I developed atrial flutter in December 2024, now taking Diltiazem 120mg x 2 and Apixaban 5mg x2. Had a cardiovestion but only last for 36 hours.
After 5weeks wait I managed to see the GP, discussed with him my situation and long term treatments. The GP was not been on ablation procedure ,said that this procedure is not very successful and has some long term side effects , like thermal burning and end up with pace maker.
Suggested to control my AF with medications.
I very much appreciate it if you could share your experience and thoughts about this and any experience with the procedures.
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papillone
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I always found Flutter far more disabling than AF so my sympathies. Ablation for flutter is much easier and normally quicker than for AF and as far as I am aware at least as successful as for AF. My AFl was ablated during AF ablation and although I still have occasional AF - Flutter never returned.
I wouldn’t take the advice of a GP on this subject, especially one without specialist cardiac experience and one who seems rather biased against ablation anyway. I say that because I did have a GP who was excellent but also a cardiac registrar who was very pro ablation and rather against meds for the rest of my life, with which I totally agreed.
Of course only a full assessment from an EP will be able to assess whether or not you are a good candidate for an ablation and the fact that you DID convert, even though it didn’t last, demonstrates you may well be a suitable candidate.
I have an appointment with Cardiologist next month and will discussed with him I think the GP may be concerned about overall health of the heart and especially the heart volve
currently my HR are sleeping 49-55 , resting 60-75 , walking normal 95-110. BP 128/82.
Is the new Pulse Field Ablation available anywhere near you? It is supposed to be safer and more effective. I'm scheduled for March, I've been losing weight and made other positive health choices. My a-fib severity and episodes have been reduced a lot. But I understand the anxiety about any heart procedure.
I was finally diagnosed with SVT - which then morphed into AF during EP investigations where they had to cardiovert my heart 5 times ….I felt brilliant afterwards as blood was coursing happily around my body for months . My GP at the time told me not to rush into ablation but wait & see how things went, though my EP was keen to proceed ….. I dragged my heels for 18 months or so. , then Sunmer of 2020 things got a lot worse & I ended up having an ablation Aug 2020
& thanks heavens I’ve had great results & now only take Rivaroxyban & some spells where I need minimal Flecaineide for few months , as I’ve had 3 random bouts of AF in middle of the night when I’d overdone stuff . I’m ever grateful for my EP and my ablation , but I was lucky 🍀 that I had one of the best from Royal Brompton doing mine - he’s looked after me for over 25 yrs now .
I’ve got friends who haven’t been as lucky - maybe check what’s on offer & if it’s a centre of excellence that’s doing the ablation ?!
Maybe change your GP? This kind of advice is really not helpful and as CD mentions, ablation for flutter is much easier , quicker and normally more successful.
wilsond , can you come and fight my case please. 34 years with same practice now can only see 2 part time doctors ……….. rarely. Phoned twice recently, eventual call back and told it is winter time , they are busy , go to A and E. No wonder A and E is drowning. Have tried 3 times to see the practice manager, it has not happened. When one has oodles of co morbidities ( hate that word) one needs a gp who knows you and whom you can trust. I and do many others are tired out and scared.
I'm at our health practice on Monday, at the Patient Participation Group. I'll check out the latest routes to complain.Your MP might be interested ,too. Mine was quite helpful last year on a health related issue.
You may be right but the surgery protocols are also important and just giving out appointments to people just because they are lonely (happens a LOT) is not good management.
I approve of triage until it goes wrong, like the receptionist who wouldn’t even let me see a nurse about my infected ankle wound - that didn’t end well…..
Receptionists are not involved - it’s an AI system called Animahealth and the practice are happy with it and now the original outrage of some patients who were very anti any algorithm based triage system has died down, most patients at the last meeting I went to seemed happy with the system. The system was built by doctors.
About 170 practices in UK use it catering for about 500,000 patients.
