ROOT CAUSE THEORY: For those of us that have... - AF Association

AF Association
17,808 members21,510 posts

ROOT CAUSE THEORY

Shcldavies
Shcldavies
162 Replies

For those of us that have structurally normal hearts yet are effected by palpitations/tachycardia/fibrillation/flutter/et al, I have been unable to answer the question - is your heart behaving appropriately to the stimulus it gets or is the stimulus normal and your heart acting inappropriately. As everyones symptoms are of the heart acting abnormally its quite easy to initially believe that the root cause is the heart.

Based on my personal cause and effect analysis of my symptoms (for over 23 years) together with my layman understanding of many of the posts on this site, the fact that these symptoms often come and go for no conclusive reason and that they can occur in many areas of the heart causing different symptoms, I have come to a tentative conclusion that it is the stimulus to the heart (not the heart itself) that is the root cause of the problem. Specifically, it is primarily the heart reacting to the inappropriate flow of sodium, calcium and potassium ions caused by abnormal stimulus either by the vagus/sympathetic/parasympathetic nerves or electrolyte imbalance (Sodium, Calcium, Potassium, Magnesium, Iron).

As this is a personal theory only (there are no clinical trials to back it up), I would like to ask the good people on this site, who actually experience the symptoms first hand and are therefore in many way the "experts" for their views or comments (definition of an expert is someone that knows as much as you and just a little more). This is not a theory I feel precious about and would welcome anyone who can pick flaws in it or better still anyone that can offer reasons to accept it.

Unfortunately I cannot offer any fixes but at least if we can get to the bottom of the root cause, there is hope to fixing it rather than continuing trying to just controlling the symptoms of the heart through drugs or ablating.

162 Replies
oldestnewest
BobD
BobDVolunteer

Firstly my definition of expert . Ex is has-been , spirt is a drip under pressure.

There will be lots of different responses to your theory I am sure and none will be wrong. the brutal truth is that nobody actually understands why we get AF.

Ok there is definitely a genetic link as many members of a family over time will develop the condition but also it can be acqured, for example by over exercise (Athletes and fast jet pilots) due to long term damage to the heart. A bit like continually over revving an engine.

From the genetic perspective I suspect that a particular design feature ( anomaly ) endemic in the ancestral genes creates a facility for rogue singnals to form .

AF is one of those strange conditions where we know what it is but not why it is. We know of ways to reduce the burden by life style changes, diet and mental approach and there are many theories about vagus or phrenic nerves etc. and even the spine but it is the mongrel nature of the complaint which is so confusing as in some people no link can be found or proven.

What is significant I think is that thirty years ago maybe AF was a conditon mainly seen in older people whilst now we find youngsters presenting with it so maybe we should look for environmental reasons, EMI, 4/5G etc as one member is convinced his AF was caused by keeping his mobile phone in his shirt pocket.

Who knows but you would make a million if you ever found out!

12 likes
Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to BobD

Thank you, your response is much appreciated, the relatively recent population increase with people in our condition may well be something to do with our way of life (inc the food we eat). In a way I think that is in line with what I was trying to say, I just cannot help but think that the fix is in something other than in the heart itself and the medical community do not place the due emphasis or cure/prevention rather on controlling the symptoms. If there is a known cause found at some time, the question then becomes can it be cured or just prevented from starting . I totally agree with you there are too many questions, too few answers, but we live in hope.

By nature of the shortage of posts on your recovery, I take it that your on track?

3 likes
Reply
BobD
BobDVolunteer
in reply to Shcldavies

Wouldn't admit it if I wasn't lol 😁 Just a bit slow thanks. Anno dominii I suspect./

Reply
Auriculaire

Modern medicine is nowadays largely controlled by the money of Pharma and medical device industrues. Cures are not profitable. Medicines for life which control symptoms are. Especially if they produce side effects that require another medicine.

9 likes
Reply
Shcldavies

Sad but true, if only money was not the only driver

2 likes
Reply
Angie06
Angie06
in reply to BobD

Love your definition of expert!! Must remember it now for future use 🤣

1 like
Reply
Auriculaire
Auriculaire
in reply to BobD

If you found out that it was EMF and/or mobile phone usage you would be more likely to be bumped off in an "accident". There are more and more diseases that used to be thought the scourge of oldies appearing in younger people- aggressive breast cancer is one and I think we have to look at both the environment and lifestyle particularly that which children and adolescents are now experiencing - rubbish food and fizzy drinks, highly polluted air, far too much screen time and indoor time , vitamin d deficiency due to being constantly slathered in chemical laden sun creams if they do spend time in the sun. I am constantly telling my stepson and daughter in law when they come here that the kids are far too pale!

3 likes
Reply
BobD
BobDVolunteer
in reply to Auriculaire

Don't worry I'm already a marked man. I do have friends in high places though. Thought for the day. If you use Alexa, who else is listening?

3 likes
Reply
Auriculaire
Auriculaire
in reply to BobD

Alexa? Can't see the point of her. I suspect "smart " tv s . And I resent GPS for stealing my navigator job on trips- especially as it is always taking us on roads not really suitable for a motor bike- ones barely more than a track with grass growing in the middle. But husband likes technology. We are definitely not having Alexa though.

2 likes
Reply
john-boy-92

I recall that within the past two years, Bristol University had postulated that high blood pressure was caused by abnormal brain cells. If that were found to be true, is there a possibility that the root cause of atrial fibrillation and atrial flutter is related to the brain? I spoke to a surgeon who carries out ablations but said that he wouldn't have one. Are ablations dealing with the symptoms and not the cause?

6 likes
Reply
Shcldavies

Thank you, yes I have little doubt that the brain plays a part as the operation of our nervous system comes from the brain. Whilst there is no cure for the condition I find it strange that the surgeon who does the ablations would not have one, true they just fix the symptoms not the cause but boy the symptoms are often severe and life changing, an ablation can and nearly always gives you your life back.

1 like
Reply
john-boy-92

Although I didn't develop the conversation with the EP it may be that he sees ablation as a drastic step. I have brief spells of atrial flutter that show up more in fairly intensive cardio exercise and, my current troponin level is only just above the norm. Like some other people in this forum I've had been close enough to the grim reaper so I'm happy to just be and not chase perfection.

Reply
Shcldavies

Thats a good pragmatic way of looking at it, though I am not sure that the EP view is right as our bodies do repair themselves in time if they are allowed to.

Reply
HowMyHeartSings

Why did he say he wouldn’t have an ablation?

Reply
john-boy-92

He didn't say. We had already agreed that at 70 my chances of a succesful and long lasting ablation were deminished.

Reply
LaceyLady

We can certainly make ourselves ill With worry and stressing. I, having some knowledge of the body, was feeling worse mentally when they said it’s AF 😳 I know we can create illness with the mind and also create wellness. For instance, I was told on having a bone density test I’d never get osteoporosis, However, people like me get arthritis 😳 NEVER, I said, I’m NEVER having that! And I don’t and will not👍🏻 My mum had severe rheumatoid arthritis, that can be inherited. NO NO NO NO

1 like
Reply
GrannyE
GrannyE
in reply to john-boy-92

Why wouldn’t he have an ablation? There is no doubt that since the ablation I no longer have wild palpitations and I can do more than I could although the AFib is dropping in and out now. I have been referred back to my EP in a couple of weeks.

Reply
john-boy-92
john-boy-92
in reply to GrannyE

As I replied earlier, I didn't ask him. For me, I feel no difference between 60 bpm, and 160bpm at 56 s/m on a Concept 2, so why use NHS resources for something that is not an issue? I was in hospital (Bristol Heart Institute) a couple weeks ago for something else, and the usual monitoring was picking up brief bursts of atrial flutter. I've had a stroke in 2016 and now I'm on an anticoagulant. There appears to be a wide experience when it comes to flutter and fibrillation; for me "keep calm and carry on".

Reply
sadieflynn

Ever had a root canal? Check out the documentary "Root Cause". On Utube for $3.99 US.

I had Afib for 3 years! Always going to emergency room couple times a month. Rest of the time was spent in bed. It also morphed into SVT, then Sick Sinus Syndrome. I had all 3.

I was one week away from getting a pace maker at the end. Because i was blacking out a lot from heart stopping up to 7 seconds.

A dentist had told me to get that documentary. When they were going to almost force me to get a pacemaker, I finally made the effort, and had those root canals removed- THE PROPER WAY - approx. 4 months ago, every symptom of all those issues have gone! completely!, Not even one flutter, since! Feel totally normal. Strong, sleep well, no fears of going to social events, etc!

All this IS connected to the Vagus Nerve! Don't believe this is true? I dare anyone sceptical to go on Utube and watch the documentary!

I am LIVING PROOF! My cardiologist, Electrophysiologist, and Primary Care Physician are all dumbfounded. They didn't believe it would work at first. Now are happily convinced!! And happy for me and have all told me that I have totally normal heart activity again!

