Fibrillating blood vessels

[GrannyE]

Why do the blood vessels leading to the heart fib in the first place? What makes them fire off impulses out of sync? I can understand that when they do those impulses have to be stopped from reaching the heart, which is what I understand ablation does. It seems to me that if we knew the root cause then maybe we could stop it happening or at the very least prevent other people from getting it.

Something must have set it off. Shock? Diet? Stress? But many people have stress and shocks without getting it.

Is anyone researching the origins of this? We have such wonderful technology nowadays that we can see what is happening at the cellular level and we know that diet over many years can cause all sorts of diseases such as MS and arthritis etc.

Seems to me we are just treating the symptoms not the cause.

[jeanjeannie50]

I agree with you totally GrannyE. I'm afraid there's no money to be made in finding a cure, only with bringing out more efficient pills.

The one exception to this ,I would guess though, is the British Heart Foundation which is a charity and not funded by any medical companies.

I'm afraid this world, right now, is mostly governed by greed.

Jean

[GrannyE in reply to jeanjeannie50]

I agree. I don’t suppose there is any money in it. We would all stop taking the pills if we were cured wouldn’t we?

[jeanjeannie50 in reply to GrannyE]

I have to say that I've done that countless times in the past (stopped taking my pills). Yes, even my anticoagulants, but I was young and foolish then and didn't really understand how important they were. It's only since coming on to this site many years ago that I've learned all I know now.

I long to stop taking them though, not so much my Warfarin, but my Flec and Metoprolol. I feel sure they cure one thing , but then damage you elsewhere in the body! So they slow down the heart, what other organs do they slow down I wonder? Three times I've stopped my Flec and Metoprolol and have had about 6 months completely AF free each time. Not that I recommend others do that, as their heart function when in AF may be different to mine.

I have to take drugs right now as I'm having a cardioversion on 8th October. The AF nurses said that the reason it came back was because I stopped the drugs, but I find that hard to believe. If I needed them why would it take 6 months for the AF to come back. Once I stopped taking them when in gentle AF and my heart went back into sinus rhythm within two days.

Jean

[BobD Volunteer]

Firstly your description is over simplified. The veins them selves to not fibrillate at all.

Every cell within the heart has the ability to contract and tell its neighbour to do likewise. This is self survival at it's best. Normally this action is controlled by signals from the AV node which is the heart's natural pacemaker situated in the right atrium. The signal moves across to the left atrium causing it to contract amd move blood down into the left ventricle which then contracts and pushes blood out into the aorta and thus round the body.

For some reason in some people and especially when we get older, the area of the heart around the four pulmonary viens but not exclusively this area takes it upon itself to send random signal which cause the left atrium to fibrillate rather than pump in an organised manner.

We know that stretching of the left atrium caused by over exercise and the strain on the heart from obesity amongst other things such as alcohol can trigger this effect but it is also a factor of ageing. In fact until say 25 years ago AF was accepted as part of growing old and seldom treated. It was only when it was realised that so many people were having strokes caused by AF that the medical profession started to look into stopping symptoms by drugs and more recntly by ablation techniques, that people have been routinely treated for AF.

More recently younger people who are not athletes are being found to have AF so the focus moved from old age to other possibilities for why this anomally occurs. Some studies have found that certain families of drugs such as NSAIDs like ibuprofen can cause the problem as can being over wieght and having a diet too reliant on meat products and processed foods. Weight loss with a BMI of less than 25 has been shown to drastically reduce AF burden but of course there will always be racing snakes with AF so that is just one of many causes.

Why do we get it? Why do we need glasses or a hearing aid? Why do we get any condition? The body is a wonderful thing which is working perfectly 99.9% of the time. There are countless conditons and diseases which medical science can control and in some cases cure yet have no idea why they occur . They look all the time without success. Why should AF be any different?

[7164 in reply to BobD]

Bob

Such knowledge and help to us all.

Has anyone ever looked at a relationship from lack of intrinsic factor and B12 ? I have this problem ?

B12 shortage increases the chance of stroke ? I am told I have a 0 chad score even though I am overweight. Should I be on anti platelet meds ? In your opinion. I know you are not a medic But !!!

thanks

Rod

[BobD Volunteer in reply to 7164]

As you say Rod I'm not a medic but I know B12 is a tricky one as too much can be as bad as too little.

