Natural afib treatments

[darnick64]

Has any one out there used wenxin keli to treat afib and if so what were the results. I am searching for a natural alternative. I do not like taking rat poisin to thin my blood, so i also need to find out how to calculate dosage on natural food blood thinners. Thank you for any input.

[doodle68]

Hi Darnick I would be wary when buying Chinese 'natural remedies', they don't always contain what they purport to contain . I would also discuss any substance you are considering taking with your GP in case it conflicts with any medication you are already taking.

Sorry to sound negative, as I see it the main problem with AF is the possibility of having a blood clot and the medication we take to prevent that happening is not really something to be supplemented with dubious herbal remedies.

[darnick64 in reply to doodle68]

I appreciate your concern and will continue meds and testing until I figure this out.

[doodle68 in reply to darnick64]

Darnic have you seen this an interesting video by Sanjay Gupta on Natural Blood thinners...

youtube.com/watch?v=Lb0qjQa...(Not working as expected?)

[Beancounter Volunteer]

To my knowledge there is no way to calculate dosage of any "natural" anti coagulant, you will understand that warfarin can be measured only because it is a Vitamin K inhibitor, and therefore a test has been designed for it. Other anti coagulants work on different parts of the very complex coagulation process, and for example NOACs have no immediately available test for their effectiveness. (there is a complex laboratory test but it's not necessary for people to undergo this)

You will also understand that as most of these supplements are not produced under medical conditions or standards, they will vary in strength from batch to batch and from provider to provider. The "mg" on the side of any container is highly unlikely to be a true measure of any effective ingredient.

It is of course your choice, but given that you will be taking a product of unknown dosage, and unknown effectiveness, you could be either completely unprotected from the stroke risk, or maybe worse over anti-coagulated and have a bleed risk. Please also ask a pharmacist to check for interaction with any other drugs you are taking.

I wish you well

Ian

[BobD Volunteer]

Just to add a small point here, anticoagulants do not thin blood they slow down the clotting process. Many other things such as alcohol may thin blood as you put it but may not act as anticoagulants. Aspirin for example is an anti-platelet which makes the blood less sticky but it is not an anticoagulant and is not suitable for preventing strokes whilst having the potential to cause harm in the form of internal bleeding. By the way Warfarin has not been used as a rat poison for years now. Giving a Vit k inhibitor soaked into Vit K rich grain was never a good idea!

[Finvola]

There is no test which will determine the efficacy of natural substances which have an anti-clotting ability whereas Warfarin's effectiveness is measurable and has a long history of clinical usage.

We have AF, therefore we may have a risk of serious stroke. It seems strange to me that there is a reluctance to take 'medical' anticoagulants but there seems to be an idea that 'natural' anticoagulants are OK.

Way too risky in my opinion.

[meadfoot]

Very interesting, thank you.

[Slattery]

Mead foot,

Most Afib sites do not like the idea of alternatives anticoagulants. I am taking Nattokinase which is a natural anticoagulant with the help of my Cardiologist. Find a doctor that will work with you on alternative medicine. It is always a good idea to question the medication you are putting into your body!!

[meadfoot in reply to Slattery]

Hi Slattery, my response was to Goldis comment. It's Darnic asking about alternatives not me. Think it's just where my response was shown on the list.

I am on conventional anticoagulants but have an open mind to whatever people think is right for them. All we can all do is research get expert advice and make the best decision. Pleased you have a cardiologist with a wide ranging view and you are happy with your natural anticoagulant.

[doodle68]

Hi Goldie thank you an interesting read in your link

It seems wenxin keli is an anti arrhythmic and nothing to do with anti coagulation so is not the alternative Darnics seeks in his post.

So even if Darnics takes the WXKL an anticoagulant will still be needed if he has already been prescribed one.

[Elaine1951]

I take hawthorn and magnesium. However I am not a current AF sufferer but have had two episodes only. After those I did take apixaban.

I take the Hawthorne and magnesium as preventative . Nothing else. I understand why resistance to anti coag but def def understand why important to take if s person has af episodes frequently.

[Arveno]

Elaine, may I ask why are you using Hawtorne?

