does anyone take a more healthier approach to treating their a fib instead of taking a blood thinner taking more natural things like fish oil, vitamin E, turmeric, cinnamon.
Healthy Afib tips : does anyone take a... - Atrial Fibrillati...
Healthy Afib tips
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Heart1604
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I wouldn't not aware of any studies that recommend it.Anticoagulant is needed if prescribed to reduce the danger of stroke, if you want to risk disability or worse that's a big risk.
This subject is a regular on this forum and will no doubt generate a lot of discussion watch this space
I may be in a different category, but I was headed down a path I didn't like - my doc wanted to put me on stronger heart meds and start doing ablations - but I've only had 3 afib attacks in 3 years so I went to a natural heart doctor and she got me off of metropolol and I now I take magnesium, potassium, ginger, garlic, sunflower lecithin, taurine, l-arginine, d3, k2, fulvic acid, vitamin c, and just started r alpha lipoic acid. I am 90% better now. I can bend over and lay on my left side now with no problems(I used to almost go into afib with I did those things). Now the only thing I notice is if I stand in a very specific way with a slight lean(very slight) I have to straighten up because my heart starts reacting, but as soon as I straighten up it goes away - and that's it - that's all the issues I have now. I don't take any meds now and my heart rate is resting at 60 bpm. But I exercise and work out with weights. The funny thing is my heart works even better during my workout with weights. But like I said my case is probably in a different category. For me the key is finding things(supplements, food) that relax blood vessels and the body.
All good things but nothing to do with anticoagulation which for many is essential if they have AF and so called "natural" remedies are not quantifiable and risky at least.
Well since I don't have afib I don't need blood thinners.
Thank you so much Celtic 😊
What is 90% better? If you haven’t had any AF episodes since starting your new regime does that not mean 100% cured? How do you arrive at 90%? I am genuinely curious.
Hi Autumn - sorry I've taken so long to answer I've had a lot of things going on lately. I say 90% because I still have a few times where I nearly go into an attack, but as long as I straighten up it goes away fast. I can bend over now and pick up stuff, where before it was really risky for me to bend over because my heart would start to bounce around and if it keeps on bouncing it will turn into a full attack. Just yesterday I had 2 really bad near misses like I had gone backwards. So I thought about what had I changed recently. Well, I thought I was getting too much calcium so I stopped drinking milk 5 days ago - I drink 3 to 4 cups of milk a day. The 2 near misses yesterday were really bad, like I'm lucky I didn't go into afib. I don't know the connection, but I drank 2 cups of milk, and I felt so much better and I felt like I was back to normal. Perhaps I got too low on calcium and I know the heart does need calcium to function. Also, the last 4 weeks I've had more of a bumpy heart but also 4 weeks ago I stopped taking vitamin C (2,000 mg a day), and there is evidence vitamin C helps with afib and I've read some testimonies that vitamin C basically cured them of afib, so just this morning I've started vitamin C again. Also, today I've started berberine to reduce inflammation. I hope this helps to clarify. I will update in a couple of weeks to let people know if adding back Vitamin C and adding in berberine helped or not.
• in reply toCelticboy2
That's amazing Celticboy2, Magnesium drops in a 1 litre bottle of water that you sip all day is also excellent, so you stay hydrated and you consume magnesium at the same time, I also make my own turmeric capsules, its very easy, its just organic turmeric and you grind black pepper on top, mix it up and fill up capsules that you can buy from the pharmacy. Just wear gloves as turmeric really stains the fingers. CQ10 is something else I also take. But I think just in general eating well, positive thoughts, meditation, exercise, fresh air and generally being happy and content is the cure for ALL problems.
Are you in the U.K.? Just wondered how you found a natural heart doctor, I’d like to see one too. Thanks
Dr. Jack Wolfson
Viva is right - I did actually go to Dr. Wolfson in Scottsdale Arizona.
WELL. GOOD.
But on no meds I had an embollic stroke with AF, rapid and persistent.
Put on Metoprolol which I said no to. 4 days later in hospital the scanner scanning my carotid arteries found I had thyroid cancer. 4 months of arguing between the endocrinologist in my triage team and surgeon and anaesthetist I underwent the operation. Just caught the cancer in 2 of the 12 lymph nodes removed along with my thyroid.
My heart structurally is not normal so no cardioversion, ablation or anti-arrhymic meds.
2 more operations done under AF controlled.
CCB introduced was the no brainer.
My H/R Day at rest is 60s too.
I understand that supplements can make you toxic but foods will naturally eliminate. So there is a risk of levels. When do you have blood tests? 3mthly?
cheri JOY. 74. (NZ)
As long as I am not in afib I don't need meds or blood thinners because my heart is beating normal. Why would I want to be on meds or blood thinners if I'm not in afib in the first place. About once a year for blood tests for me because my standard markers are always excellent, but for things like vit d and mag levels and mold toxins etc I should do at least once a year.
I guarantee you meds are more harmful to your body than supplements.
Hi
Some of us Afers need meds to control our AF. I had a stroke in 2019 which produced AF Rapid and Persistent.
CONTROLLED finally with the least amount of meds I can assure you.
Obviously if you want to take a risk your prorogative.
And of course having had thyroidectomy to remove papillary cancer, Synthroid daily.
I took no meds at the time of my stroke except for B12 deficiency B12 Solgar 1000ug a nugget x 3 days week. Sublingual.
I do encourage you to get blood test levels to check. As some elements already contain some. Statins are stopped when taking the anti-viral medication when you have COVID. I don't take Statins and wouldn't entertain the anti-viral because I feel an anti-boost of a strain could be helpful in the future.
We all need to die of something - toxcity is one of them.
Yes, I believe unknown diagnosis of thyroid cancer to me the blood clot was caused by AF and consequently caused the stroke in the left frontal lobe. I couldn't make sense of my speech and nor could 111 place me at the correct address.
My Chad score is 2 for ischaemic stroke, 1 for female, 1 for over 65 = 4 but my Dr puts me at 7 plus???
I hope the risk is worth it!
cheri JOY
PS my 84 friend forgot her PRADAXA when she ran out and enjoying herself on holiday at her farm, usually the Retirement Village Home, she had a mild stroke. 4 days without. She was then put on 40mg Statins and a few months later prediabetis began to front. No bread, no honey. She was so sad. She died last mth as a fall and then COVID made her soooo tired. She did have MS and could only take the odd step.