I've posted about this right after I had procedure done - very economically also - apparently it sounded too good to be true. What do you have to lose? $3.99 US.

BTW Netflix had it but the dental industry forced them to remove it. It was destroying their revenue streams - their major one.

One more point - Root Canals also cause intestinal major issues as well as many other hard to diagnose health issues. Which typically only the symptoms get treated with meds because they do not know what the real problem is.

I've posted this same message to others on this feed.

ROOT CANALS CAN IRRITATE THE VAGUS NERVE AND CREATE AFIB, SVT, SICK SINUS SYNDROME, ETC.

I'm just grateful I did not submit to having an ablation!!

1 like
Reply
baraba

Hi! May I ask you a question...? If you would by chance, or by wisdom, or by whatever, discover the cause and the way of treatment for AF, what would you do with it? Bob mentioned a million... Would you consider it to be sufficient? Maybe too little, or too much...

Reply
Shcldavies

How can anyone ask for money for knowing how to cure such a life debilitation condition, a cure would be priceless, if I knew I would gladly let everyone know, cost would not come into it. I suppose that is the attitude of someone that has been in the NHS all their life - and proud of it..

10 likes
Reply
Ablation627

I love this answer!❤️

Reply
Shcldavies

Thank you

Reply
LaceyLady

You’d definitely have to slap a copyright on it 😜 Or it’d be copied and sold by pharma 😳

1 like
Reply
S11m
S11m
in reply to Shcldavies

Unfortunately, everything is assessed in terms of money, and financial reward is the incentive to find a cure.

Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to S11m

I think that spending money to fix the symptom is fine, but is the money not better spent in trying to fix the cause. What I am suggesting is that the cause may not require great deal of medication and hence there is little research - this is what is wrong (if I am right that is)

Reply
S11m
S11m
in reply to Shcldavies

Do a survey ¿here? and see what proportion of us:

Is (or has been) obese

has diabetes

has or had a sedentary occupation

has been an (endurance) athlete

history of eating junk food

salt

celiac disease

gluten intolerance

family history of heart problems

live in a polluted city

hormonal problems

other non-communicable diseases

In which countries is it common? ...since when?

1 like
Reply
GrannyE
GrannyE
in reply to S11m

Good idea. Maybe the British Heart Foundation should take this up.

For what it is worth I have always been very slim,

never eaten junk food,

am gluten intolerant now.

grandfather died of a heart attack,

always been very active except when I contracted glandular fever and then ME 36 years ago, and then 3 years ago became anaemic due to taking omeprazole prescribed by the doctor, which was the trigger for the start of my heart problems,

1 like
Reply
sadieflynn
sadieflynn
in reply to S11m

OR HAD A ROOT CANAL

Reply
baraba

Not from NHS, not even close to it... Not from a different planet, but from a different world... Everything has its value and its price. Thousands of researchers all over the world are struggling to disclose the secret of AF, millions are spent without results, and who knows how long will it take to come to the truth. If anyone would offer an instant solution, it should have some value, right?

1 like
Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to baraba

Yes I agree it would be of immense value, in fact priceless value to all those cured. Not sure all the researchers are looking in the right area though as they seem to be concentrating on the symptoms rather than the cause.

3 likes
Reply
baraba
baraba
in reply to Shcldavies

They definitely are digging on the wrong spot. But they have a very complicated task to find the cure for something they even do not understand themselves.

Yesterday I tied to repair the malfunctioning part of the electric system in my car and experienced what it looks like, when someone messes with something without enough knowledge - it was a total fiasco. My knowledge covers mechanical part of the car, but no electric part.

The problem of cardiac arrhythmia is so complex, that it requires multidisciplinary approach as a must. In one occasion, in Fibromyalgia forum, I have written the post with the title "The missing link" claiming that one whole field must be missing in modern medicine, since there are about 30 syndromes and body conditions which have no understood cause and no cure. The reaction was that the post was locked and banned for replies...

1 like
Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to baraba

Our bodies are a truly fantastic bit of kit, even the experts only scratch the surface.

Reply
Auriculaire
Auriculaire
in reply to baraba

My opinion of fibromyalgia is that it is often fluoroquinolone poisoning. I would bet good money that if you looked into the medical records of those diagnosed with fibromyalgia you would find exposure to an antibiotic of either the fluoroquinolone class or to their predecessors which were not fluorinated. The rise of fibromyalgia as a diagnosis has paralled that of quinolone use . As many reactions to this class of antibiotics are delayed by months the connection is never made by the patient or the doctor.

2 likes
Reply
baraba
baraba
in reply to Auriculaire

You are not alone on that track. Some other folks in the forum have also suggested what you have just mentioned yourself. The Meds are something that is profit bringing and some producers do not take much care of the side effects. Lately, it has been reported that some medications for BP, used by the patients for decades, are causing the cancer... What to say...?

1 like
Reply
Shcldavies

Thats interesting, I don't know about the drugs you mention (I will look them up) but they sure look as if they are a potential to the cause and hence the start of a cure.

Reply
Auriculaire

I had my first 2 attacks of afib after exposure to Cipro. As a class fluoroquinolones are also provokers of long QT arrythmias which are potentially fatal. They also cause umpteen other problems that can be permanent such as peripheral neuropathy, widespread muscular skeletal damage ( due to attacking collagen) , retinal detatchment , aortic aneurism and are the worst class of antibiotic for gut problems. And that's not all - CNS problems like seizures, insomnia , massive anxiety attacks , suicidal thoughts. A perfect poison for some people. I would urge anybody prescribed this by their doc for anything other than a life or death infection to think 3 times before taking it. And do not think that because you have taken it successfully in the past it will be ok. Everyone has their own tolerance threshold for these drugs and the next time could be the time when you are "floxed". There is no way of knowing. Personally I would not take one again even if I were dying .

1 like
Reply
sweetiepye

From the first afib episode I was told my heart is sound , b ut I have run away electrical signals messing about. I have had every heart test known to man , They show I have a healthy strong heart. I have had 2 ablations, waiting for 3rd . So my strong heart keeps getting burned to stop the crazy signals. I hope my poor heart can with stand the war waged against it. Those rogue signals keep working, they restlessly find new pathways to my heart. it is possible I have got it wrong, if so please correct my thinking. What is the source of the signals?

Reply
Shcldavies

The signals come from sodium and calcium to contract the heart and mainly potassium to relax it, they are in the form of ions (positively and negatively charged particles) moving through discreet channels within the heart, what no one knows is why they do this out of sync. I am suggesting its more to do with the nervous system or the electrolytes (Sodium Calcium and Potassium or Magnesium) rather than a physical problem in the heart.

3 likes
Reply
sweetiepye

Mine is nit to reason why , mine is but to do or ops! to do.

1 like
Reply
sweetiepye

not not nit

1 like
Reply
LaceyLady

The brain, central nervous system. The brain and nervous system is very complex, I doubt a great deal is known. I feel sodium, calcium and potassium are reactionary.

Reply
GrannyE
GrannyE
in reply to Shcldavies

It seems to me that we need to try to make sure we get sufficient potassium (bananas?) magnesium from food and supplements, sodium (pink Himalayan sea salt?) and calcium (leafy greens etc) and to drink plenty of clean water. That would at least give our bodies a chance.

1 like
Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to GrannyE

Yes I agree, not sure about the Himalayan salt though, there are some questions with the rust that turns it pink. I take British sea salt, Anglesea sea salt has good press right now

Reply
sadieflynn

Ever had a root canal? Check out the documentary "Root Cause". On Utube for $3.99 US.

I had Afib for 3 years! Always going to emergency room couple times a month. Rest of the time was spent in bed. It also morphed into SVT, then Sick Sinus Syndrome. I had all 3.

I was one week away from getting a pacemaker at the end. Because i was blacking out a lot from heart stopping up to 7 seconds.

A dentist had told me to get that documentary. When they were going to almost force me to get a pacemaker, I finally made the effort, and had those root canals removed- THE PROPER WAY - approx. 4 months ago, every symptom of all those issues have gone! completely!, Not even one flutter, since! Feel totally normal. Strong, sleep well, no fears of going to social events, etc!

All this IS connected to the Vagus Nerve! Don't believe this is true? I dare anyone sceptical to go on Utube and watch the documentary!

I am LIVING PROOF! My cardiologist, Electrophysiologist, and Primary Care Physician are all dumbfounded. They didn't believe it would work at first. Now are happily convinced!! And happy for me and have all told me that I have totally normal heart activity again!

I've posted about this right after I had procedure done - very economically also - apparently it sounded too good to be true. What do you have to lose? $3.99 US.

BTW Netflix had it but the dental industry forced them to remove it. It was destroying their revenue streams - their major one.

One more point - Root Canals also cause intestinal major issues as well as many other hard to diagnose health issues. Which typically only the symptoms get treated with meds because they do not know what the real problem is.

I've posted this same message to others on this feed.