I’m wondering if our surgery uses it, I must ask. There definitely seems to be some receptionist input though. As my husband was fond of saying ‘Rules are for fools and the guidance of wise men’ - needless to say he wasn’t keen on rules 😂
lol don’t we know it. I have a 20 week wait from seeing gp end Nov just to get a 7 day heart halter monitor so I can be referred to cardiology..again. Needless to say I have never seen a cardiologist only phone calls,
That's insane. GP in England is a General Practitioner, correct. I can't imagine waiting 5 weeks to see my GP, especially if it's something urgent. Sorry to hear this.
Bob & I are also in UK and you do have choices so you can change your GP and/or surgery as not all GP’s behave like that and I can get an emergency appointment same day and never had to wait more than 7-10 days BUT our surgery has a triage system so ask a lot of questions before offering appointments - whether you book online, on the phone or in person - everyone has to go through the same protocol. This ensures more urgent cases are seen promptly whilst routine follow up appointments are booked directly with the GP when you see them. It really does depend upon the management of the surgery and their protocols and some are much better than others, not fair to lump all in together.
Does your surgery have extra receptionists? I’m thinking booking must be very slow if every patient has to go through a series of questions, leading to a long frustrated queue if there aren’t many receptionists.
Everyone who can do it online does so which has reduced the number folk who need to phone in meaning dramatically reduction in telephone queues so no, it doesn’t make slower but quicker because you just answer the questions - not at all like 111 nonsense. The offshoot of this is as and when you do have to speak to someone it’s a much less telephone wait time. For instance = 8.30am opening time 2 years ago when I eventually got INTO the queue which took about 30 mins as when ultra busy the lines would just crash, I was No 42 in the queue, last week I phoned because my repeat script need re-authorising No2 in queue and answered within about 2 minutes and spoke to the prescriptions team who had it in front of GP in about 30mins and script sent directly to pharmacy who had within about 4 hours, pick up 2 days later.
You also may not see a GP but see or speak to a Paramedic who works full-time for emergencies, a Social Prescriber - looks after frail/elderly, infants and mental health, a Pharmacist, a Nurse Practitioner or a nurse so the demand on the GPs is much less meaning they can then offer more time to those who really need to speak to doctor. We self refer to MSK so you can’t see a GP for that meaning you get access to specialists almost immediately. E Sussex are currently trialling a fast access full body scan for anyone with suspect cancer.
I have to say it’s a large practice, GP Partner owned, with 5 sites around the town. All of the GP practices decided to join because they couldn’t keep staff, now they do but we can see the same GP, may have to wait a little longer for an appointment, if they are not working in which case you would see an emergency GP or Paramedic. I’m very impressed! Because they have joined forces they get a lot more funding so can employ a lot more support staff.
After cryoablation for AF in June 24 seemed successful, breakthroughs of arrythmia since Christmas have been confirmed as atrial flutter, so I am back on the list, for a second ablation. Could have done without it, but this is a fairly common scenario, so look forward to getting it sorted. Somehow doubt that meds will ever leave the scene, but not bothered if they are necessary .
fyi. The ablation itself does not fail, but it could’ve missed the That is the problem with keeps popping out in new places. It is also extremely difficult for them to get the right spot. You are talking about something so tiny that they try to close that particular spot. The only real side effects are that you continue having a fib or flutter when it decides to pop up and make you feel it in case you haven’t noticed yet it does what it wants when it wants to. the blue one night I think I got up to go to the restroom. I woke up on my floor no recollection of what happened. Somehow I remember getting up partially more like crawling to my bed or so I thought. I woke up again, though this time on my bathroom floor on my back thankfully my head missed and went between the tub and toilet. It’s still traumatic to think what could’ve happened when I fell.
my new EP thinks outside the box and because of that and my condition, including heart failure, we went with a pacemaker and AV node ablation. The younger ones are doing more things like that, including pulse field ablations which cover a large area from what I understand instead of trying to get one spot. The majority all start off the same way beginning with meds, especially anticoagulant. Then they usually move to an ablation although it appears in the UK cardioversions are very popular. I never had one until there was nothing left except that and a pacemaker. My first cardioversion felt wonderful but only for 3 1/2 weeks my second one failed miserably. They had a very hard time with and did the maximum they are allowed of three shocks the plan had been get me in sinus rhythm and they were going to keep for at least five days to be monitored because I was getting a new drug. That did not happen. The pacemaker was the only thing left and I was running out of time. It wasn’t the a fib. It was the heart failure. FYI, if you have not read it on here, you will come to realize a fib does not usually kill you. It’s usually something else there are so many varieties. We are all different.