I use Hawthorne Berry as well.
Not going to protect you from a stroke though however good you think you are. I know as I had a stroke when I thought I was doing all the right things, except taking the prescribed anticoagulant.
All the best.
Roy
Why would I be at risk for a stroke if I have a normal heart beat? If that is the case then the entire world should be on blood thinners. Oh, and, I don't think I'm good - I know I'm good.
Sorry I thought you said you'd had Afib attacks, which normal hearts don't have.
Anticoagulants only recommended for older people then, because you are more inclined to develop clots in other places that can also work their way to the brain or heart, as you age according to the studies I've read.
All the best.
Roy
Your regimen and results are almost a duplicate of mine. I can do both resistance and cardio exercise and am not left gasping for air like I was when I was taking bisoprolol. My only addition to the list is a glass of low sodium V8 juice, mixed with beet root powder, matcha green tea and organic apple cider vinegar to wash it all down with after breakfast.
Bisoprolol is not an anticoagulant.
I did not say that it was. That was merely a sidebar comment.
On this forum I find evidence based comments most helpful and personal views owned, in my view.😂
I looked into alternative routes when I was first diagnosed a year ago. I even bought a load of hawthorn berry pills. I respect people who want to travel that route, but to be entirely honest, aside from finding a lack of sound research, it just looks like too much hard work to me - trying to get all the right supplements into my diet and keeping up with all those expensive pills and worrying about precise proportion of potassium to magnesium yet alone remembering to take them all! Sometimes it’s easier just to take a pill.
I looked at hawthorn berry supplements and there is research but on rats and rabbits! Haw berries seem to be a rich source of polyphenols which can have health benefits, but so do all edible berries (and many plant foods). The problem with supplements and herbal remedies is that the effective dose for any specific medical purpose is unknown. Supplements are regulated as food — not medicine — and legally there is a lot of margin for error allowed regarding the amount of active ingredient in the product. So you don’t know how much you’re taking, it may be more than stated on the label, it may be less, and different batches and brands may vary too. In addition, supplements are not tested often for their content. Sometimes supplements are found to have no active ingredients at all. Or they could contain twice as much. Pharmaceuticals are tested regularly and must contain what is stated and in what amount. It’s incredible how many people believe that supplements are regulated and tested like pharmaceutical products. Not so.
I suspect the reason why haw berries are not being marketed as a “superfood” is probably because they don’t taste that good, not delicious like blueberries or strawberries, but you can use them to make jams and that kind of thing if you’re so inclined. My sister in law dabbles with all that country living and making preserves etc so she can try it and share the results, haha. I enjoy berries, so I’ll stick to what’s in the shops for now.
Apparently hawthorn berries do have “blood thinning” properties and it was a pharmacist who warned against taking them in addition to anticoagulant. I started grazing on haw berries after my hole in heart op as a teenager. And I’ve always chewed on the fresh Spring leaves - in Hertfordshire we called them “bread and cheese!”
Rainfern as kids we called those leaves bread and cheese too. Often ate a few back then.
I grew up in a concrete jungle. I don’t think I’d have ever seen a hawthorn tree as a kid! 🤣
Cities have been greening up a bit thank goodness and there’s more biodiversity in parts of London (Kew, the new reserves) than there is in an average Devon field!
I’m a total tree hugger these days. I love trees! I used to work in an urban nature reserve many years ago and occasionally go back to visit. 🌳
Rainfern, we used to call them bread and cheese too,here in Northamptonshire. I've not eaten them since I was 11!
Hi
I liken to my discovery of no alternative for thyroxine.
I had no printouts on after my thyroidectomy due to cancer. But I knew I had low risk of cancer returning so I declined RAI (Radio Active Iodine) which is automatically given in the post plan!
Not me. It was Feb 2020 and the beginning of COVID.
And declined the Endocrinologists move to make my TSH level in Hyper and less than .5. We have a point in NZ as does USA I think. Normal .5-4.2 TSH.
Alternative to thyroxin is thyroid pieces of pigs thyroid. Caution was given
1. no guarantee of the thyroid level.
2. Not passed by safe pharmac tests.
3. 1 pig is different from another
But Levo..... a synthetic med thyroxine has been proven for years and it is safe, with quantity and quality tested.
I have changed from the 'bulk levo..' as it was difficult to keep on a discussed and appropriate level for my personal profile. As 25mg was Synthroid I asked to change to 100mg as well in Synthroid and since then bingo I have an easier daily route to the same level 1.5-2.5 TSH. My T3 is 3.9-4.1. and mt T4 total flucuates at the top normal range.
I must emphasize I am LOW RISK and had 3 post yearly NO CANCER results to my yearly scan. I have one coming up this Thursday.
cheri JOY. 75. (NZ)
I love the pit-less blackberries. They melt in the mouth. Blueberries are s small this year here.
1 Natural is not the same as good or healthy
2 No, because no ‘natural thinners’ apart from aspirin have been medically tested and aspirin taken regularly is dangerous and ineffective for AF strokes.
hi I am on a anticoagulant for AF .5 years plus I had a HA and was given meds including Aspirin I still take these every day I did ask doctor if I should stop This is seven months ago and was told to keep taking the aspirin and the blood thinner as well so in your opinion aspirin is dangerous
It has to be used with caution but in your case it is necessary because of your HA. What I’m saying is it shouldn’t be taken without prescription, like any other medication which can ‘thin blood’.
For what it's worth:
US Preventive Services Task Force
Article Information
JAMA. 2022;327(16):1577-1584. doi:10.1001/jama.2022.4983
"The USPSTF concludes with moderate certainty that aspirin use for the primary prevention of CVD events in adults aged 40 to 59 years who have a 10% or greater 10-year CVD risk has a small net benefit. The USPSTF concludes with moderate certainty that initiating aspirin use for the primary prevention of CVD events in adults 60 years or older has no net benefit."
Hi
In hospital I was given an aspirin test. I failed the aspirin test. What does that mean?
My locum Dr says "that is not a test which should be given over time"
cheri JOY
I don’t think there is a healthier approach when it comes to anticoagulants and no other known alternative. I wouldn’t dare risk not taking the prescribed medication. To me, it is my friend and the most important medication needed for AF.
If you don't mind which anticoagulant are you taking pls? Thanks
I take Warfarin. I think the abbreviation HA. means heart attack. Best wishes.