ROOT CANALS CAN IRRITATE THE VAGUS NERVE AND CREATE AFIB, SVT, SICK SINUS SYNDROME, ETC.

I'm just grateful I did not submit to having an ablation!!

Reply
sweetiepye

I am happy you are doing well. It is encouraging to hear your story. I had a similar but opposite problem. I think my afib caused my teeth to rot. I see my dentist regularly and after some time I went in for a 6 mo. check up. So many teeth were completely ruined my dentist suggested dentures. He couldn't understand how this could happen so quickly. I was at a loss also . I was doing nothing differently. So I had a combination of implants and dentures.over a year ago. To me, your theory sounds plausible . My Dentist doesn't believe afib caused my problem , but I still do. So maybe a connection with blood flow, bacteria ? I still have afib btw. Pam

Reply
john6

The problem is that it is not (certainly in my case) any (one) thing, unfortunately the same for many others. Anything that causes my BP to rise or fall, will affect the blood going through my heart, causing Afib. Numerous stimulants from our food and drink ie alcohol, caffeine, certain fats (I had some lightly buttered toast last night - paying for it today), then there is having a heavy meal/over eating/drinking etc, laying down or relaxing - jeez I could go on forever.

To make things worse the medics cannot agree amongst themselves what my/our condition comes under! Some refer to it as Palpitations, then they might call it Afib, only to find out this week that my Afib is not just Afib, although I thought my tests over the past 4 years would have defined it. It seems that I have Afib + Atrial flutter, from a layman's point of view I thought they were one and the same condition - they are not.

My descriptions would therefore be; Palpitations = a racing heart synchronised like a steam train, it is going at a 100 miles an hour with the driver slamming the brakes on trying to slow it down, the brakes cannot stop it, it only pauses, so it carries on until many many braking/pausing attempts later, it eventually slows down to normal.

Afib;It is similar to a demented drummer on drugs, a drummer who has also lost his/her rhythm, compounded by not knowing when to stop.

Atrial Flutter; Difficult to say, so try this! Similar to two live electrical wires barely touching, they are buzzing/sparking as they touch each other, I would also describe it as an angry bee buzzing inside.

In answer to the conundrum I would say that it is mostly down to our BP ie whatever alters it or causes it to fluctuate - now that we have this condition!As to what is the root cause - that is something else.

Anyone else with mental (heavy on the mental ha ha) descriptions of our condition/s so we can point our medics in the right direction?

3 likes
Reply
Polly159
Polly159
in reply to john6

Not sure 're BP - perhaps that is in the mix for some folk, but my BP has always been spot on. There is so much still to be identified about AFIB, but sharing experiences is very helpful.

2 likes
Reply
BobD
BobDVolunteer
in reply to Polly159

Not sure you are right about BP being a cause. For me it is a result. I can be ticking along nicely at a (for me) comfortable 125/70 and suddenly go into AT at which point my BP shoots up to anything it feels lik. Could be 145/90 or has been up to 165/110. As soon as it settles I'm back normal so result not cause. The whole cycle lasts no more than ten minutes or less.

1 like
Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to BobD

Thats a really good BP you have, even the 145/90 is not too bad. I feel BP can be more of an indicator in some, possibly dependant on the type of arrhythmia you have.

1 like
Reply
BobD
BobDVolunteer
in reply to Shcldavies

I'm happy with it but the drug company driven health system wanted it even lower at which point I started falling over if I stood up too fast. lol 😂 I still take one BP med but stopped the othe one in order to live normally. My doctor was quite happy because she had had the conversation which enabled her to tick the relative box and get her points. And you know what points mean------.

Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to BobD

Funny that a very similar thing happened to me, struck a compromise that I stay on 1.25 of Bisoprolol. I now feel very good so I will live with it (just in case they may be right).

Reply
Auriculaire
Auriculaire
in reply to BobD

I don't think we can have that system here -yet- because my doc says fine if my blood pressure is 140/80 ,and perfect if it is anything less. I think he goes by the old teaching that blood pressure rises a little naturally with age and you cannot expect a person in their sixties or seventies to have the blood pressure of a 25 year old athletic type - and that giving them a pill to achieve this would do more harm than good. My cholestrol is always ( slightly) above the norm and he has never commented on that either. But when my last blood tests showed a rise in TSH he immediately told me to up my thyroid meds.

1 like
Reply
Shcldavies

I understand that, many doctors here feel the same, there are some good videos from "yorkcardiology" on youtube on the subject.

Reply
DK81
DK81
in reply to Auriculaire

What does TSH mean?

1 like
Reply
Auriculaire
Auriculaire
in reply to DK81

Thyroid Stimulating Hormone. It goes up when the thyroid is not producing enough hormone or if your thyroid meds need upping.

Reply
Contra21
Contra21
in reply to john6

Buttered toast gave you af?

Reply
john6
john6
in reply to Contra21

I find that if I eat cooking fats or in this case butter I generally some hours later get an Afib episode. Back some years ago when it was normal to go out to have a few beers and finish off with a curry, it would often leave my system racing/fidgety. Basically fats give you warmth and "energy". The energy is affecting my heart/blood in some way.

Reply
Shcldavies

Thank you, very descriptive, yes I believe blood pressure is more of an indicator. I will say my flutter was nothing like what you described, with me it could hardly be noticed when laying down, then like a Cardiac Arrest (at one point even had the crash team called) when standing/walking, we are all just so different. Getting to that miracle cure looks a way to go.

Reply
Brad43

Afib doesn't originate in the heart, it originates in the pulmonary veins. Your heart can be perfectly normal, and you can still get afib because of a problem in the veins. As most here must know, in an ablation the openings of the pulmonary veins into the atrium are what is treated, namely by freezing or heating. The resulting scar tissue can't pass the electrical impulses from the veins into the heart (if the ablation is successful). Possibly the problem in the veins originates in the brain or elsewhere, but I've never heard anyone suggest that. Apologies if I missed the point, and I'm reciting what everyone already knows.

1 like
Reply
BobD
BobDVolunteer
in reply to Brad43

Sorry Brad but it often occurs in other places in the left atrium. This is why cryo ablation is often a limited success as RF is then required to stop the other areas affected. I wish it were that simple.

1 like
Reply
Laduquesa

Personally, I think the problem lies with my vagus nerve. Periods of AF, for me, are caused more by digestive issues like eating or drinking too much, pressure on diaphragm etc. I suffer from other problems - migraine, restless legs, sensitive bladder which seem to me to be also related to hyper sensitive nervous system maybe...

3 likes
Reply
Shcldavies

Yes I totally agree, what I am not so sure about is how the vagus nerve causes it and what can be done about it. The other dimension is that whilst the vagus nerve will speed up the movement of ions through the cells of the heart causing the contraction and relaxation of the muscles, if the electrolytes are not there in the right proportion then the correct signals from the vagus nerve would not produce the correct stimulus to the muscles.

1 like
Reply
Lbeat796
Lbeat796
in reply to Shcldavies

My palpitations are mostly vagal which i think runs from brain through neck to control various organs including heart. If i bend my chin to chest or turn my head these movements can start a palpitation but obviously not every time. There must be a contributary factor, ie lack of potassium, magnesium etc. When an attack happens if i carry out a vagal maneuvre immediately i can stop it in its tracks but if not episode can continue with pulse banging in right side of neck for up to 3 hours. But now have discovered that by taking a magnesium tablet when palpitation starts that it can shorten episode to sometimes 15 minutes. Another trigger for me is sugar. Am not sure whether sugar disturbs balance of magnesium/potassium in body.

2 likes
Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to Lbeat796

Thank you thats good to know, I think your control of any potential attack is also worth exploring. Our bodies are far too complicated for mere mortals to fully understand and the interrelationships within our bodies are extremely complex. For example magnesium is unlikely to work if you have low acid in you stomach(take PPIs) or a lack of vitamins D, a low iron level will lower your potassium level etc etc. I am not sure about sugar but I would bet that it does have an effect. If magnesium worked for you I would recommend having an Epsom's salts bath (use 1/2 a packet) for 20 minutes every week and eat at least 1 avocado a week.

Reply
Lbeat796
Lbeat796
in reply to Shcldavies

Its called the Valsalva Manouvre. My palpitations are prompted by either a missed or ectopic heartbeat which you feel in throat. You must hold your breath deep in throat applying pressure with muscles in throat. Its hard to explain. You may be better googling it. If you run out of breath thats not good as palpitation will start. When seeing a consultant he asked me what prompted attacks. I told him sugar. He said that was top trigger. I think everybody has different triggers. So what works for me may not help you.

Reply
sadieflynn
sadieflynn
in reply to Lbeat796

Ever had a root canal? Check out the documentary "Root Cause". On Utube for $3.99 US.

I had Afib for 3 years! Always going to emergency room couple times a month. Rest of the time was spent in bed. It also morphed into SVT, then Sick Sinus Syndrome. I had all 3.