so try to remember and maybe pass it on that your a fib ablation did is still where the doctor left it just not the right place or you have a new place. It’s a bit like a garden hose after my cat grabbed it with his little so you get holes all over the place
something we almost with a fib because it is not going away even with a pacemaker FYI, what it will do is no longer be able to do damage because the pacemaker will be in charge as long as you have you have your AV node ablated
Most of the time when you do have a fib or flutter try to think of what you were doing or eating or over eating, etc. usually a common denominator. You might even want to keep notes. Sometimes it’s emotional as I said a fib does what it wants. It’s an annoying the way I view it. I’m not afraid of it.
if you are up to it that sounds excellent. Also meditation or even an audiobook if you’re into them. Lol believe it or not ice cream is one of my triggers also a heavy or over eating. It doesn’t have to be a giant plate if it’s heavy to digest or even drinking a lot of anything I don’t mean alcohol. It can even be water because you get bloated. My emotions are my biggest problem. My EP picked up on it better than I did. I had medication for anxiety to be taken as needed. During one of my visits he told me he believes I needed it more than I realize I need it and I need to take it all the time. I thought he was being silly, but it turned out. It was me because sure enough it cut my flutter way back. I have atypical flutter and a fib now being kept quieterbecause of my pacemaker and AV node ablation. I think I had already mentioned even with a pacemaker and AV node you will still fill it. It just no longer causes harm to your heart because the pacemaker is in charge.
I think all of us with a fib, etc. have been through a lot and unfortunately, because there is no cure. We are gonna have bad days, but we are going to have good ones also and a fib is not fatal like other things we could have. I am thankful it is only although I did get heart failure, but it has impressed quite a bit. My EP said there’s nothing I can’t do that other people can do of course I believe within sensibility. I’m probably not joining Cirque du Soleil anytime soon lol
walking meditation and positivity mind-body connection. Keep your mind positive gonna help much more than you realize. Also, if you’re in the hospital, it might get you extra cookies lol
EP John Mandrola’s opinion on catheter ablation: it’s guesswork.
“We don’t know why pulmonary vein isolation works; and we don’t know why it fails. Patients ask how I know where to ablate? This question always makes me smile. Because the true answer is that we do not know. We ablate the same area (PV isolation) in every patient.”
another truthful EP thank you for sharing that this is why they will go in several times hoping to get the right spot. The EP that really made my heart. A mess with scarring told me my flutter was fixed. It was gone. No it was quieted temporarily at least he thought it was actually it was my a fib. My flutter was still very this day when I get the it’s usually flutter once in a while a fib will act up, but not that often. I can tell the difference just by the feeling. As I have said before, neither one really I find it annoying more than anything. Even when it was at its worst before my pace and ablate I didn’t hurt where it was happening. I just felt sick all over and a lot of it was the amiodarone that I had to be taken off of. My doctor was upset. I had not told him sooner how bad it was making me feel. They wanted me on it for six months. I decided to just suck it up for four months and I finally had to tell him how awful it was. That’s what I mean when I say we have a learning curve, including other options for medications. Most of us know, but for those who have never been told, be prepared to need in medication and or dosage if you have a good doctor because they want the right fit for you and if they had all the would probably be a cure as well, but this is just one of those things just like cancer. There are too many variables and we are all different.
there are a few EP‘s similar to mine that are not afraid to think outside the box which is a wonderful thing. My EP has been given a huge position chief of electrophysiology. I am happy for him. Sad for me so now I am about to make a change, but thankfully, it appears I have been blessed to find another one so similar to him even as far as his background don’t just settle. You deserve the best. Everyone does the numbers of people getting a fib are increasing on beginning to wonder if getting I don’t think there’s enough of them. My EP left in October and they have yet to find a replacement for him.
again thank you for sharing what you did from the EP you I hope several people read that to understand. If they were to go look at where they it would look the same as when they it there is nothing failed. It’s just not the right spot
The first ablation didnt fail because it was for afib, not aflutter, Two totally different arrythmias. Its in a different part of the heart. I asked my EP why they dont just proactively ablate the part of my heart for a-flutter just in case and he said he tried to medically get my heart to flutter, but it didnt so he couldnt perform the extra procedure.