Best wishes, Greetings
Hi
Warfarin is a very old anti-co.agulant.
Keep up to date with the newer list to choose from as we don't need blood monitoring.
I chose PRADAXA 110mg dose twice daily. I take it with a piece of fruit. Twice is safer. If I forget I can manage the lateness. There is a antidote.
Never taken too much. Taken 4 years 1/2.
cheri JOY. 75. (NZ)
Can you point me to any controlled studies which demonstrate the effectiveness of these products in preventing a stroke so that I can make an informed choice? I have used all these foodstuffs, all my life but still had a stroke. Wish I'd been on a blood thinner before the stroke! Wish my Afib had been detected before a stroke so that I could have been on a blood thinner.
Are you comfortable with the ethics of posing a question like that in such a way on this site?
It almost feels tongue in cheek!
Absolutely! We’ve been here before…
Personally I don’t care whether a random internet stranger refuses to take their medication. You can’t argue with stupid, so let them get on with it. Supplements aren’t medicines. Supplements are a multi-billion dollar global business but they rarely fund research to back up their supposed benefits, so I don’t swallow the “there’s no money in it” argument. They don’t need to do research because there’s plenty of suckers handing over their cash without it. Including myself, I have to say. I’m not resistant to the hype. I’ve been a sucker too . But where I draw the line is the erroneous belief that supplements are medicines, over and above correcting dietary shortfalls. Spices are wonderful, herbs can make all the difference to a meal when used judiciously, so by all means use them. But don’t regard them as medicines. Eat well, live well, and take your meds seriously.
• in reply toAutumn_Leaves
If supplements are a multi-billion dollar global business then what is big Pharma? Let me guess they do it out of the kindness of their hearts? Supplements are not medicines you are right, but supplements keep your immune system up so you DON'T have to take medicine and when you do then you can take natural medicine which is made by nature. How do you think the First Nation of America, the San in Southern Africa and the Aboriginals treated themselves? Now they take big Pharma medicine but that's because they're eating all the modern crap food we are forced to eat. Your conclusion is correct though, eat well, live well and you won't have to take your meds seriously.
"Let food be thy medicine, and let medicine be thy food,"
Rainfern• in reply to
I started eating wholefoods back in the 1960s when it was considered a load of old lentils. And have kept up a diet of plant based, occasional meat based diet since. We grow our own organic vegetables. I supplement with a couple of Brazil nuts every day because I live in UK where selenium levels in soil are so low. And since having AF a banana for added potassium. But I try to keep air miles down by paying more for locally sourced goods. I care about the environment as much as myself because we are our environment. But I still have AF. My diet isn’t perfect. Big Pharma isn’t perfect. We live in a capitalist system that isn’t perfect. But if it wasn’t for modern medicine I wouldn’t be alive today to write this or trudge up to my allotment to pick chard.
Did you have the Rose Elliott cookbook “Not Just A Load of Old Lentils”? That was a classic.
Of course!! 🤣🤣
Didn’t she do the Boston Baked Beans recipe? I don’t know if it was in that book or a later one. My sister in law made that one not long ago and it was so delicious, with the molasses etc, and baked in the oven.
Yes, I remember that one! My husband uses a different recipe now - a Jamie Oliver that has a crunchy top, just as delicious and rather less sugar!
I must look for that one. I have my own simplified version of the various Boston Baked Beans recipes online that I make in the pan as there’s always at least one ingredient that I don’t have at hand. I don’t like adding any form of sugar to a savoury recipe either. I also have a quick and easy Chakalaka that uses (oh horror of horrors, don’t tell the food police!!) tinned baked beans. It’s just the thing if you’re short of time. I found that one via a microbiome podcast. I put beans in everything, even in overnight oats, and if I have the energy, a porridge curry for breakfast is a good way to use up leftover beans.
• in reply toAutumn_Leaves
Loved that book and still have it!
Aren't you worried about the toxicity of the brazil nuts (selenosis, brazil nuts are a crop that can frequently be contaminated with aflatoxins. Aflatoxins, and in particular aflatoxin B1, are considered to be genotoxic and carcinogenic and there is evidence they can cause liver cancer in humans ) I was told not to take more than 2 a month because of the amount of selenium and the other contaminants they contain.
All the best.
Roy
Oh I didn’t know that. I tend to think nuts are protected from agrochemical toxins cos of their shells. We do buy organic when possible so maybe these are less toxic? I eat 2 a day. At a conference on Food and Mood run by the Nutrition Foundation UK we were told a lack of selenium is implicated in depression and a couple of brazil nuts daily could make the UK a cheerier place more generally!
I think 2 a day is perfectly safe.
JOY2THEWORLD49• in reply to
Hi
But this person has very little AF.
That is the factor here.
Alot of us have rapid, persistent AF which needs to be controlled No. 1 and No.2 take preventitive meds like anti-co.agulant.
On 30 October I had my Right shoulder done!
Leave off my PRADAXA 3 clear days prior. Then surgical team argued when to restart the PRADAXA. Surgeon said 24 hours post, Anaesthetist said 48 hours post.
I used my intuition and started PRADAXA 2 clear days after. It was 3 clear days after last year's operation - Johnson & Johnson TVT Kit removal and 2020 Thyroidectomy and 12 lymph node ectomies 3 clear days.
It seems it is all a risky decision.
But I the patient had the risk. I'm meant to be still here.
cheri JOY. 74. (NZ)
sponable98• in reply to
Both multi-billion global business, TRUE. But pharma is based on rigorous scientific protocols that are regulated. While not perfect, a far cry from the supplement industry which has almost no regulations in most countries! Not discounting supplements potential value but using supplements in place of an EP prescribed medicine, to prevent an injury such as stroke, is not wise. (Unless following directions from your cardiologist or EP.)
JOY2THEWORLD49• in reply to
Hi
Um if aboriginies were kept safe by themselves well their spiritual remedies could work but a lot move to cities and work to earn $s. Then they smoke and drink. And importantly mix with others.
There lies the cross-over of food and drink changes, disease, and body problems including mental diagnosis.
cheri JOY
I also see you have joined today and dropped in this question having said nothing about yourself. Trying to be controversial?