I was one week away from getting a pace maker at the end. Because i was blacking out a lot from heart stopping up to 7 seconds.

A dentist had told me to get that documentary. When they were going to almost force me to get a pacemaker, I finally made the effort, and had those root canals removed- THE PROPER WAY - approx. 4 months ago, every symptom of all those issues have gone! completely!, Not even one flutter, since! Feel totally normal. Strong, sleep well, no fears of going to social events, etc!

All this IS connected to the Vagus Nerve! Don't believe this is true? I dare anyone sceptical to go on Utube and watch the documentary!

I am LIVING PROOF! My cardiologist, Electrophysiologist, and Primary Care Physician are all dumbfounded. They didn't believe it would work at first. Now are happily convinced!! And happy for me and have all told me that I have totally normal

heart activity again!

I've posted about this right after I had procedure done - very economically also - apparently it sounded too good to be true. What do you have to lose? $3.99 US.

BTW Netflix had it but the dental industry forced them to remove it. It was destroying their revenue streams - their major one.

One more point - Root Canals also cause intestinal major issues as well as many other hard to diagnose health issues. Which typically only the symptoms get treated with meds because they do not know what the real problem is.

ROOT CANALS CAN IRRITATE THE VAGUS NERVE AND CREATE AFIB, SVT, SICK SINUS SYNDROME, ETC.

I'm just grateful I did not submit to having an ablation!!

Reply
Janith
Janith
in reply to Laduquesa

Sensitive bladder is caused by afib ... the heart excretes an enzyme which causes the body to go wee wee constantly during an episode to get rid of the salt in one’s body ...

Reply
Shcldavies

Thank you, yes AF does get ablated around the pulmonary veins (and other places) and what you say could well be right. My theory was trying to identify why our Sodium, Calcium and mainly Potassium ions move in such a way through their channels to cause the strange heartbeat. As an example when you get exited your heart beats faster, what initiates the faster beat would be the signal/chemicals (e.g. adrenalin) it gets speeds up the movement of ions through their channels of the heart causing the electrical signals for faster contraction and relaxation of the heart muscles. My theory was based on the irregular movement of these ions through the channels being caused by an external stimulus or inappropriate electrolytes. My only substance is from analysis of cause and effect of my symptoms (Afl and MAT) and trying to rationalise many of the posts on this site, so nothing conclusive at all. But my theory would answers many of the questions and explain why symptoms improve in some and not others from taking things like magnesium, potassium, iron etc. supplements and why certain foods like avocado, banana, water etc. can make it better and why things like, alcohol, caffeine and stress can make things worst in some. The flaw in my theory is why certain movements or positions can start the arrhythmia.

Our hearts are an amazing piece of kit, even the experts that spend all their working lives trying to understand it just touch the surface of its abilities, we have little hope in understanding such a complex organ, so I took a different approach to the problem but know only too well that I could be completely wrong, that why its good to have feedback like yours to put things into perspective

3 likes
Reply
chenstone18

I agree that we should be looking at the root cause because everyone has one but probably different in each of us. I too have spent much effort in trying to identify the trigger and have come to the conclusion for me that prior a traumatic event I did not have it but after I did. I therefore put it down to adrenaline as the bodies response has been changed and become super sensitive. Adrenaline is released into the body in super doses when dealing with flash backs and other PTSD symptoms and that confuses the electrical system. Adrenaline is used to restart the heart so it makes sense to me that too much will have an effect. I think that once your body has been changed by PTSD it then become sensitive to other stimulus even after you have recovered from the psychological effects. For me I have found that too much salt in my diet sets it off so I avoid it to the extreme and it does help but I still get episodes. I am grateful that for the last 2 weeks flecanide has started to help but the prospect of an ablation really does not appeal. What gets to me is that I am a very healthy 57 year old and AF curtails me from pursuing what I love, cycling and running. Hope this helps.

6 likes
Reply
Shcldavies

Thank you, I agree with your conclusions, there are many things, adrenalin being most prominent that effect our heart. Your comment on salt is interesting as sodium is the thing that allows/triggers the calcium ions to move through the channels and contract your heart muscle, before mainly potassium relaxes it again (all simply put I know). Food for thought on electrolyte imbalance perhaps.

1 like
Reply
sadieflynn

Ever had a root canal? Check out the documentary "Root Cause". On Utube for $3.99 US.

I had Afib for 3 years! Always going to emergency room couple times a month. Rest of the time was spent in bed. It also morphed into SVT, then Sick Sinus Syndrome. I had all 3.

I was one week away from getting a pace maker at the end. Because i was blacking out a lot from heart stopping up to 7 seconds.

A dentist had told me to get that documentary. When they were going to almost force me to get a pacemaker, I finally made the effort, and had those root canals removed- THE PROPER WAY - approx. 4 months ago, every symptom of all those issues have gone! completely!, Not even one flutter, since! Feel totally normal. Strong, sleep well, no fears of going to social events, etc!

All this IS connected to the Vagus Nerve! Don't believe this is true? I dare anyone sceptical to go on Utube and watch the documentary!

I am LIVING PROOF! My cardiologist, Electrophysiologist, and Primary Care Physician are all dumbfounded. They didn't believe it would work at first. Now are happily convinced!! And happy for me and have all told me that I have totally normal heart activity again!

I've posted about this right after I had procedure done - very economically also - apparently it sounded too good to be true. What do you have to lose? $3.99 US.

BTW Netflix had it but the dental industry forced them to remove it. It was destroying their revenue streams - their major one.

ROOT CANALS CAN IRRITATE THE VAGUS NERVE AND CREATE AFIB, SVT, SICK SINUS SYNDROME, ETC.

I'm just grateful I did not submit to having an ablation!!

One more point - Root Canals also cause intestinal major issues as well as many other hard to diagnose health issues. Which typically only the symptoms get treated with meds because they do not know what the real problem is.

I've posted this same message to others on this feed.

Reply
Andyc934

In my opinion western lifestyle and mindset is a strong factor where no physical abnormalities exist, we live at an unhealthy pace, we are bombarded with stimuli , most people are disconnected from nature, you would be hard pressed to find a single case of AF in some societies, alot of younger people's diets are appalling as well, there were no supersize Mars bars in the 1970s !

Andy

Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to Andyc934

Thank you, I do agree, the problem is what do we do about it.

Reply
Polly159
Polly159
in reply to Andyc934

Super-sized Mars Bars? Might be my eyesight, but I think they're getting smaller and smaller! But yes, AFIB is certainly at least in some part(but not entirely and for some people not at all), testimony to the old adage that you are what you eat.

1 like
Reply
dani777

My personal opinion is that you can be born with either a tendency to get palpitations, just as some people are prone to migraines, or that you have a slight defect somewhere from birth, although it may not manifest itself with symptoms for years. But I also sometimes wonder what came first, the chicken or the egg? Does having bad anxiety trigger heart arrythmias in some people? Or does having a congenital arrythmia trigger anxiety in some people? Or can it work both ways? Yes, they sometimes seem to come on randomly, but they also come on after some upset or if you are fearful of something. Or after a big meal. Or if you don't get enough sleep.

I think some people who have very severe anxiety, I think their "fight or flight" response gets all messed up, malfunctions, so that your body always thinks it's under attack. So your adrenaline is always sky high and that triggers palps. That's another theory.

My mom said she suffered palpitations for many years. But in her old age, they went away. She believes stress caused them. But it's not that simple because many people have stress but no palpitations. And for other people, they don't just go away, they get worse over time. Anyway, interesting topic.

1 like
Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to dani777

Yes I also believe that some can be pre-dispositioned with palpitations, but that just makes them more susceptible it does not necessarily mean they will have them or they cannot be fixed (though they certainly cannot be fixed at this time). Your query on anxiety is interesting and not possible to come up with a logical answer. But I have a theory on that also and that it can be either, in my case it was the heart problems causing the anxiety. I base this on having heart problems (MAT) for 23 years and now following an ablation I just have a "normal" MAT problem and my anxiety has gone away. I still have concerns the my MAT may become symptomatic again but that is in no way like anxiety.

Reply
Lbeat796
Lbeat796
in reply to dani777

Yes i agree also that we were probably born with some defect in heart, with or without symptoms. When i was a teenager i remember if i ran for bus my heart would take a good few minutes to return to normal which has probably been an indication of future problems. I am now 68 and have been having palpitations for around 20 years. More frequent now but not as severe

1 like
Reply
john6
john6
in reply to Lbeat796

I think you are right re a possible heart defect. My Palpitations started when I was a 21 yr old (now 72), with Afib kicking in when I was 68. When I was younger I did some light running, my HR would take hours to come down to the proper resting rate of (72 bpm) for me. In my ignorance I believed that as I got fitter it would come down faster - it never did, as my stamina/endurance never seemed to get above a decent athletic level.

