flow of money into Pharma coffers. It is not helpful to pooh pooh supplements that many people here have found have made a difference to their symptoms of afib specifically or their general health. I have seen data that large swathes of the UK population have some degree of vit D insufficiency and that this is very high in Black and Asian people. This is not being addressed by current health policy . I would say that your statement about vit D being an unknown for people who avoid the sun or are older is nonsense. It is not an unknown. Older people and those who avoid the sun and do not supplement are generally deficient. There is plenty of data for different countries that show this with abysmally low average levels in the elderly - and in countries where there is available sunshine.

[Ppiman in reply to Auriculaire]

You hold views that I don't agree with on occasion, and they are in this post. There's no point in covering old ground, surely as I have answered them more than once in the past. We'll have to just agree to differ, as "they" say.

Steve

[solarjdo69 in reply to Ppiman]

Ppiman. I have a bridge for sale... I have so many friends and aquaintences who are so wrapped up in the opinions/dictates of the "experts.' These medical folks are trained in a LIMITED way of thinking thanks to the direction of such education which is affected by big Pharma and others.

I had a new left knee installed to replace my "OEM" knee June 16th 2023. My hospital roommate had horrible breathing issues - COPD big time! He came in 1-2 times a month he told me for the past 8 months for a bronchoscomy (suction out the crud in ones lungs) He felt like he had one foot in deaths door. I kept in contact with him encouraging mental imaging of healing and such and did some investigations into COPD natural remedies. I bought a months supply of Tiger Milk mushrooms for him to take 1capsule/day. Well, after about 15 days he said he was feeling pretty good. At the 25th day (approximate) he said he hadn't had a bronchoscomy and didn't feel he needed one and he sounded good. I bought a second one for him and now it's been over 55days and he's still going strong.

1. Relying solely on the "experts" LIMITED knowledge is hazardous to your health.

2. There are many remedies that work but are unproven as there have not been studies or the studies are skewed by big pharma to suppress knowledge of these beneficial substances.

I hope you wake up and smell the hummus.

[Ppiman in reply to solarjdo69]

I have a lot of respect for doctors. I know that to become one, you need top grades in three of maths, chemistry, biology or physics. Those are truly difficult subjects to ace. My son trained as a doctor. It’s clear that you have much to understand about what that means.

But, never mind, because, when push comes to shove, it will be a doctor that steps in to save you.

Steve

[solarjdo69 in reply to Ppiman]

True if I break a bone or some such other issue, but I do not believe AFIB will be what I'll need a DR. for to help me. I DO respect them for what they DO, but there is a LOT they do not know due to the narrow path they are forced into. Fortunately there are DRs., mostly younger that have embraced or are looking into alternative therapies. My COPD friend would have probably died if I hadn't stuck my nose into his business.

Thanks DRs.!!! They basically had no fix or relevant treatment for him and it had been ongoing for over 8 months. Now he has a chance to get out of the care facility and perhaps lead a more normal life.

I just now for the first time in 40 years have a DR. I see semi-annually because my wife said I should consider it. If I'm sick, I'm the DR. I make my own colloidal silver which I use as an antibiotic for our family and pets. I'm prone to pneumonia and get it on occasion. A few sessions with my nebulizer with the silver and bang it's gone.

So I'll go see a DR. if somethings broken which I can't fix myself, EG: broken bones, or some unusual symptoms of which he MAY be able to diagnose and help.

My most recent blood panel - both my new personal DR. and cardiologist said I had some of the most healthy blood they've seen. Why? Because I take herbs and vitamins daily. (Though I'm sure that you'll probably say it's my genetic makeup) Others in my family have worse health than I and my brother died from heart issues at 45.

One other self fix I did when I was at the University of Minnesota. I picked up a case of Plantars worts at a fraternity shower room. Went to a specialist who gave me a cream to gradually peel back the layers of skin until they were small and exposed enough and he would burn or freeze them out. I read that Vitamin "E" in large concentrations might rid me of those. I took 4 - 400IU capsules daily. About 4 days later the smallest ones turned black in the center. After about 2 weeks they had all fallen out including the BIG one which went all the way through from top to bottom of my left big toe. I had some small dents in my feet until my body filled it in and os course y feet were OK again. Called the specialist who discounted what I told him. I threw away the cream and went on with my life. The Dr. didn't want to here that I fixed it without him.

Those Centrum or other multi-vitamins have insufficient dosages of their offerings which will not help much to correct/offset the lack in our system which almost ALL people have due to the Frankenfood system that we have.

It may be better in the UK and EU, but here in America we have essentially Sick Care. Feed the people poor food or the FrankenFood, then get 'em on the back end with procedures, drugs which usually cause more issues causing more drugs to be needed. I feel it is a down word spiral of health. You keep your faith the way you believe and I'll do mine, so far at 68 it's working for me.

[Ppiman in reply to solarjdo69]

I can’t doubt you’ve found some fascinating and interesting things there that have worked and that medics would have discounted. I don’t know about “narrow” in medical training but I get what you mean. I enjoyed reading your ideas. Thank you!

Steve

[solarjdo69 in reply to Ppiman]

Thanks Steve. I see you have a few years on me (2). I read your profile information. Consider taking a tablespoon or two of ORGANIC apple cider vinegar in juice (with the "mother" cloudiness in it. (do NOT take it raw as it will cause burns in esophoghus.) My wife used to get Acid Reflux often and started taking ACV once or twice a week and has it no more. Also, when she took it to start, it always settled down the discomfort after about 20m.

medicalnewstoday.com/articl...

health.clevelandclinic.org/...

hopkinsmedicine.org/health/...

I sometimes take it as a drink. I mix a tablespoon in water with ice and in the heat of summer it to me is actually refreshing. Took a bit of experimentation to get the taste that I like.

A co-worker where I worked a few years ago has type 2 diabetes. He found that taking ACV in water before bedtime reduced his diabetes issues.

How much apple cider vinegar should a diabetic take daily?

For blood sugar management

Interestingly, only a small amount of apple cider vinegar is needed to have these effects. Generally, taking 4 teaspoons (tsp.), or 20 mL, of apple cider vinegar before meals has been shown to significantly reduce blood sugar levels after eating ( 2 , 3 ).

[Qualipop in reply to Auriculaire]

Why is co enzyme Q 10 taken with statins? Never heard of that.

[Auriculaire in reply to Qualipop]

Statins interrupt a metabolic pathway in the liver that manufactures cholesterol. The same pathway also makes other substances that like cholesterol are vital for our well being. One of them is Co enzyme Q 10 that is needed to fuel energy production in every cell of our body. It is particularly important for muscle cells and the heart is our body's most important muscle. The drug companies who make statins knew this and Merck even filed a patent for their first statin to include Co enzyme Q10 but it would have made it more expensive and nobody else was doing this so they dropped it. Most GPs knowledge of how drugs actually work is sketchy to say the least and so they do not know about Q 10 or how the diminished production is a likely cause of the fatigue and muscle pain statins can cause. So they do not recommend it's supplementation. Nor do they tell their patients that taking a statin will reduce their ability to produce vit D from sunshine as the substrate for this is cholesterol in the skin. Do you think the drug company reps are likely to impart this type of information?

[Qualipop in reply to Auriculaire]

Well I definitely knew about Vit D. I've always had to supplement in autumn onwards and now since going on statins in summer too. I rarely get out of the house and boy do I Know when my Vit D is low but I'd really never heard why people took Q10. Thank you.

[Cundara1234]

Super!

Magnezij taurat

[Cundara1234]

Super Magnezij taurat!

👍Super