People should take care of their health, regardless of diagnosis or prescription medication. The purpose of dietary supplements is to correct dietary deficiencies. Supplements are not medicines. Turmeric and cinnamon are culinary ingredients. Use them for their intended purpose, which is in your cooking in the appropriate amounts ie to make your food taste good. Eat oily fish for the health benefits, eat nuts and seeds to ensure adequate intake of vitamin E. Use garlic in your cooking because it tastes delicious. Supplements don’t give you the synergetic benefits of eating whole foods. Supplements are not medicines and should never be seen as a substitute for a prescription medication. Don’t waste your money on supplements. Spend that money on ensuring you eat well, with lots of plants and fibre to feed your gut microbes, with lots of variety, eat the rainbow etc. If you are prescribed an anticoagulant, it’s because of your Chad Vasc Score. Discuss your personal risk factors with your healthcare professionals and make your decision to take anticoagulants based on that. Supplements aren’t medicines. Don’t kid yourself.
I think I’d add to this - make cooking delicious meals a creative aim in life!
Absolutely! If it taste delicious and it’s good for you, it’s win-win.
I take the view that food is our medicine and used as Autumn Leaves suggest - great and is my long held belief - but supplements are not foods and concentrated active ingredients such as curcumin in Tumeric supplements can be dangerous - they are Ultra Processed Foods which are no more ‘natural’ than anticoagulants.
I take all you have mentioned as foods - having had a TIA when not on anticoagulants and with a CHADSVASC score of 4 - no way would I trust my survival or health and well-being to supplements.
Your body, your choice.
That’s a very interesting way of regarding supplements, CDreamer. They are indeed ultra processed, produced in a factory, often from synthetic ingredients and not representative of the food source that may contain that nutrient. If you take vitamin E, and compare it to a dietary source like nuts, you’re also getting healthy fats, fibre, a little bit of protein and some minerals. The health benefits of eating nuts (if you are not allergic of course) include reduced LDL cholesterol and lower waist circumference, whereas the benefits of taking a vitamin E supplement are not particularly impressive at all. If you’re not getting these nutrients from food then the answer is to improve your diet, preferably by including more whole foods, not buying more and more ultra processed pellets! And isn’t it ironic that our national chain of “health food shops” is just wall to wall supplements?!
One must still keep in mind that there are certain things that it is just not possible to get enough of in a healthy diet and a vegan diet - thought by many to be super healthy- will not provide any at all. One is vitamin D. We evolved to make vit D in our skin living naked under an African sun. There is vitamin D in oily fish egg yokes and liver so none for vegans and not enough for vegetarians. The further north you live the smaller the window for making vit D in the skin and how many are able to expose their entire body for the time necessary to make sufficient that a good stock can be made to see them through the winter? Vegan diets need B12 supplementation and usually iron too. Taking supplements can never substitute for a healthy diet but a judicious top up of certain vitamins and minerals might well be necessary and will not harm. But this really does not have anything to do with anticoagulation. For that we need to take our anticoagulant!
Yes, all that is true. All adults in the UK are advised to take vitamin D from October to March due to lack of daylight. Most people on vegan diets know to supplement with B12. The purpose of supplements is to address dietary deficiencies. That was exactly my point.
Dietary deficiencies are hard to quantify on an individual basis . What is sufficient - the RDA ? I do not think that my diet was deficient in magnesium - certainly not as far as the RDA is concerned- but I have benefitted from supplementing it . Not all supplements are vits and minerals that can be found in our diet. I also take NAC and Quercetin. The latter has stopped my winter hive problem and I would rather take it than an antihistamine. I can't be bothered making my own from onion skins and I am not keen on apples. Before pharmaceuticals were developed herbs were medicine and are still used widely in Ayurveda and TCM medicine. They are used in concentrations greater than would be used for culinary purposes.
I have a lot of blood tests so I’m regularly tested for vitamin D, B12, folate and the usual. I go by my results. The only one I need to watch is vitamin D. The others are always high normal on diet alone. My folate levels typically go above the range just on diet. I’m not worried about quercetin etc. I have plenty of apples, onions. I aim for variety. I don’t overthink it. Other people can make their decisions their way.
You are not typical. Most people will not get extensive testing of nutrients on the NHS. Taking a specific supplement to treat a condition for which the prescribed pharmaceutical has created unacceptable side effects is not "overthinking it ".
Hi
The Safe Medical Team has researched levels but I have to also question the level too.
B12 showing 170 is a pass of normal. But we oldies, well I am, are expected to have a level between 700-800.
The above showed me at 150 Level aged 65.
I am left with Essential Tremor of my left hand. Also one leg has a tremor. But importantly both have had surgery.
But that diagnosis was given from a specialist. No, I did not have another diagnosis.
We can all check. Draw a big shell curves going out and out. With an upright pencil/pen WITHOUT TOUCHING TABLE, draw the curves within the shell.
I get vitamin D from hazel nuts and cashews. I’m like a squirrel - nuts are my constant go-to snack. So it’s not true to say vegans don’t have a source of vitamin D. And as a “mostly vegetarian” I also eat a lot of eggs. Having said this I do listen to what my body needs and with these dismal dark afternoons I’ll be looking out the old D supplement!
There is no vitamin D in nuts or seeds. The only vegetable source of vit D is mushrooms that have not been grown in the dark. They make D2 which is not as easy for our bodies to assimilate and the amount is so low it could not be relied on . Any vit D present in almond milk is added. You would do well to get your level checked.
Thank you Auriculaire. I don’t know where I got that from - shows how up to date my research is! Any idea where I’d go to get my vitamin levels checked?
I do eat a lot of eggs and make a nice smoke mackerel pate and get outdoors every day though less often at the moment. Like I say, its time to look out the D supplement.
I get a vitamin D supplement from Viridian. Simply because I have liked their other products. I just stick to the recommended 400IU.
It is suitable for vegans (not that I am vegan) - and comes from lichen!
It is the one supplement recommended in the UK, as it’s difficult to get enough in winter.
400iu is is not nearly enough to get sufficient levels in people who have not actively sunbathed all summer- not much chance in Auld Reekie - I lived there for 14 years ! The window for making vit D from the sun is worse the further north you live. Active sunbathing means taking your clothes off - not getting a bit on your face and arms.
I’m fine following the NHS recommendations. Though higher supplements are easily available for those who wish to take them.
I did for a while, but I lost trust in taking such a large dose.
They are garbage. They also state that a sufficient level is 20ng/ml which is way below European and US recommendations. Practically criminal for country that due to it's latitude has such a short window for making vit D in the skin.