I had a good general fitness that enabled me to work 46 years without a sick day off. It enabled me to generally ignore my Palpitations as I more or less got used to them, looking back it served me well, although initially it was a worry. With Afib, unless I get arm/chest discomfort, then I tend to (to a degree) carry on when it kicks in - with a bit more awareness as to how it is going than I did with Palpitations.

Reply
Bayonnejoe

When I was first diagnosed my physician equated the importance of controlling both rate and rhythm. Hence, 2 meds. I was surprised to find multiple studies show no benefit between solely treating rate and treating rate plus rhythm. I remain mystified, now ten years down the line, why treating rhythm persists if effective date control has been established. I mention this here, because the posted is mostly addressing rhythm.

Reply
Shcldavies

Thank you, if I may clarify, the post is about any and all arrhythmia, particularly about the way we are treated, as the treatment is for the symptoms rather than the root cause and there does not appear there is much being done on the root cause. One of the reasons I posted it was to see off anyone knew of any such research. So far no takers.

Reply
sweetiepye

There is research on improving ablations. People still assume that is a cure. It can give you your life back temporarily , but is not a cure. I have had two ablations which have eliminated afib for years , but it always comes back.

Reply
Shcldavies

Yes I am sure ablations will get better, its just unfortunate that there is little being done to use the root cause of the problem.

Reply
researchx

I was in the ER with mild svt once and when I was given electrolyte drip I felt better, like magic,very calm, and it went away. The worst time scenerio my heart rate was 240 bmp and had to have adenosine .I also believe electrolytes are huge in arythmias.Also I notice before skipped beats usually there is a muscle spasm inside my neck -esophagus ,crico,pharangeal nerves,muscles etc.I went to electrophysicist who tried to talk me into ablation.I think it could mess up and I'd end up with a pacemaker or something.I also think that current would just find a new path in my heart.I'm good with my metoprolol now.I try to remember to take electrolytes-especially mag.I think I might try mag threonate-it has good reviews.I also saw on youtube from a chiroprator who was against ablation because its not the root problem ,altho.. never let them twist your neck!.can't find it but here is one on AFIB/electrolytes

1 like
Reply
Shcldavies

Thank you, I am please to see that we are of a similar mind. Regarding an ablation, there is a time when it is best to have one, very many people have had their lives back through it (I am one). I do agree that there is no need for an ablation if the symptoms are minor/controlled. The video does support the theory and only strengthens the need for more research into this area. There are risks to having an ablation but they are very small - there are risks to crossing the road but they are very small also.

1 like
Reply
Lbeat796
Lbeat796
in reply to researchx

That is exacly what i feel with missed beat which prompts palpitation. When i try to explain it to people i get a blank look as folk think its a panic attack. You can see my pulse beating on right side of neck which is almost like you have hands pressing neck! My consultant was reluctant to change my medication or ablation as thought i was dealing with it quite well and procedures all have risks. Its reassuring to hear that i am not only person with these weird symptoms

1 like
Reply
Ppiman

There does seem to be quite a good number of scientific theories and attempts at least to try to answer your question. My own experience suggests that EP cardiologists tend to have little interest in the root cause unless it is a physical aspect of the heart itself. When the heart seems sound, they focus only on creating a "local cure", i.e. an ablation. This is frustrating but is likely owing to the root cause being hard to uncover and thus to cure. Also, the arrhythmia is more important or urgent to deal with because it can lead to thrombosis, stroke and heart failure. I suspect also it is partly because the UK medical system brings specialists to focus far too much on the anatomical part rather than on the whole person. This is why a good GP is such a boon.

The root cause of most arrhythmias does seem to be within the physical heart itself, but when it isn't, it is hard to find, prove and cure. From what I can read, a common cause, but one that my cardiologist was uninterested in, seems to be direct irritation of the vagus nerve where it passes through the lower oesophogeal sphincter. In my case, I have GORD and a hiatus hernia. My GP thinks this is the root cause of the atrial flutter I suffered before my ablation. No matter how many times I suggested this to my cardiologist, I was met with a near blank response. Even when I had a stress MRI of the heart, I couldn't convince him to extend the MRI a little further to investigate the hernia.

Steve

3 likes
Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to Ppiman

Thank you, could you clarify something please, you believe the root cause is in the physical heart, then go on to say you believe the vagus nerve caused you condition, I am not sure I understand as these causes seem contradictory or am I reading it incorrectly?

I believe many Cardiologists do believe a hernia can trigger arrhythmia so you should continue to your belief until proved otherwise.

1 like
Reply
Ppiman
Ppiman
in reply to Shcldavies

Hi Steve

I might not have made that clear enough - sorry. Most arrhythmias can be traced to a heart "defect" of some kind, I gather, but of those that can't, then the root cause is hard to find, prove and cure but could be irritation of the vagus nerve.

Steve

1 like
Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to Ppiman

Thank you, I understand now, the Cardiologist also told me that but I believe that it is something external to the heart in many cases. I know the answer to the checking and egg question but can do little more than guess at the source of problem.

1 like
Reply
researchx

I think it all works together,and everyone has unique cirmcumstances.so even with a heart defect, some of us (not all) can control things. it's just not always easy ,especially if you are not deciplined.Like if one eats more like a rabbit,doesnt have coffee and booze than it can really help.I am so guilty-but once in a whileI force myself to a stricter diet

Reply
researchx
researchx
in reply to Ppiman

Any more problems after ablation?I am in the US.It is the same here.I think the EPs just want the work. How big is the HH? cardiac compression from large HH is real and documented, as in success after surgery.There are many studies out about what your dr is saying,but unfortunately acid blockers are not so healthy to use!!.If you return to cardiologist show him an article-like this academic.oup.com/europace/a...

Reply
Ppiman
Ppiman
in reply to researchx

In my case, I’m sure the hernia cannot be that large or it would have shown on the cardiac MRI scan and received a comment from the cardiologist.

Compression of the heart from a large hernia is, I guess, easier to solve with a fundoplicaton operation - not that such an operation should be lightly undertaken as it is not always a success.

I was thinking that it would be the smaller hernias that take up space in the oesophageal sphincter and press on and irritate the vagus nerve that might cause arrhythmias.

PPI drugs are wonderful drugs for acid control and aren’t proven to be dangerous, just suspected of having potential long term problems. For people with GORD, they are still most likely the lesser of two evils. Living without them and thus with reflux symptoms is hardly an option.

Steve

Reply
dleppard60

I agree and so does my EP. He told me the best way to control AF is with diet so I don't trigger it. Now that I have had one episode since my 3rd ablation which was June 10th I guess I am going to have to give that a try. He recommends a whole food plant based diet.

2 likes
Reply
Shcldavies

Thank you, I do believe that it will help, it would be better if we knew what nutrias we are short of and focused on getting them right. I know the difficult is the measure in our blood is not always a measure of our cell count (where it matters to our hearts), hence the catch all approach. but better this than just trying to fix the synmptoms.

Reply
researchx

I'm shocked!He is a good one

Reply
Shcldavies

Yes diet certainly play a part and I believe it supports my theory of electrolyte imbalance. There is also a disposition for those on PPIs suffering arrhythmia, again if you take PPIs you are likely to have magnesium depletion and magnesium is slowly being depleted from our food making thing worst.

Reply
researchx

Ya,I try not take them but I have another on and off condition that PPIs helped-its a silent reflex where I believe acid/pepsin is going up -usually my right side-thought it was a tooth prob at 1st--got chills-malaise.No dr could figure it out.Awful germs-bacteria etc---so no help from them!I took ppi-and it worked.then my GI dr said id have to take it forever...even when I mentioned how much my legs hurt..out of nowhere.He said oh no thats not it-but it was! Magnesium was being zapped,and also pharmacist told me those things were causing a heart attacks....I use topical liquid magnesium sometimes too

Reply
Shcldavies

Yes there is so much that effects so many other things, funny enough I tended to have my arrhythmia attacked when I had tooth problems also.

Reply
Dangerousdriver

I definitely have made a correlation between the nervous system and cardiac symptoms.

On many occasions I have had a vagal reaction which in turned created stimulus in the heart which presented themselves as either SVT/ectopics or AF.

Sometimes it’s even been subconscious reactions that caused an issue, and it was then that I realised how powerful our nervous system is.

The first night my AF really presented itself I was sitting on the toilet reading a news article on my phone which happened to be about something that was a particularly dark period in my life. Whilst reading I went into AF, and it was only whilst discussing with my EP the circumstances of the night in question and what I was reading that the EP agreed that was likely the cause. It triggered a vagal reaction and boom I was in AF.

So, there is definitely something in this. And in many ways mindfulness is just as important as physical health.

2 likes
Reply
Shcldavies

Thank you I can relate to all of what you say.