It may be that the first ablation didn't fail, and continues to suppress the atrial fibrillation. What I wasn't expecting is that I would then be afflicted by atrial flutter, which is another arrythmia, but different, and needs ablation in a different part of the heart. As I say, not uncommon. Symptoms are very similar. Mine is, thankfully, a slow version, no problem with heart rate but run out of breath on stairs, hills etc., tight chest. Enjoy sinus rhythm while you can.
everyone should enjoy everything that you can do because life truly does change in a heartbeat. I was walking about 5 miles a day swimming good grief you couldn’t get out of the pool and then a fib happened. The fact that you can climb be so thankful. I also have tachycardia and for six months I couldn’t walk and even to stand up the pain in my chest brought tears to my eyes. I said I never knew how much I missed washing dishes until I could no longer stand up long enough to do it. Going down the hallway to the bathroom I would almost my heart rate averaged close to 200 all the time for six months. I could not feel anything below the knees, and if you touched my feet, you would think I had been standing in the freezer
we all need to be more grateful for what we have whether it’s a fib or flutter and where they do the ablation doesn’t really matter. They both feel terrible. Sometimes I think people here get too technical when I write. I try to put it in Laymans terms like my doctor did for me. he taught at the Baylor school of medicine in he has left a good reason. He is now chief of electrophysiology in Jacksonville, Florida. I don’t even know if he is 40 an amazing man. As they say remember, the future is a gift live for today and remember to tell people you love them.
Your GP sounds pretty clueless! You need to get an appointment with at Keady a cardiologist or better still an Electrophysiologist, a cardiologist with special training in arrthymia. If you have trouble convincing your GP to refer you or there are extremely long waits ,try booking.private if you can for the initial consultation.
Now,as far as your Atrial Flutter is concerned. Medication is not very effective for this arrhythmia type,but ablation is extremely successful (90 to 95%) it involves a short run of radio frequency heat . Afl is a pattern of arrhythmia which flows in a circle around the Atrium, either right side or more unusually left side. The RF merely cuts the circuit as in electrical appliances .
It is also less involved than ablation for AFIB as there is ,at least for the usual right side issue no need to put a hole through the septum.( which heals quickly anyway if needed)
I had mine done at the same time as my AFIB ablation. None since not once.
Remember, GPs are just that. General practitioners,know a bit about some things but not specialists.
I’m not sure what you have, Flutter or AF, as you mention both. Looking at your numbers, which are pretty normal on only 120mg Diltiazem it looks like AF? I can see why your GP thinks you are ok on meds and didn’t need an urgent appointment. It will be interesting to hear what the cardiologist says, I have had one say much the same thing and my AF was much worse than yours when I saw him. A severe valve problem might make success less likely but best wishes!
My HR was up 155 and the hospital diagnosed flutter Had a cardioversion did not last I think that is the reason the doctor thinks that may be issue with the volve . Otherwise I think I am fit , not overweight, donot drink or smoke , still can do long walks but at slow speed
My AFIB 3 yrs ago went up to 140s… last year or so Iit hovers at late 70s. Have been onincreased dose of 100mg flecanide x2 for about 2 years.
Just the whole feeling in my chest has changed…basically an annoying flutter rather than a pounding . Curious.
Waiting for. 7 day halter..waiting list currently 20 weeks and I will probably be away when the day it’s available..and of course nothing will happen anyway in the 7 days..before I am referred to cardiologist..for a phone call. Never seen a cardiologist . All done over the phone .
Difficult without ECG. But flutter is regular and AF is irregularly irregular so that’s a clue. Also flutter tends to be based on a fraction of 300, so 150, 100, 75….