I, along with most other countries, agree with Auriculaire that the recommended NICE Vitamin D levels are "garbage" and out-of-date. My deficiency was 22 nmol/L at the time of my AF diagnosis, and only just recognised as such. France recommends 50-100 ng/ml, which in UK units is 125-250 nmol/L. And recent research I've seen provides confirmation of the French recommendations, not NICE.
We all need to badger our GPs to get regular serum Vitamin D blood tests by insisting that research shows that Vitamin D is essential in preventing all kinds of arrhythmias, and in particular, your own AF.
I think 50ng/ml is the same as 75nmol/l, if I’m remembering correctly.
No,
you've got that wrong.
50 ng/ml = 125 nmol/L
1 ng/ml = 2.5 nmol/L
Yes, you’re correct about the units.
It’s all a moot point as far as I’m concerned. My levels never go up beyond a certain level regardless of supplement dose or means of administration. For me, bio-hacking my way a number on a blood test is pointless. There are UK Biobank Mendelian randomisation studies that have identified a genetic variation that seems to limit how high vitamin D levels can go in a proportion of the population. The way I see it is that my body knows what level it wants to be at. There’s not anything I can do about it so I stick with 1000IU.
It depends on what your levels are. You might be fine on 400IU if you build up enough from sunlight exposure in the summer months, though that’s not exactly reliable if you’re in the UK!
My own vitamin D levels never go above a certain level no matter what the supplement dosage. I’ve tried high dosage sprays as an experiment and my results are still the same, within 0.2nmol! According to a UK Biobank study, some people have a genetically determined limit, and it would seem that I am one of them. So megadosing on vitamin D has no advantage for me. I stick with 1000IU as that’s what my gynaecologist recommended. I’d always recommend getting a proper blood test via your GP to check your levels if that’s possible.
I shall ask. I know my calcium levels and bone density are fine - plus I will get some from my diet. Not a sun worshipper I must admit. I took 2000 units for a while, but got worried after diagnosis of AFib and starting to take medications too.
I participated in the BioBank, though of course would only know anything from it if they detected anything sinister. Someone there did think I was in low rate AFib from the pulse oximeter, and recommended I go to my GP. That was 2018 - but I just got an ECG and told it was fine, slow and steady heart rate. Guess it was at that point in time!
UK Biobank have come up with all sorts of interesting findings, and the studies on genetically-influenced vitamin D levels were very interesting. The human body will switch off vitamin D from sunlight absorption once it reaches a certain level. I don’t think it makes sense to megadose on supplements to try and get beyond what the body’s preferred operating level. Correcting a deficiency is one thing but beyond that there’s probably no benefit. And I can’t influence my own levels anyway. I’m sure there’s a reason why the body has these mechanisms.
It’s great that your bone density is good. You’ve obviously done the right things there so chances are your vitamin D has also been fine. There’s no point in taking more than you need. 👍
You can buy vit D tests on Amazon but I don't know how reliable they are. The one my stepson used seemed iffy not giving any numbers just a line w.ith sufficient/ insufficient either side of it. This is not very helpful if the UK level for sufficience is used as it is lower than US and European levels .You could ask your GP for one but might be refused. I would try and then insist on having the numbers and not be fobbed off with it's OK.
I got my GP to instigate a yearly serum Vitamin D test after supplementation raised my level after a deficiency was diagnosed at the time of my AF diagnosis. I insisted to my GP that ongoing monitoring my Vitamin D level was essential to my need to ensure my level never again fell to the previous deficiency level, and in fact is maintained at the higher 125 nmol/L I see as appropriate. And with a multitude of Vitamin D supplements available to me online, it is vital for me and all of us to know how well or badly a particular supplement has worked in my or your unique circumstances. Otherwise we haven't got a clue, and that's not good.
I shall email my GP who is now very interested in the route I’ve taken with my AF and is someone who will work with me. If the surgery doesn’t offer tests I can find a different route. You’ve obviously explored the impact of low vitamin D in depth. Thanks for the tips.
That is not what the internet says. It says there is vitamin D in Hazelnuts and Cashews.
All the best.
Roy
Not all sites on the Internet are reliable. I have looked at some of the sites that say this and they are actually internally inconsistent. I prefer to get my info from one of the world's leading vit D researchers Michael F Holick who says in his book The Vitamin D Solution " Mushrooms are the only source of natural vitamin D in the produce section ". This is an excellent book and I would recommend that anybody who wishes to know more about vit D read it.
Hi
But you can put your mushrooms on the window sill to absorb the sunshine. I also do it to my tomatoes.
NZ north far... has so good supply of sunshine.
Just 10-20 min early am on your arms is enough.
cheri JOY (NZ)
I think a vitamin D supplement is a good idea, Rainfern, especially at this time of year. You may be able to get a vitamin D blood test via your GP. Deficiency is very common and as an older lady it’s important to protect your bones.
Hi Heart1604, im 63 with no co morbidities and ep says no anti coag until im 65, so i take cayenne pepper, nattokinase, magnesium and various vits and minerals on alternate days per week, all this hoping itll stand me in good stead, no definitive studies, so dont know if helping or not , albeit my af progresses.
I am curious, why not until you are 65? Is the EP anticipating a decline in your health and so require anticoagulant at that age, or is it a magic number thrown up by statistics? Good that you are being proactive pre 65 though. Will you stop these supplements when/if you start anticoags at 65? It is good to see all the different opinions and strategies everyone has, they are opposite ends of the poles and everywhere in between! 😊
When you get to 65 you score an extra point on the chads2vasc scale, which will indicate for anticoagulants.
Ah, so statistics then. I had a TIA about 8/9 years ago, af diagnosed a year or so after. After discussion with gp and cardiologist, even after I have an ablation next year, I will remain on the anti coagulants. My surgery rang me when the CHADS scoring process was reevaluated and it changed peoples score. The NP said I no longer needed to take anti coagulants as my score had gone down and didn’t indicate them. I explained my health history of a TIA plus having regular af episodes and asked if she really thought it advisable I stopped them…….. she wasn’t aware of my health conditions, just the result of the algorithm that calculated the scores….. she didn’t think it was good for me to stop them. I like to think I am ‘on the ball’ and look into my health conditions/ meds etc - I don’t take what the doctors say with blind faith (I even argue at times 🤣 ) what about those who aren’t so informed? Sorry, I have written you a saga 🤪 x
Hi
You get a score of 2 for start for stroke or TIA.