[RoyM]

I agree with always looking for alternatives to scientific medicines...but to be honest when you can't measure a natural remedy and it's effectiveness it's very much guess work......I would think playing Russian roulette with our lifes is putting the stakes very high and is certainly not for me...but if it is a risk worth taking for you....I would like to wish you good luck. Roy

[Omniscient1]

As has been noted elsewhere I think you're looking for 2 things.

On wenxin keli - its a pharmaceutical based on a combination of herbs which according to the literature is a recent anti-arrhythmia, anti AF drug. This academic literature sounds OK, but the problem for us here is that reputable UK-based TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) outlets won't have heard of it - because its not traditional... I know this because I have asked around and drawn many blanks.

Then you're down to internet pharmacies, and for me personally that's a bridge too far, especially when you will have to self-medicate and so on alongside the normal pharma you may be taking. When I looked I could not find a non-Chinese pharmacy that stocked it. I've tried many (most) of the holistic cures on myself and if I could buy this from Boots I'd have a go but that would indicate a level of safety that's not there currently.

Last thought - its quite a recent thing and if its any good then it will appear here.

On using rat poison for your anti-coags, I've never come across anything out there in holistic land that is a replacement for pharma anti-coagulants. Also due to the invisible nature of their effects (you cant tell if they're working or not) I wouldn't trust them as holistic medicines have variable effects at the best of times. As someone else has done I refer you to the videos of Dr Gupta on Youtube. He is very good and a smidge controversial on AF & Strokes etc.

And as always, good luck

Gary.

[Plantwords]

You ask two questions: (1)AF treatment using natural remedies; and, (2)thinning blood. Firstly, naturopathic remedies for heart issues should only be taken under the care of an experienced naturopath. I have used naturopathic remedies to treat my AF, both Chinese herbals and western herbals. I have had some benefit but not enough. I eventually had a PVI ablation last year. I have always been skeptical about the quality of Chinese herbals and my naturopath sourced these very carefully. I used several different herbs for AF including Dan Shen and Terminalia Arjuna. There are naturopathic remedies which are effective anti-coagulants/anti-thrombotics. That said, one's overall health and severity of AF needs to guide what you do. I would not proceed without professional guidance from a naturopath and I would discuss such treatment with my EP. Another consideration is the fact if you need emergency care, the medical doctors likely will not know a thing about herbal remedies but will know about beta blockers and Xarelto. This became a consideration for me continuing with herbals as my AF got worse. Take care.

Steven

[Amydandy]

Are you only opposed Warfarin/Coumadin becauae it was once used to kill rats? There are newer prescription anti couagulants that have been studied, that don't work the same way Warfarin does. "The newer alternatives are Dabigatran (Pradaxa), approved in 2010; Rivaroxaban (Xarelto), approved in 2011; and Apixaban (Eliquis), approved in 2012.

Q: How do they differ from Coumadin in the way they work?

A: Eliquis, Xarelto, Pradaxa and Coumadin are all anticoagulants and inhibit clot growth and propagation by inactivating clotting factors, but they act on different steps in the clotting cascade. Eliquis and Xarelto are both Factor Xa inhibitors and Pradaxa is a Direct Thrombin Inhibitor. Thombin is an enzyme that facilitates the clotting of blood and Pradaxa acts directly on this enzyme, whereas Eliquis and Xarelto work on the clotting Factor Xa that precedes this enzyme in the clotting cascade. It is important to understand there is a clear distinction between the newer agents."

[CatAnn]

Thank you for this, hoping it will help others. I suffered from having 13,000+ PVC's a day and 140+ PAC's....I researched for months and found supplements that really help! I am down to about 12 PVC's a day and when they start, they quickly stop! Unlike before when I would have to go to the ER thinking I was dying. Doc gave me beta blockers, digoxin and calcium channel blockers but after BB made me feel HORRIBLE and like I couldn't breath, I searched and searched....I take a LOT of supplements a day, but it's worth it!!

[mincde in reply to CatAnn]

Which supplements help you?