I think your doctor could have worded things differently. Did he tell you there is no cure for a fib everything to to pacemaker to help control so we feel better. It depends what type you get as far as ablation they are changing doing more field pulse, etc. from what I’m reading on here with our a fib family they seem to be doing lasted almost 6 months my over a year. You have to realize they are trying to get a tiny little spot like trying to block a hole in a dam. I like that your doctor didn’t give you false hopes but you could be one of the lucky ones that stays with you for a long time. I have other complications. I’m a strange one lol
my EP told me he was not a fan of ablations. He pretty much said the hospitals like him doing them because it He was not their favorite child because he isn’t big on them because they just don’t always work. Just picture a long string of Christmas lights and one of them goes out so you fix it a day or two later, on the other end goes out. Those are actually easier to find than the spot that they need inside our. again like I always say and most of us do we are all different. Don’t give up. Hope if you do end up with a pacemaker. They have come a long way I know because I have one I was unable to walk and had tachycardia I went to the hospital in a wheelchair. They took me out because it’s protocol, but then I was able to stand up and climb into the myself. That’s how quickly I had a change happen. So if you end up needing one, don’t be afraid I also have heart failure that has improved. My ejection rate had been 40s now 70 which is good for someone, my age even without heart failure
if you do end needing reach out to us here Bob and many others have that will be your last ablation your FYI, if you ever need keep this in your head so you don’t get afraid. Even with a you will feel a fib and or flutter the pacemaker stops damage. You will have no further damage from the AV node, which is the natural pacemaker. I’m telling you because not many people talk about it. I was afraid all I had to talk to my doctor and I wasn’t afraid when I found out it was normal
get your head don’t let it run your life or ruin it spend time if you get one think about what you have eaten or what you were doing. Over eating getting stressed things that can trigger it. It’s good when you figure some of them out we have a learning curve that takes time with or without a pacemaker.
best of luck your doctor is a GP not an EP or even a I think he meant well but wait and see and listen to your EP. They told me EP is the where a fib is in. The Cardiologist is the plumber. He does the other stuff. The GP is just that not putting them down but to get to be a takes a lot. If it was that easy, everyone would be one.
It is very kind of you to share your experience and making some suggestions.
I think you may be right about my GP comments , he may not want to build my hope about the ablations . He was showing some concern about the side effects of the ablations.I am worried as the flutters new to me and at the moment it has taken over my life , I was very active person and traveling around . Planning to see EP soon and let’s see what he suggest
ps. try to keep out of your head. Do not let it run or ruin your life. Get angry at it. Tell it it’s not gonna do that to you. If you see my often, I refer to it as an ugly little having temper, tantrums, making us feel miserable. When the is blocked, it can have all the temper tantrums that it wants to. you will feel the feeling just remember it can no longer do damage. I behind a big thick wall hopping around all alone mad because being ignored lol if you have ever seen a commercial Mucinex, a cough medication that creature is a fib and flutter to I have atypical of both
if they stick to routine ablation, you shouldn’t have too many issues. I don’t think don’t quote me unfortunately I had a doctor that was supposed to be a rockstar. He used at one of the most famous practices to be known. I’ll make it quick. He butchered me and my scarring is so severe. My new EP would not even consider ever doing another ablation not only because he thinks they’re ineffective. But because of the scarring, especially with my heart failure that I did not have before that procedure.
my EP and others consider ablations somewhat useless, but there are others that swear by them I know when I had my first two I did get relief but as you know, they don’t necessarily work for all the reasons I mentioned mainly it’s just too hard to find the right spot
Hi Papillone I too have suffered from atrial fibrillation and also developed atrial flutter around 3.5 years ago. After a constant high heart rate of 130bpm for around 2 weeks I was admitted to hospital where I was unsuccessfully treated with various medication for a week eventually squeezed into the regular AF ablation surgery on the Friday morning. The procedure lasted around 45 minutes and the consultant informed me beforehand that there was a very high success rate and it instantly resolved the high heart rate which has remained under control since then with no side effects. I was discharged the same day and took around 3 weeks to overcome the discomfort of the procedure which after a few days was very manageable. I still take bisoporol, Fleicanade and apixaban daily but again don’t appear to have any side effects. I’d have the procedure done again if I needed to without hesitation as touch wood I’ve been fine since and now 62. Hope this helps.
please to know that you have a successful ablation . one question why you still taking Bisoprolol as for as I understand it is not needed after ablation .