My Mum had 1 x TIA in respite and I noticed a difference in her as I picked her up. The next am showed that she was leaning to right. I rung her St Johns alarm. They carted her off to hospital but I picked her up later that day.
No more TIAs anf at 90 she was put into care from my home. She died of an undiagnosed urine infection. It developed into kidney infection before she was put in hospital. I was 4-5 hours away and had a cold that month so stayed home.
Cheers JOY
65 you score 1 on chads vasc, i am not sure yet if i would continue with these supplements ,more research needed, its hard to keep on top of it all, as there are purported from these supplements other health benefits .
Yes, agree re other health benefits. I struggle with the ‘additives’ and what the coatings/capsules are made of. The only supplement I take at the moment is magnesium taurate from ethical nutrition - if I can get the capsule apart without spraying the contents everywhere, I do that. I know it is making a difference for me 😊
i tried magnesium taurate for about 3 months but wasnt seeing any relief , i am now on mag/citrate, maybe a mix of magnesiums could be a way to go.
Fascinating isn’t it? I started the mag taurate and have gone from weekly episodes to about only 3 in the last couple of months. I have previously tried a mix of magnesium, two different brands (supposedly good) but I just felt ill on it.
Ha ha! I too go through the ‘spraying’ magnesium capsule palaver. Makes my kitchen counter look like a drugs den.
I decided to just ‘deal’ with the capsules as it also tasted foul however I mixed it 🤣. And to make my day, I have flipped into af about an hour ago, no warning this time 😪 So first time of taking my new pip meds (150mg Flecainide & 50mg metoprolol) fingers crossed x
Aww no, sorry to hear that. Definitely fingers crossed for the new meds.
I asked a question a couple weeks back about anyone notice when they are af free for a period and you think its going well then BOOM off it goes
Hi Tilly, do you have any links to info on magnesium taurate? I keep hearing it mentioned but don’t know what it’s for or if it could be useful in my situation: persistent AF one year, now NSR following ablation and top-up CV. (And after all I said about taking supplements above lol😂)
I watch Dr Gubta of York cardiology on youtube, and follow him on face book. If you put Magnesium in the search bar at the top of the page here, it should come up with plenty of posts about it xx
A TIA adds a point so does being a woman. So Tilly's score would be 3 though there is controversy over whether the point for being female counts. Some think it should not count if there are no comorbities but a TIA is definitely a comorbity!
I was under a phenomenal amount of sudden stress when it happened. My bp must have been off the scale too. Also, I get another point because I am 66 🤣 x
Still 3 points - same as me!
When you have had a stroke as a direct result of A/F and you are told that you have to take an anticoagulant for the rest of your life it comes as a shock, did I take it, starting 20 odd years ago, indeed I did and will take it for as long as I have left because I really do not fancy having another stroke!
I have two points. Firstly the AC dilemma whether to take or not; for me no substitute for a frank two way discussion with your trusted cardiologist.
Second point. My approach is to let daily diet and supplements lead but accept for most there comes a time when the scales tip (following an annual cardiologist consultation) and ACs become the answer. With all matters AF, it is probably most beneficial not to get too entrenched in any one theory.
Afib increases the chances of having a stroke. Blood thinners (anticoagulants) reduce the risk. The natural things you list are unlikely to reduce the risk of a stroke.
There is nothing to prevent any sensible person taking a 'healthy approach' to AF and an anticoagulant if advised to do so.
When diagnosed with AF 6 years ago I stopped drinking my modest ration of wine, increased my already health mostly vegetarian organic diet which includes everything possible home made including wholemeal bread and kombucha, kefir daily , oily fish twice a week, olive oil and nuts daily, magnesium taurate daily, increased excercise and sleep , avoid stressful situations, learn slow counting belly breathing . This went along with taking an anticoagulant and a betablocker.
My healthy regime may have slowed the progression of my P-AF but it did progress and if like me you are highly symptomatic I would suggest having an ablation at the first opportunity before the episodes become too frequent. I didn't and wish I had.
my two cents on this - please differentiate between
a) experimenting with natural supplements to treat/prevent A-fib - which I think is ok. I have tried but it didn’t work FOR ME. I don’t think there is much to lose.
b) playing Russian roulette by not consistently taking an anti-coagulant or blood thinner or experimenting with “natural alternatives”.
Sighs! We live longer and healthier lives thanks to health scientists’ authenticated research findings. Whilst I acknowledge some supplements can enhance wellbeing (Vits D and B in my case for example ) I think relying on the claims of ‘commercially invested ‘ medical opinion when it comes to protecting the heart is misguided at least and dangerous at worst if your recommendations were followed.
Suspicious
None of us here would want to minimise all of the healthy things and healthy foods and supplements you can take to improve the situation with AF. I swear that magnesium supplements really made a huge difference to me. But having suffered a stroke at a time when I was living a healthy life style, eating natural foods and taking lots of daily exercise (I thought I had 'beaten' AF) I now appreciate just how crucial anti coagulants are. (I had been taking aspirin regularly before which was next to useless) You may of course escape any dire consequences for many years without; but the worst could happen tomorrow or in a few months. None of us know.
I therefore agree with most of the others replying to you here. Anticoagulants for most people are nothing to fear and the alternatives are so much worse. I was very lucky but my quality of life has been changed permanently for the worse by the stroke; many people are not as lucky as me.
Heart - you have set an interesting dialogue in motion. Isn’t it time that you gave us a bio and let us know something about yourself?
Thing is , it isn't unhealthy to take prescription medications which manage your condition and reduce your risks of serious events like heart attacks or strokes.That's actually sensible , proactive, preventative Self Care.
Both prescribed medications and supplements or herbal alternatives are all medicinal drugs . All are chemicals that need to be processed by the body. All have benefits and risks. All have side effects or can cause intolerance. All can either be helpful or harmful depending on the individual whom happens to take them.
I'm more inclined to believe the Prescribed medication or Complementary and Alternative treatment shouldn't be an "either /or" choice .
I've never understood why it's seems you need to be "for" or "against" one or the other which seems to create a constant and ferocious debate on all the health forums.
If you sit on one side of the fence or the other , you don't get the benefit of the whole view , so on this topic, the topic of improving my life, I would sit on the fence every day of the week!