Reply
researchx

I can relate too.My worst long acting arythmias were due to stress,due to emotions which triggered too much adrenaline(without caffeine-Im shocked to say),which may have been calmed by the right electrolyte balance and vagal stimulation.It is like a constant battle to keep calm sometimes . (even tho the ER dr said it wasnt my fault-it was the path in my heart's fault!)It sure is complicated isnt it?If an abaltion would cure my stress-Id due it but the EP assured me that wasnt the case

Reply
Shcldavies

What I can say from personal experience is that I suffered anxiety when I had tachycardia, 6 months after my ablation I do not. I still worry about the MAT coming back but that is nothing like anxiety. I am convinced that the condition of your heart causes anxiety, not the other way round.

2 likes
Reply
Aufgeblassen

That's bullshit. How do you explain then, that one can go for many, many years w/o the problem(s), are still doing the same exact things as always, yet SUDDENLY out of the blue it hits them like a ton of bricks?

The true cause is called AGING. Nothing to do with lifestyle, diet, activity level or anything else. The brain and electrical signal path from and to the brain from organs simply does not work as well as it used to. The same happens with blood pressure; it is an electrical issue.

Why do you think an Alzheimers' graph (age vs. onset) takes a massive rise in the late 70s and early 80s? Because of brain electrical haywire due to age.

Reply
Shcldavies

If I can take just one of your points, no one does exactly the same for many many years, there is always change. If you eat an apple 20 years ago you would get some magnesium , eating an apple today you would get a fraction of the magnesium, hence the concerns about a low magnesium diet. What has magnesium to do with our hearts, primarily it controls the levels of electrolytes which in turn generate the electrical signals for your heart to contract and relax. Ageing makes things worst as our bodies become less efficient and many arrhythmia will effect the heart over time.

The Alzheimers graph is a totally different subject and does not rely on the movement of Sodium, Calcium and Potassium ions through channels of our heart to generate the electrical signals it needs.

2 likes
Reply
Aufgeblassen

I fully agree if you are "sitting on the fence" with AF, body mineral problems can throw you into AF. But if you get an ablation, you are no long on the fence, and can live your live w/o being on "pins & needles". Really worth the PEACE of MIND.

1 like
Reply
Ppiman
Ppiman
in reply to Aufgeblassen

I should think that ageing is indeed, a "true cause" for many people. The electrical pathways of the heart likely weaken with age - perhaps owing to tiny amounts of calcification and atherosclerosis building up in the micro-circulation of otherwise "healthy" hearts, a process that occurs as a natural result of ageing (it is believed) to a greater or lesser extent. Alternatively, there could be a parallel weakening of the nerve and electrical conduction pathways caused by inflammatory processes, something else that age always brings.

However, many people with arrhythmias are young and so a different "root cause" must be at work in those cases.

Steve

1 like
Reply
Aufgeblassen
Aufgeblassen
in reply to Ppiman

Not long ago, I heard about a young (20 year old) professional hockey player that had AF. He had a procedure to fix it (ablation undoubtedly). Otherwise he'd have to retire at such a young age.

2 likes
Reply
Dangerousdriver

I’d hardly call it bullshit! And aging isn’t the reason these conditions arise. You say it has nothing to do with lifestyle, diet etc, but I completely disagree.

I developed AF in my 30’s and many suffer in their 20’s and younger. I would hardly call that ageing would you?!

Circumstances in people’s lives can cause physical issues. Without laying bare certain events in my life I went from being fully healthy to having multiple issues including AF. I know my own body and mind and I can tell you that certain situations can cause a reaction that manifests as a physical symptom, whether that be tachycardia, ectopics etc. The body and nervous system learns how to repeat this behaviour and it becomes second nature under certain scenarios for the nervous system to replicate.

Well seeing as you seem to have it all figured out, maybe you can find the cure to our heart related issues?

Reply
Shcldavies

Thank you, interesting in what your saying on the body learning and reacting, I think there is something in that, in fact I think that the body trying to resolve itself is the main reason why some drugs become ineffective over time.

Reply
Aufgeblassen

The bottom line is that if you have AF, you should get cured with an ablation for peace of mind, relief of fear of onset, and having to take "baby steps" with your life to avoid triggering it. You can do whatever you want and everything you've always done post ablation.

Reply
Dangerousdriver

I’ve had an ablation, in fact I’ve had both RF and Cryo ablations and whilst my symptoms are better, I can’t do everything I want. I’m still limited to what I can do physically which still triggers SVT during heavy physical stress or mental stress.

Reply
Aufgeblassen

Obviously, EP was not very skilled and/or did not ablate nearly enough. You should get another ablation with a DIFFERENT EP.

Just because you are the rare exception, is no reason to discourage others, when the procedure is so very successful for the vast majority.

Reply
Dangerousdriver

Erm, I’d hardly say he was not skilled! He is well known and highly regarded. And at no stage do I recall discouraging others! I’m all for ablation treatment or whatever works for each individual.

Reply
Aufgeblassen

OK

Reply
Dangerousdriver

We are all here on the same path essentially from various walks of life and this forum has been of great help to me at times. Your posts aside I have never had to post such a reply.

You really don’t seem to be endearing yourself in here! The problem I see is that you think you are always right and appear arrogant in your posts if I’m being brutally honest. Maybe you just like to illicit responses from others, but may I suggest maybe a different approach where it’s not your way or the highway.

Reply
Shcldavies

If only that was true it would answer so many questions, unfortunately you only have to do no more than read many of the posts on this site to see that it not. AF cannot be cured, an ablation helps considerably and well worth it but it returns in many. Aflutter or AT can be cured by ablation but if you do not know what caused it and your continue to make the lifestyle mistakes then it is likely to return.

Reply
Aufgeblassen

Not! I'm living the exact same lifestyle as before. I feel ZERO need to change anything. If ablation did not work, I would not have been 17 mos. 100% AF free (not just "better") after 1st ablation, and ditto for 2nd one.

According to your logic. one should not bother getting a tooth cavity fixed, because someday you might get another one. I don't buy such nonsense.

Reply
bantam12

You are very arrogant !

2 likes
Reply
Aufgeblassen

Nope! Just VERY confident, having been thru eight (8) or so episodes/onsets of full blown AF (both A-Fib and A-Flutter), many cardioversions, many hospital stays, and two highly effective, simple (i.e. took 1 1/2 days each time, was 100% back to normal the very next day) ablations that both I was 100% AF for 17+ mos. each time.

Reply
Shcldavies

There are people that have one bout then no more and don't need any treatment, then there are those that repeatedly revert to their condition, clearly you do not have the condition of the many. All the Cardiologists and EPs that I known about all say that AF cannot be cured from an ablation only, but A flutter can. The fact that you are so well now is good, you are very lucky but it is presumptuous to speak for the many that are not so lucky.

1 like
Reply
Aufgeblassen

If you don't take my word for it, take it from experts:

Paroxysmal atrial fibrillation can be eliminated in 70-75 percent of patients with a single procedure. When the procedure is repeated in patients who still have atrial fibrillation after the first procedure, the overall success rate is approximately 85-90 percent.

Persistent atrial fibrillation can be eliminated in approximately 50 percent of patients with a single procedure. In about 30 percent of patients who undergo ablation of chronic atrial fibrillation, the atrial fibrillation is replaced by a different kind of short circuit referred to as “left atrial flutter.” These patients are treated temporarily with medications and the left atrial flutter sometimes goes away on its own within a few months. If it does not, you may need a second catheter ablation procedure to eliminate the flutter. In these cases, the overall success rate is approximately 75-85 percent. If the atrial fibrillation has been persistent for more than 1-2 years, almost all patients will require more than one ablation procedure before a normal heart rhythm is restored.

umcvc.org/conditions-treatm...

Reply
Aufgeblassen

Here's another:

Catheter ablation -in general- is a highly effective and “curative” intervention for a broad spectrum of supraventricular and ventricular arrhythmias. After a successful procedure eliminating a simple arrhythmia substrate, the recurrence rate is low and the short term success correlates well with the long term freedom from the arrhythmia.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Reply
Shcldavies

Yes that is just what I am saying, many arrhythmia's can be cured (Aflutter for example) but many cannot, they can only be helped, some times this help can appear to cure it for a time, maybe for the rest of a person life but AF is one of those conditions that cannot be cured. If you had Aflutter then you are probably cured, however if you had AF you have most likely still got it and the ablation cured your symptoms. You are one of the lucky ones, please read the posts about AF on this site or look at the fact sheet on AF, it will confirm what I am saying.

Reply
Aufgeblassen

They ALL can be cured one way or another. Worst case scenario, is it is cured with so much ablation that HR is too low, and a pacemaker is then needed. But at least the AF is GONE forever.

Personally, I'd rather have a normal life if it meant requiring a pacemaker, that "live" (I use the term loosely) with AF. If I had to live with AF, I'd be confined to a wheelchair, as it is too risky to walk any significant distance. Others may feel different. Fully their choice.

Reply
dleppard60

You could try a whole food plant based diet. My EP says it doesn't matter if you have AF or not if you don't trigger it. He says a whole food plant based diet without caffeine, alcohol or sugar will prevent almost all triggers.