I would not decide lightly to have an ablation. It is an invasive procedure with considerable possible risks and side effects, a less than stellar success rate and a serious dose of harmful radiation. I would consider it only if my AF would become VERY symptomatic and permanent, thereby affecting my quality of life tremendously. And so would one of my best friends, a retired cardiologist with AF himself. He calls ablation ‘the cash cow of the cathlab’. So your GP makes sense.
Yes. And many had to have 3 or more, experienced very serious side effects -like a punctured oesophagus- and ended up in a worse arrhythmia than before.
I shall not stop giving people the full facts, because ablation is an invasive procedure with considerable risks (2%) , a huge dose of harmful radiation and only a 50% chance of succes the first time. These are scientific facts, well proven in several recent studies, and patients should be aware of them so as to be able make an informed decision.
Everything I write is wholeheartedly agreed upon by a very experienced cardiologist, and I have had many reactions here of readers who were thankful that they got to see a different angle than the one cardiologists and EP’s usually present.
Everybody who plans to undergo such an invasive procedure deserves to know ALL the facts, not just the biased stance of specialists who are keen to perform as many of these procedures as feasible.
Lots of misinformation here.... Ablation stats include earlier less technological ablations, as well as include all types of afib that the EP will tell you have lower success rates. If you have paroxysmal afib or aflutter with no other heart issues, your odds are way higher than the means. If you have worse types of afib (persistent or permanent) or other heart issues, or refuse to alter your lifestyle a little, you may need more ablations if ablating the pulmonary arteries doesnt work.
So all earlier research is ‘misinformation’ according to you? Then we would still believe that the universe revolves around our planet.
And your insulting tone (‘bitter people like this poster’) is way out of line. If you cannot bare to read the scientific truth you’d better stay away from forums like these.
I care about my colleague AF-sufferers, that’s why I spend my valuable time posting scientific data here and letting people know what my friend’s -an experienced cardiologist- opinion is. I should think that is very valuable.
Do you have many cardiologists or EP’s among your close friends? Then I’m looking forward to read their opinion.
I do think it's your comments that should be removed. I agree with DennisVA. You are scareing people and that's not nice. Your curt tone is equally not nice. Please, people here reading this listen to your EP not a cardiologist they are the plumbers not the electricians. Ablation can be very successful if treated when paroxysmal. The sooner the better. All the best ❤️
My aim is to inform readers here as completely as possible, not to be perceived as ‘nice’. People who are telling the naked facts are often considered ‘curt’ and ‘not nice’ but they should not worry about that.
They should worry about medical professionals pushing an invasive procedure when there are plenty of other, less damaging solutions.
And of course there are scores of patients who have been helped tremendously by an ablation, but that should not divert us from the negative facts that also exist.
Knowing all the pro’s and contra’s is essential to make an informed decision, and it would be unwise to count only upon the people who sell these procedures to tell you the whole story. I know for a fact that many of them do not.
My friend cardiologist knows several colleagues who are ‘hard-sellers’ for anything that involves the use of a cathlab. It’s a hard, commercial world, out there. That aspect is very rarely considered among medical laymen.
I will still disagree. The medications (some of which carry a black box warning and are toxic) can be more damaging long term than the ablation.I have said here (and will continue to stress) that the only person anyone should listen to is the electrophysiologist, they are the experts. My EP tried to control mine with medication but it didn't work, he then informed me that if I continued experiencing the episodes until the AF became persistent or permanent it would be incredibly hard to treat, often requiring more than one ablation which is what you are referring to. Some of us have had the ablation in the early stages and therefore get better results. I doubt very much that they are doing these expensive procedures to hit targets.