I believe in using both types of medication for prevention and management , hand in hand , in a complementary and holistic way, to improve my long term self care . I have been dealing with various long term chronic health issues for decades so maybe that gives me an advantage I never wished to have which means I learned this lesson over many years.
Yes , you need to be careful and only choose supplemental and herbal options to trial that do not interact with the preventative medications you take .
But it's possible to use all the tools in your arsenal, prescribed and otherwise, to improve your chances of delaying the progress of your condition and reducing the risks of future health problems.
Not all supplements work for everyone , just as not all prescribed drugs are tolerated by everyone, there are no miracles on either side of the debate . And because we are all individuals with unique health profiles and needs , what can sometimes be a cure for one person can be a curse for another. It is all trial and error and problems or solutions happens equally when you take medications or supplements from either side of the health market.
The reason an anticoagulant or blood thinner is prescribed is to give you the most reliable , well researched option to reduce your risk of blood clots and strokes.
Yes, there are many supplements out there that can thin the blood or help cardiac health , if they could be guaranteed to do that for every patient as effectively as the prescribed anticoagulants GPs would be prescribing them , and Big Pharma would have created their own combined versions of them to be the prescribed supplements of choice.
The same would be true for all different types of medication for all the different medical conditions .
The truth is , as yet, there is no consistent supplement or organic based treatment, either in combination or exact accurate dosage, which has been proved to universally work as well as the current prescribed options.
And the Health Care system don't want to take risks with your life by testing things out on you.
If you are a generally healthy person whom has not yet been diagnosed with a condition like AF that increases your risks then it's worth improving your diet and lifestyle and trying certain researched supplements to hopefully delay or avoid the chance of you developing conditions.
But if you've already been diagnosed with a long term condition that increases your risks of developing other problems , a chronic condition that isn't "cured" but is managed it's time to learn a " New Normal" and accept that you may need to take prescription medications alongside healthy lifestyle options. Probably the hardest pill to swallow when you develop a chronic health condition is that you often need to put aside old principles to make positive health choices.
And you have to make the most important Self Care choices to improve your diet and lifestyle choices altogether. You need to accept that you may need to exercise more or change the type of exercises you do.
You need to accept that you need to listen to your body and pace your lifestyle better to reduce stress caused by too much , good or bad, physical or mental activity triggering your AF or making it worse.
You need to consider if you have any specific triggers to you and avoid them.
It's not just about taking a pill , be it prescribed or herbal , organic or synthetic, and then carrying on with the "Old Normal" routine.
You get a badge of honour when your have a long term health condition for doing whatever you can; to stay as healthy and positive as you can; while having the best quality of life you can ,within certain limits that you can't escape (no matter how much you'd love to).
You don't get a badge of honour for not taking prescribed medications or only taking natural alternatives, or vice versa, if it would be better for your health if you took what would work best for you.
Do your research with recognised and responsible health sites and charities, make your choices . If you take the prescribed medications always double check with a good online drug checker whether you can take the natural or herbal medication you have been recommended by someone ; no matter how experienced or qualified they may be , with the medicines you need to take , as often they cannot . That's how you finally find Safe Self Care that suits You.
Take care , Bee
I agree with all of this. It does nobody any good to become entrenched and polarised about taking prescription medication or so-called “natural” alternatives. The definitions of what these “alternatives” actually are is immensely variable. For example, I have a friend who takes a spoonful of kefir every day as “prescribed” by her alternative health practitioner. I drink kefir every day just as a drink and I have a lot more than one spoonful! To her it’s some kind of natural remedy “treatment”. To me it’s just a drink and doesn’t treat anything. It’s food. It’s not treating anything as far as I’m concerned. It’s not an “alternative” to anything. So perception and belief may well be playing a part too.
With anticoagulants, it’s all about the risk factors and that’s why it’s important to consider your ChadsVasc score. It’s going to be different for everyone. Just because someone has been prescribed an anticoagulant doesn’t make them a supporter of a football team called “Big Pharma” who plays against “Big Supplement” (or is it “Big Wellness” these days?) Seeing the situation as taking sides is just plain stupid. It won’t change your risk and you can’t make it disappear by wishful thinking. Sadly, I don’t think turmeric or cayenne pepper or garlic will change that risk in any meaningful way. Nothing wrong with those ingredients, I use them in cooking all the time and and they make food taste delicious. But just as with the kefir, it’s just food.
I do believe we can support our health in many ways and we should, regardless of what we’re diagnosed with or what we’re prescribed or not prescribed. I prefer the food first approach rather than supplements, but where there is a proven deficiency, supplements are necessary to correct it. That goes without saying. I think we are getting into murky territory when we start confusing supplements with medicines though.
Great post Bee. Very balanced and brings all the strands together into a genuinely holistic and realistic view. Thank you
I have started to be more health aware with food and exercise. I can say buying healthy is more expensive!
There's a risk-benefit assessment undertaken to determine whether someone with AF should be prescribed anti-coagulants. That's why I'm not on an anti-coagulant - for me, the risks associated with taking it are greater than the risk of my AF causing a stroke. Using natural alternatives to try thin your blood might reduce your risk of stroke - but may not be as effective as medications - or might be more effective than required and cause complications. Something for you to discuss with your doctor I would think.
I bet you wish you'd never asked!! Lots of replies..people bringing politucs into a heart forum etc. Deary me. I find this thread both useful and very draining at the same time. I'm 49 next year and have PAF. I know my triggers..take no meds as the experts at the LGI have told me not to (aside from PIP) and its what I do/don't do that normally ticks me along.
Low/no alcohol..good sleep..keep stress levels down..hydration..good exercise...avoid choc...no heavy meals (thats a biggy)...healthy eating (loads of oats, berries, walnuts, bananas)...don't really eat after 8pm.
I also take a magnesium supplement daily too. Some common sense here, but for me its trying to delay it progressing and the need for procedures.
Look after yourself.
I don’t.! It’s something Iv never even researched to be honest. I personally will stick with an anticoagulant prescribed by the doctors. I’m not saying there isn’t anything else natural that may do the same job.? But when or if I need anticoagulants again I think it’s best to take the rite ones from the doctors.!