Reply
sugarisit

I have come to about the same conclusion as you, over 13 or 14 years of closely observing my body and diet. I can easily make my heart Afib whenever I want, and can turn it off whenever I want, simply by my diet and food I choose to eat (although I can turn Afib on in a couple hours it takes a day or two to turn it off). Here is a cut-and-paste of what I have found:

--------------------------------------------

After 9 years of trying different foods and logging EVERYTHING I ate, I found sugar (and to a lesser degree, salt – i.e. dehydration) was triggering my Afib. Doctors don't want to hear this - there is no money in telling patients to eat less sugar. Each person has a different sugar threshold - and it changes as you get older, so you need to count every gram of sugar you eat every day (including natural sugars in fruits, etc.). My tolerance level was 190 grams of sugar per day 8 years ago, 85 grams a year and a half ago, and 60 grams today, so AFIB episodes are more frequent and last longer. If you keep your intake of sugar below your threshold level your AFIB will not happen again (easier said than done of course). It's not the food - it's the sugar (or salt - see below) IN the food that's causing your problems. Try it and you will see - should only take you 1 or 2 months of trial-and-error to find your threshold level. And for the record - ALL sugars are treated the same (honey, refined, agave, natural sugars in fruits, etc.). I successfully triggered AFIB by eating a bunch of plums and peaches one day just to test it out. In addition, I have noticed that moderate exercise (7-mile bike ride or 5-mile hike in the park) often puts my Afib heart back in to normal rhythm a couple hours later. Don’t know why – perhaps you burn off the excess sugars in your blood/muscles or sweat out excess salt??

Also, in addition to sugar, if you are dehydrated - this will trigger AFIB as well. It seems (but I have no proof of this) that a little uptick of salt in your blood is being treated the same as an uptick of sugar - both cause AFIB episodes. (I’m not a doctor – it may be the sugar in your muscles/organs and not in your blood, don’t know). In any case you have to keep hydrated, and not eat too much salt. The root problem is that our bodies are not processing sugar/salt properly and no doctor knows why, but the AFIB seems to be a symptom of this and not the primary problem, but medicine is not advanced enough to know the core reason that causes AFIB at this time. You can have a healthy heart and still have Afib – something inside us is triggering it when we eat too much sugar or get (even a little) dehydrated. Find out the core reason for this and you will be a millionaire and make the cover of Time Magazine! Good luck! - Rick Hyer

Reply
Shcldavies

Thank you, thats a very detailed process you have done with really useful and informed conclusions, more importantly an effective conclusions in your case. To me thats proof you are right for your condition. I also believe that there is more that one imbalance that can cause arrhythmia and getting them right for someones particular condition is not easy. This is well worth knowing.

Reply
sugarisit

Oh, one other thing - I am working on a root cause of Afib. So far it is showing signs of working, but I need another month or two to know for sure. Give me your email address and I will add you to my distribution list of folks to notify if this works. If it works for me it might work for others and I would love others to try it. If 10 of us can get it to work, we need to shout it out as loud as we can to every doctor, researcher and academician we know - perhaps word will reach a person that knows of a research project that can be put together.

My address is RickHyer@outlook.com

Reply
Horse57
Horse57
in reply to sugarisit

Please add me ! my email is Pamrupp@earthlink.net

Reply
LaceyLady

BP - what is normal for younger adults, will not be normal for older ones, children are different too (sucking eggs) 😜 So, why do they want to regularise to a ‘low BP’?? The BP fluctuates all day. Worrying about it make is worse 😂

Reply
Shcldavies

There is no conclusive answer but the best thing to do is go to youtube type "yorkcardiology" in the search box, there will be around 30 videos from Dr Gupta, a Cardiologist from York Hospital, one of them is about BP and will explain your concerns well. From memory the video is fairly recent (within the last 6 months) - I think.

Reply
Coeurdelion

Hi,

I agree with everything you have written

I do not wish to bear the side effects of the medicines and tablets. I believe the vagus nerve is involved.

I believe that tests are currently being undertaken in the UK using a piece of kit that sends electrical impulses to the vagus nerve. Apparently this is attached to the earlobe and has been used for treatment of other diseases and there has been some success.

I believe Barts hospital was recently recruiting. This has been discussed on this forum before. I await with hope.

Reply
Shcldavies

Thank you, thats good news, at least there is some research thats looking for a cure.

Reply
Horse57

This is very interesting to me because prior to my ablation I would say things like fish oil or coconut oil or certain other things would set my atrial fib off. Everyone would tell me no that can’t be because fish oil was good for the heart. But I read an article about fish oil collecting in the atrium of the heart and that it can possibly cause irritation if you will. I am always anemic and I didn’t really put the two together until after my ablation ,

I plan on really working on the situation with my anemia it is a genetic disorder and so I have to stay after it. I don’t know or recall anyone in my family that had atrial fib but then again maybe they didn’t know or it was just a Quote” heart rhythm issue”

I agree with your premise that it is a reaction to the wrong stimulus. When a person has too much alcohol it causes a fib when we have an adrenaline rush it causes a fib when we have too much of something it can cause a fib. But the question is why does it happen with some people and not others?

I know even now that I’ve had my ablation and I’m not having any a fib at all or palpitations or flatter or anything I am very careful to watch what I take in my body because I know that was the trigger before even though it was something as benign as fish oil or coconut oil. For some people they can’t drink cold water, and actually I experience that as well, and I do not drink cold water.

So even if we know that there are triggers and there are stimulus that the heart reacts to and then again the heart reacts and goes into a fib for no good reason just sitting on the couch watching a movie can set it off but that might go to your theory about calcium sodium and potassium issues.

I am with you I hope that it gets figured out sooner than later so that ablation and harsh heart medications can be a thing of the past!

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to Horse57

Thank you, its all very interesting stuff with many opinions, all very real and true for their particular condition. Thankfully the vast majority are of like mind with us so there must be something in it.

Reply
barbly1

I find the replies that talk about aging as the cause of afib interesting, as I am now in the Ornish Lifestyle Medicine program getting some great info about how our life habits including stress, diet with meat, dairy and sugar, lack of exercise and lack of love/interconnectedness with others causes our bodies to age, not the passage of years themselves. Ornish says scientific studies prove that your genes can be upregulated or downregulated based on these factors, so that you can either make yourself vulnerable to or safe from diseases such as breast, colon and prostate cancers, and new research is showing that this program can help you increase the length of your telomeres, (which shorten with normal aging) so that you can actually reverse aging and the loss of mental acuity. Isn't there research showing that there is a genetic component to afib? If so, is it possible that those with bad Western diets and high stress for instance, have upregulated the genes responsible for afib? If so, I would fall under that category, having been a career public defender in prisons and courts about 12 hours a day through my career, operating at stress factor 50 day in and day out, slamming tons of caffeine, and eating lots of dairy, meat, and especially sugar. To relieve the stress, I totally over-exercised, heavy workouts each day, lots of fast cardio and weightlifting. With afib, I didn't have it until I did. Maybe I reached a point where those genes responsible were upregulated. Now, one year post ablation, which corrected the afib, (but still on Flecainide for lots of ectopics). I will be interested to see how things change for me during this nine-week program. Is it possible that this is what is going on? That could explain why afib is more prevalent in some cultures than others, and why older people get it more than younger people, though not exclusively so.

1 like
Reply
secondtry
secondtry
in reply to barbly1

Very interesting, please keep us informed how it goes.

1 like
Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to barbly1

Thank you thats interesting

1 like
Reply
macdongr

I do not have the knowledge to answer you intelligently.

However, I had Afib. I have no structural issues with my heart. I lost 25 pounds and started generic klonipin, .5mg x 2 daily. It has changed my life.

Doctors are loth to prescribe the drug because of its potential for abuse, so good luck persuading them.

Best of luck

Reply
researchx
researchx
in reply to macdongr

Ya, wow-how did you do that?I wonder if you can take it forever. I was on low dose benzos for yrs ,but just for sleep. They make you relax so nicely,great for spasms,but they are a sched 4 drug and mine got halted after my dr decided my heart could go without it. At first she was worried I was going to have a vent arythmia and okd the benzo(mine was xanax)Then I'm sure she was was told that that is a no no by the administration.Her exact words were-we dont do that here!I had a cardiologist prescribe it before my arythmia was even found-but he said Id have get refills from primary care dr.He said he didnt have a prob taking it forever!when I told that to the administration-they said maybe he isnt aware of the problems they cause. Drs dont think alike,and I know for a fact some of them take these meds

Reply
Shcldavies

Thank you, thats interesting, I have not heard of the drug, what does it do?

Reply
macdongr
macdongr
in reply to Shcldavies

Klonipin is a long-acting anxiolytic

Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to macdongr

Thank you I will see what I can find out about it.