I see from your profile you are in Belgium, things may be very different in your country. Here in the UK we have the NHS and I can assure you that money is very tight and they would not be permitted to spend it in this way. I am under one of the best UK heart hospitals in the Country with some of the best consultants in the world. I will stick by the advice of these very experienced consultants.
First of all: you seem to ignore that many, if not most, people who had one or more ablations still are on some of the meds that you call ‘toxic’. My dear mother, who never had an ablation, was on 4 of them because she had permanent AF and lived to be 94, in good condition, except for the last few years.
On the other hand, there are hundreds of horror stories on this forum of patients who had one or more ablations and ended up still in AF. Or with a much more disturbing arrhythmia or other side effect. And in any case with a damaged heart.
You quote an EP saying ‘persistent or permanent AF is incredibly hard to treat’. First of all, and for the record: it is only minimally harder to treat than paroxysmal AF, according to the latest research.
And Secondly, ablation will always be hard, because it’s guesswork. As experienced EP John Mandrola writes: “We don’t know why pulmonary vein isolation works; and we don’t know why it fails. Patients ask how I know where to ablate? This question always makes me smile. Because the true answer is that we do not know. We ablate the same area (PV isolation) in every patient.”
I’m not a gambler, so that kind of ‘hit-or-miss-approach’ is not for me.
You seem to think that the medical world is entirely free of the commercial principles that rule any other business. I agree that it should be, but it isn’t. That’s where my best friend cardiologist’s opinion comes in handy: he has experienced the way hospitals and specialists work from the inside. He will assure you that ‘profit’ is just as high on the list in the medical world as it is in other professions.
If you would see the money and the efforts that catheter-producing companies like Boston Scientific are spending on influencing cardiologists and EP’s, you would immediately change your mind. The cathlabs are ‘booming business’ for companies like these.
Therefore it is very hard to find an unbiased opinion from these specialists. They’re only human and while they would never hurt a patient on purpose to make more money (as I sincerely hope), they will have no objection promoting one (profitable) solution while not all other -less profitable- pathways have been exhausted.
I’m a good example of this myself: I have seen 5 radiologists/EP’s in total: they ALL mentioned ablation immediately as the ‘ideal solution’ for my paroxysmal but very frequent AF while I was taking Sotalol.
Together with my friend cardiologist and a friend GP, we decided to stop all arrhythmic medication. Now I’m in sinus 95% of the time, with just a betablocker and an anti-coagulant. If I would have followed the five ‘specialists’ I would have a scarred heart now.
As per this experience and the unbiased opinions that I was able to collect, all the other possible solutions (meds, lifestyle,…) should be exhausted first before an invasive and damaging procedure like an ablation is selected. And of course for some patients is is the best -or sometimes even the only- solution.
But certainly not for everyone.
I’ll leave it at this, have a wonderful day, and all the best!
I choose to ignore your comments, as I said before we are in the UK and have some of the finest consultants in the world who I can assure you have the patients interests and wellbeing at heart. You don't mention your country whereby it may be done for profit. You are not a doctor and it is wrong to say it's guess work, that's a very damning comment and I do hope that this is removed from the forum. Consultants in our country use sophisticated technology even more improved now. I can also assure you that it's not the same area ablated in all people, I know that for a fact as mine was very complex.
Just to have the facts correct: if you would read my comment instead of ignoring it, you would have known that the ‘guess work’ description considering ablations is not from me.
These are the words of a very experienced EP, who does hundreds of ablations a year in the US. This is what he wrote in his online blog, available to read for everyone: “We don’t know why pulmonary vein isolation works; and we don’t know why it fails. Patients ask how I know where to ablate? This question always makes me smile. Because the true answer is that we do not know. We ablate the same area (PV isolation) in every patient.”
So removing this quote from the forum would mean throwing the opinion of a skilled, experienced professional away. How sad would that be?
Instead, let’s be glad that there are still medical professionals like him, who prefer to be blunt about the truth.