"Blood thinning "medicines come in 2 categories - anticoagulants and anti aggregants. Anticoagulants act on the clotting cascade to slow the time it takes for the blood to clot . Anti aggregants stop blood clots forming when platelets clump together. Aspirin is an anti aggregant pharmaceutical. Just as aspirin is no good for preventing the clots formed during an afib episode anti aggregant supplements are not useful either . Most of the natural substances touted as blood thinners are anti aggregants. The only supplement I am aware of that might have any anticoagulant properties is nattokinase but this does not appear to be quantified. It has mainly been researched as a clot buster and there is good evidence for this in Japanese research. But there has not been any research that I can find in English on how useful it might be in afib patients and most importantly at what dose. Personally I had a TIA when taking a low dose of nattokinase and this was 6 months after my previous afib attack . I take my Apixaban. I also take some supplements that incidentally have anti aggregant properties for reasons other than blood thinning.
Thanks esp. to Bee and Auriculaire for their careful/nuanced replies, and being open to options for people who choose not to "take the pill." I just want to add 2 points. 1) Millions of people in the world suffer from bleeding disorders & other conditions (myself included) that make it impossible to take anticoagulants. So something else has to be worked out for us. 2) It is not common public knowledge, but many of us use reputable MD's and ND's who have, for 20, 30, 40 years, been designing, testing, and using supplements, foods, vitamins, etc. to create options for people such as myself.
These drs. , patient by patient, learn what works effectively, using testing of specific combinations and specific dosages. I am very grateful for the wisdom and help of my doctors. But you have to search out these doctors, because they know what a firestorm would result if they suggested alternatives vs. Bristol Myers Squibb (who made $12 billion last quarter of 2022, of which they say Eliquis was a good chunk).
I am in favour of every business making a profit, but let's face it-- patients like myself using non-drug regimens won't make them any money. So it doesn't get talked about publicly. But it is not "Russian roulette" to work with your physician to develop a different option to meet your needs. Every treatment has its risks; depending on our conditions, we all evaluate risk and reward differently. We should simply be united in learning how to greet and entertain our common guest, AF. Have a calm NSR day, everyone! Diane
A friend of mine sells "health products" on a multi-level-marketing basis (some might say "pyramid sales"). Before I was diagnosed with a dodgy heart valve, she was very keen to put me on an expensive course of Omega 3 fish oils. I declined, but within a month of my having a TAVI she put a lot of pressure on me, making me very uncomfortable. I again refused, which was just as well, as many websites advise against taking more than two or three grams of fish-oil supplements a day with blood thinners.
(I already consume several portions of salmon or mackerel a week.)
The research that supports the benefits of eating oily fish have not been replicated with fish oil supplements. There is evidence to suggest that fish oil supplements actually increase the risk of new onset AF. You’re better off eating the fish and not bothering with the supplements.
I do, as I can't take blood thinners/anti coags without bleeding. I take everything you mentioned except fish oil, but I add lots of ginger.
Just a point though...If you are prescribed blood thinners you should take them...Depends on medical criteria and CHAD score
I tried although I only had an irregular heartbeat rather than a racing one. I forgot to breathe I think when I rushed up a hill to be on time for an appointment. I had a small stroke which caused me to lose left peripheeral vision. This was better after 2 days. I'm pleased that I have realised how important it is to keep breathing as I now go as fast as my slow 85 year old legs will take me and seem to be OK because I breathe correctly.
Poor you! Take care MargaretWendy.
Each to their own - at least it's good that you are 'owning you own health'.
But I smile to hear celtic referring to the advice of a 'natural heart doctor' and then listing all the supplements taken - none of which are exactly natural in a supplement form.
With all the talk recently of the dangers of 'ultraprocessed foods', I looked at my own diet - some things like shop mayo and shop muesli don't look too great but then I realised that by far the most ultraprocessed (and 'un-natural') thing I ingested was my daily multi vitamin and mineral from the 'health food shop'.
I checked with a chemist who works for one of the big suppliers and she confirmed that there had to be hundreds of processing steps to make that one pill.
I believe all the decisions we make about managing our issues boil down to our concept of health. For some health is avoiding "reliance" on prescription medicines and the prognostications of health care professionals. In other cases "doctor knows best" and we should of course obey their instructions slavishly to avoid disaster, after all they have trained for years to learn what is best for us and know far more the workings of our bodies and the means necessary to support a more healthy life.
I have started reading Ellen Langer's latest book The Mindful Body - thinking our way to chronic health. It's a fascinating read. The mind body connection is much more than that , they are one and the same entity I feel. She talks about the arbitrary cut offs which decide if we are classed as pre diabetic or not for example - 0.1 change in a blood test which is not in itself significant decides if we are or are not.. We do the same with CHADs vasc 2 scores and age. They are guides only, we don't suddenly get an extra risk over night on reaching a certain age.
Thoughts and beliefs about medication can affect what the response is to it of course as the mind is so powerful. Our expectations of the outcome of a disease trajectory also have tremendous influence. I now accept what is "normal for me" and that is my concept of health
Eliquis at the prescribed dose made me itch badly. I found I could take 2.5 mg a day without itching, but I'm in the US (help!) and Eliquis is very expensive here, so I started using it as a PIP, which I realize is not recommended. I was also overweight and had mild kidney failure, lupus, and the PAF about once a week. Long story short, its 2 years later, I went on a kidney dies (lots of vegies and berries and nuts, lost the weight, exercise every day, have not had PAF in months, and do not even have to worry about triggers nowadays. I still take a turmeric capsule every day, but I don't know that its helping. Going off all the supplements I had tried is a real money-saver. (Tumeric is also recommended for lupus). I was able to cut way back on prednisone (for lupus, but it aggravated the afib) and all the heart meds. I feel really well, though I recognize that any major illness, or just aging, could burst the bubble. For now its working very well.
In my view an anti-coagulant is essential for AF sufferers. Natural elements may play a part with some people as an addition to their daily diet but never as a replacement for an anti-coagulant.
TracyAdminPartner
Thank you for your post, it is important to check with your doctor if you have any questions regarding additional vitamins or over the counter herbal supplements, they will be able to provide the necessary explanation and reassurance about medication used in the treatment of atrial fibrillation.
Hi, I try to eat raw garlic, drink cranberry, blueberry, strawberry and cherry smoothie, and ginger tea.
I would say yes
The side effects I get from 6 different meds. are creating more problems than they are solving. I am trying to “ programme” when I take the meds depending on what I plan to do during that day. I take them but listen to my own body at the same time.
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