[CatAnn in reply to mincde]

L-Arginine 500 mg; Taurine 1,000 mg; CoQ 100 mg; Magnesium (specific blend for cardiac support) 100 mg; L-Carnitine 500 mg. I also sip 1 K-Lyte in a huge glass of water daily (Potassium). And I KNOW this combo works (not only from the research papers I spent a couple of months reading (I have posted them all somewhere on this website for the nay sayers...LOL!) because for example, I took them all at 11:30 pm last night before bed. I should have taken them again as soon as I woke up at 8 am, but I waited to take the first dose at 11:00 am (4 X a day at 4 hour intervals apart 3 X with meals and then 1 X before bed with 1/2 orange - something light in my stomach). BIG MISTAKE FOR ME TODAY!! STUPID ME!! I had palps off the chart until 3:00 when I finally had 2 doses saturated in me...now I am fine again!!! Spent 2 hours crying...this has been going on for years!!...and now I'm perfect! Now, I still get anywhere from 5 - 12 SHORT palps a day with the supplements, but that is totally manageable!!! Some days like yesterday I had none!! RARE!! I guess I got to confident and pushed it a bit this morning...I think part of me is like, NAH!! That stuff ain't working!! LOL!!! Just a note: THIS WORKS FOR ME. I AM NOT SUGGESTING ANYONE ELSE DO WHAT I AM DOING. I AM NOT A DOCTOR (although I did complete half of med school and was an autopsy assistant for 5 years...) SO DO WHATEVER WORKS FOR YOU!! It took about 2-3 weeks to start to work for me, so it takes some time to get into your system, I think. Thank you! X0

[CatAnn]

Hey, I just found some research about Wenxin Keli that it helps PVC's too!! I'm going to do some more research!! I told my cardiologist about taking supplements and he told me to stop. WTF??? No, I won't be stopping, thank you very much!! Your crappy med made me feel awful and you want me to stop taking supplements that do what you couldn't for me??? NOPE! Lots of nay sayers everywhere....I'm a believer now. Everyone needs to do what is best for them, just to note...but there are other options besides traditional meds.

[CatAnn]

Methods:

We performed a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, parallel-group, multicenter trial. A total of 1200 eligible participants were randomly assigned in a ratio of 1:1 to receive Wenxin Keli or the placebo for 4 weeks. The primary and secondary endpoint was the change of PVC numbers and PVC-related symptoms after a 4-week treatment compared with baseline, respectively. In addition, vital signs, laboratory values, and electrocardiographic parameters were assessed in a safety analysis.

Results:

At the initial evaluation, no significant differences in the baseline characteristics were observed between the Wenxin Keli group and the placebo group. A smaller number of PVCs was observed after the 4-week treatment than at baseline, in both the Wenxin Keli group (5686 ± 5940 vs. 15,138 ± 7597 beats/d, P < 0.001) and the placebo group (10,592 ± 8009 vs. 14,529 ± 5929 beats/d, P < 0.001); moreover, the Wenxin Keli group demonstrated a significantli greater reduction in the frequency of PVCs than the placebo group (P < 0.001). In a full analysis set, patients in the Wenxin Keli group exhibited significantly higher total effective responses in the reduction of PVCs compared to those in the placebo group (83.8% vs. 43.5%, P < 0.001). The per-protocol analysis yielded similar results (83.0% vs. 39.3%, P < 0.001). Treatment with Wenxin Keli also demonstrated superior performance compared to the placebo with respect to PVC-related symptoms. No severe adverse effects attributable to Wenxin Keli were reported.

Conclusions:

Wenxin Keli treatment effectively reduced the overall number of PVCs and alleviated PVC-related symptoms in patients without structural heart diseases and had no severe side effects.

[Alemo27]

It is not respond. Here is my question

For an arrhythmia i am taking bisoprolol as PRN .2.5 mg .

I have noticed lately that sometimes after taking Eliquis mandatory twice a day 2.5 mg arrythmia started , and I have to take bisoprolol .wander if it is side effect from Eliquis.

And I am concern for how long should I be on Eliquis.

Cardiologist is reluctant to explain Perhaps, somebody know the answer.Thank you

[Sparky143 in reply to Alemo27]

What does THAT tell you! Sheesh!

[Sparky143]

🙌🏾