Chadvasc is a better scoring system than Chads but neither include any score for being over weight. High blood pressure even when controlled by drugs, diebetes, prior stroke, age, gender, heart disease etc all have scores so you need to consider the affect being overweight has on those . For exaample it can increase the chance of high blood pressure and diebetes.

Antiplatelets have no place in stroke prevention for AF in any event as their effect is minimal whilst having the potential to harm (internal bleeding) so if you need protection it must be anticoagulation.

[7164 in reply to BobD]

Bob

Thank you

[Pacific in reply to BobD]

Excellent reply Bob. I was told by a medical oncologist, also on the Stamford Hospital Tumor Board in California, that my Adriamycin , given intravenously, triggered my first episode of AF. It was part of my cancer chemo regimen in 2004. I was 51. It wasn’t until 2007 that it became more frequent. I had a TIA in 2015 in UK when I was 62. The US and the UK’s guidelines set the age of 65 for anticoagulation.

[BobD Volunteer in reply to Pacific]

Age is only the A in CHADSVASC so there are lots of other criteria. If you have no other co morbidities and are below 65 your score is 0 or 1 when you reach that age so yes in theory anticoagulation may not be offered but few people with AF have no co-morbidities if they are honest. There are people (myself included )who believe that AF should mean anticoagulation but most doctors seem far too scared of bleeds to accept this.

[GrannyE in reply to BobD]

Thank you Bob.

One thing I know for sure it is def not obesity or sugar or processed foods which triggered it! Could have been the anaemia (through taking prescribed Omeprazole) or stress but it started about a year after the anaemia had been dealt with. Could have its roots way back 36 years ago with the ME/Chronic fatigue syndrome. (Too many antibotics damaging my mitochondria and the microbiome) I guess it will forever remain an mystery.

[Barny12]

Very interesting post. If I understand you correctly you're saying that the source of the problem can be issues with the spine?

[Ianp66]

Now got me wondering, ad I had a bike accident in 2000, badly damaging my spine l5 s1, had issues for years since surgery and was on 600mg of brufen for over 7 years as part of pain management. Now thinking a strong link.

[7164]

Barbara

Defo interesting theory.

My Afib started after I tried to do a self house move (at 60 yrs). I am sure I felt a pop or a rip. Then it all started. I can cycle to work and not get an Afib but if I play golf it will start ??

Alcohol starts it as well ? Can't make the link .

Rod

[GrannyE in reply to 7164]

I have got used to my golf triggering it sometimes. Doing too much does it for me but you cannot sit around all day can you?

[PietBesem]

Hi GrannyE. You started an excellent string of posts! I agree with you and come from a place near jeanjeannie50 that despite the cleverness of western medicine we don't know why. That's why I am interested in Ayurvedic medicine - which regards and treats arrythmias as a "vata" problem. And in classical Chinese acupuncture which has given me excellent results without the costs of ablation and risks of drugs. And thanks BobD and baraba for taking the time to post on the manifest details.

[LaceyLady]

Interesting about spinal connection and I’m not surprised, having been a Complementary Therapist of many years. Wondered if there many be any differences between spinal conditions. I’ve had SVT for at least 10 years, may be a bit longer, I have had spinal traumas. My much younger sister has now at 50 is having SVT! She has had a spinal trauma through car accident, but I’m wondering if it is inherited.

[Kiwicoan]

Very interesting baraba. Thank you.

I agree 100%. I suffered from exercise enduced Afib for 5 years and after a failed ablation my Afib came back with a vengeance. I finally gave in after doing my own research and rather than going in for a second “touch up” ablation I visited a chiropractor. Since January I have been Afib and Tachycardia free. My fortnightly chiropractor visits consists of T1-3 and cervical vertebra manipulation. I am on no meds. I cannot stress enough how much relief from symptomatic Afib I have gained! The Vagus nerve can play a huge part in triggering Afib.

[GrannyE]

Thank you for that.

I had never thought that it might be connected with the spine but what you say makes sense. Over many years I have had my spine clicked back into place quite a number of times. Luckily at the moment it is fine which I believe is partly due to the marine collagen and the turmeric - and what a relief it is to be free of back pain. The heart problems started 6months after stopping taking an Ibuprofen about twice a week and the A/F about a year after that.

[GrannyE]

Need to look up Vata. I have had acupuncture for pain in the ankle,hip, and leg which has helped but my doctor only does acupuncture for pain relief not for heart problems etc. Would not know where to go for chinese acupuncture.