Reply
macdongr

Thanks for the reply. The generic version is Clonazepam

Xanax is too short acting and potentially far more addictive. Klonipin is longer acting and it has less addiction potential for that reason.

The Russians use it for Afibers and swear by the treatment.

What is essential, I hear, is no heart disease at baseline and not being obese (body mass less index of less than 30)--overweight is OK.

I have not had an Afib episode in 30 months. I am 77.

Good luck talking about this with doctors. Maybe they will the give you a chance. What's to lose?

Yes, I can take if forever. If it becomes less effective over time, a third pill at noon is OK, too.

They have done some interesting research with doses from 1-5 mg/day with the same result for about 61% of their patients.

Good luck, if it sounds right for you.

Reply
Aufgeblassen

I think you mean clorazepam.

Reply
macdongr

It is spelled with an "n" on my bottle; it is the generic version of Klonipin

Reply
S11m

I have Bradycardia AF, so the causes/triggers might be different, but gluten is trigger for me.

Cardiologist Kim Rajappan says gluten is a know trigger.

Reply
secondtry

Thank you. My view is the heart is behaving normally and there is no one cure to find. Lifestyle changes I feel are the most important approach and I wish I had visited my Naturopath first. I think the causes are in most cases a multitude of issues until you reach one too much (different for each person), tipping you into AF. I have thrown 'the kitchen sink' at my 'cure' including Big Pharma and for 5 years it has been successful. Best wishes

Reply
Shcldavies

Yes I agree

Reply
Aufgeblassen

Ablation is a cure. Then you need not worry about phantom triggers. You are immuned in effect.

Reply
macdongr
macdongr
in reply to secondtry

I agree. It is a multitude of issues and you have to find the best answer for yourself.

Reply
sadieflynn

Ever had a root canal? Check out the documentary "Root Cause". On Utube for $3.99 US.

I had Afib for 3 years! Always going to emergency room couple times a month. Rest of the time was spent in bed. It also morphed into SVT, then Sick Sinus Syndrome. I had all 3.

I was one week away from getting a pace maker at the end. Because i was blacking out a lot from heart stopping up to 7 seconds.

A dentist had told me to get that documentary. When they were going to almost force me to get a pacemaker, I finally made the effort, and had those root canals removed- THE PROPER WAY - approx. 4 months ago, every symptom of all those issues have gone! completely!, Not even one flutter, since! Feel totally normal. Strong, sleep well, no fears of going to social events, etc!

All this IS connected to the Vagus Nerve! Don't believe this is true? I dare anyone sceptical to go on Utube and watch the documentary!

I am LIVING PROOF! My cardiologist, Electrophysiologist, and Primary Care Physician are all dumbfounded. They didn't believe it would work at first. Now are happily convinced!! And happy for me and have all told me that I have totally normal heart activity again!

I've posted about this right after I had procedure done - very economically also - apparently it sounded too good to be true. What do you have to lose? $3.99 US.

BTW Netflix had it but the dental industry forced them to remove it. It was destroying their revenue streams - their major one.

One more point - Root Canals also cause intestinal major issues as well as many other hard to diagnose health issues. Which typically only the symptoms get treated with meds because they do not know what the real problem is.

I have made this same reply to others on this feed.

ROOT CANALS CAN IRRITATE THE VAGUS NERVE AND CREATE AFIB, SVT, SICK SINUS SYNDROME, ETC.

I'm just grateful I did not submit to having an ablation!!

Reply
secondtry

Thank you, I will check this out, so pleased your efforts paid off.

Reply
Shcldavies

Thank you, very interesting

Reply
wyo19

Wow! What a thread. Thank you for bringing up the topic, I think of this often. My situation seems different than most of the comments I have read. I do not have Afib but rather Ventricular Tachycardia, triggered by activity/ exertion. Hard to condense my experience but here is my attempt at brevity.

I am a 34 year old female. Very active for work and for play. I am an avid hiker, my work involves hiking with chainsaw several miles and clearing trail. I drink alcohol and caffeine but I am a very healthy eater with lots of veggies, fruit, whole foods and minimal refined food. I make most food from scratch.

When I was 29 while in Argentina I experienced a rapid rhythm while hiking a big mountain pass. I didn't know at the time it was Ventricular Tachycardia (Vtach)

I came back to the US and saw a cardiologist who gave me a 3 day halter monitor. I hiked steep mountains every day and could not provoke the rhythm. So dead end and felt I did my part to check it out so called it good.

I continued to hike and be active, and this rhythm happened very randomly. Not all the time, just occasionally and I wasn't bothered by it. I would simply stop my hiking and wait for my heartbeat to return to normal.

Fast forward 4 years and the rhythm became more frequent. Instead of a rarity- every time I would hike/ exert energy / raise my HR I would go into the rhythm.

Got a monitor again- this time for 30 days. Every time I went hiking I provoked the rhythm. Then it was finally documented that I was having Non Sustained Ventricular Tachycardia. (NSVT)

MRI's, Nuclear imaging, and x rays- I had good valves, sound structure to my heart, no blockages etc. my resting HR is in the low 50's. Initially the Cardiologist said we could treat my NSVT with ablation.

Went to see an EP- he disagreed. said my Vtach was polymorphic (coming from many places) and therefore ablation wasn't an option. He diagnosed me with CPVT- basically adrenaline enduced VTach. If the Vtach is sustained, I would go into cardiac arrest. I was put on Flecainide. Had stress tests and it seemed the flec was keeping the Vtach at bay. No episodes.

CPVT is genetic and no doctors at the hospital I was at had seen it in a patient before. Got a second opinion from another EP at a different hospital. He didn't believe my Vtach was polymorphic.. I should note here that I also started having PVC's regularly around this time of diagnosis when I hadn't had them before. New EP thinks it is RVOT VT (Right Ventricular Outflow Track VT). This, he says is from a hardening or fat deposit in my heart that causes a "force" and prevents my heart from beating correctly when I start increasing my HR (activity) and could potentially get worse (which mine seemingly was.. increasing in prevalence)

Interestingly enough, these two doctors are now at the same hospital and will have a chance to compare notes. I am going to an appointment next week and will see if they have any new theories.

So much for Brevity!

I am constantly wondering if there is an underlying cause, not my heart that causes the Vtach. I am currently on Flecainide and high dose magnesium. My Vtach is controlled but I don't push myself as much physically :( I still have pretty constant PVC's, especially when I am hiking and this is my biggest bother, in addition to hating taking meds (flec makes me dizzy and I just hate taking meds)

This is mostly just an overview of my situation- rather than contributing any thoughts on what the root cause is--- would love any perspective if there is someone who has heard of similar situation..

Best,

Kara

Reply
Shcldavies

Thank you, that was a good summary and pretty much standard for the condition. In my experience (please see my posts on ablation) the Docs do not really know until they have done an EP study (it confirmed the Flecainide caused my ventricular problems with Aflutter). What is evident is that your heart is irritated to behave in the way it is. What is causing it is difficult to say without an EP study. The Docs will try to treat the symptoms, I would look at best endeavour catch all treatment for whatever the cause may be, try drinking more water especially very first thing in the morning, ensure you get enough potassium, magnesium (the right kind), iron, vitamin D and do not take or limit your take of any PPIs. Perhaps even reduce your sodium and calcium intake. Breathing exercises can also help.

Reply
wyo19
wyo19
in reply to Shcldavies

Thanks for your response. Doc's are definitely uncertain about what my condition is provoked by, so I am open to many venues of treatment. I will say I drink a LOT of water. Always have 3-4 liters per day, But I would also like to consider a high quality/ low sugar electrolyte supplement to add to my water, if you have a brand suggestion please let me know. I don't take any PPI's. Currently only on flec and magnesium. I went off the flec for a week and was on a rate medicine (verapamil) and I went into Vtach while on a mild hike...so back on the flec, seemed to be working to prevent my vtach while active. Thanks again for this thread!

Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to wyo19

Yes Flec does work very well for most on here. Have you always drank that much water, I ask as I think someone else on here said that too much water can give you too much blood volume and that can stretch the heart - I don't know if that was based on opinion or if there was some substance behind it, may be worth checking out, if I see something I will let you know. If your exercising regularly then I guess you need it, but if your have cut back then it may be too much water that may be irritating your heart ??

Reply
wyo19
wyo19
in reply to Shcldavies

Thanks again for the reply. I have always drank quite a bit of water due to my activity level. If I cut back I feel dehydrated..maybe that is because I am so used to it..either way, when I don't have too much activity I lessen water intake slightly. I will be seeing my doc this week and hoping he will suggest an electrolyte supplement.

Reply
Suebo2

So essentially the body is good and it is what we are doing to it and how it reacts that is the cause?

Reply
Shcldavies
Shcldavies
in reply to Suebo2

I don’t really know but that fits with my condition and there is some circumstantial evidence to support it. What does appear to be happening is that the vast amount of the research is focused on treating the symptoms rather than the cause.

Reply

You may also like...