You are too opinionated. As I said in the UK it is different. You are not a doctor and neither am I . I stand by what I said "The lovely people in this forum need to listen to the experienced EPs that is why they do the job they do"!
You are just stating one person's opinion. Technology has moved on considerably and I can assure you my ablation wasn't the common pulmonary veins as you say. I sincerely hope that people don't always wait until AF becomes persistent and/or permanent and it's too difficult to treat
I wholeheartedly disagree, it's scaremongery. I have just been talking to my GP about it today. Anyone who undergoes such a procedure will no doubt listen to the facts and risks given to them by their experienced EP, this is what I did. The risk of oesophageal fistula was explained to me along with the other risks. Oesophageal fistula is extremely rare. Why don't you tell us how many have experienced this instead of making sweeping statements, and it's minimally invasive - fact.
You do quote 50% success at first attempt, this is correct if you are persistent or permanent AF not those who have this treated early on when paroxysmal. The success rates at first ablation are 80% and above in this category. This can be read in many of the studies
Totally agree with this and so far my husband is living proof. One known AF episode, cardiologist wanted to do an ablation sooner rather than later due to the higher success rate, he had an ablation within 6 weeks. Over two years later, not a peep from his heart. His recovery was also very easy and he was back surfing a week later!
I had quad heart bypass 1998 then started with AF in 2013 after drinking session had cardioverion 3 months later was OK then with just a few palpitations now and then taking 1.5 mg bisoprolol and Warfarin, had few episodes in A and E till on holiday Spain 2022 pulse went up to 130 came back to UK 3 days later and ended up in hospital they recommended Ablation for atrial flutter so I paid to see Cardiologist, was 250 quid he put me on waiting list 4 months later had Ablation had follow up 6 months later paid 180 been ok since, he said atrial flutter is easier to sort than AF because it only effects a smaller area , now only take Warfarin, in certain cases I think it's better to pay for quick advice
Don't know where your GP is coming from, I think this is just his opinion. Is he the expert? GPs have different opinions, mine was all for ablation. I understand that flutter is easily 'cured' with ablation. I had flutter and AF and was ablated for both last March. So far no episodes that I am aware of
Well I had my Atrial Flutter Ablation, a 2 hour procedure, in November 2019, I was 65. Over 5 years ago and I have never felt better. Before I had it, my heart was missing beats all over the place, bit like an old car spluttering along the highway not firing on all cylinders. Before I could only manage 50 metres walking without a rest, whereas yesterday I walked 15 kilometres with one stop off for a cup of tea. My heart now never skips a beat and is within a normal range of bpm. My initial advice is to request (not ask) blood thinners from your doctor, then to again request (not ask) for a referral to a heart surgeon at your nearest local hospital. It is the Cardiologist not the GP who is the expert in these cases. All the best to you.
Hi there, I had paroxysmal Atrial Fibrillation for 7 years then Atrial Flutter joined the party which made me feel like I was in AF all the time but I wasn't it was the flutter. My Specialist Cardiologist at Guys St Thomas Hospital was amazing. He told me that Atrial Flutter is easy to fix with an ablation 99.9% succesful no side affects. They did the ablation and fixed both. So I dont understand why youve been told that. Also your GP is not an expert. Im sure a Cardiologist/Electrophysiologist will tell you very different and encourage you to go ahead.
A-flutter, in EP terms, is the most curable of arrythmias. It always comes from one spot on the back of the atria and the procedure is quick. Never once has an EP said to me that an ablation will lead to a pacemaker. Thee are some types of afib, persistent and permanent, that have lower odds than paroxysmal, but treatments are getting better all the time. Fire this GP as he is not up with the times, or is relying on anecdotal evidence as opposed to the science.
Re ablations for AF, you might like to read this short Barts AF article on who is eligible for ablations in 2024 according to current NHS guidelines ...
An interesting takeaway for me is the introduction of a "no more than 2" ablations limit (with clinical exceptions). As a consequence, besides arbitrary cost considerations, I can't help wondering, along with the reports of Forum members who have received multiple failed ablations, whether this new limit might also reflect more accurately a reappraisal of the clinical effectiveness of ablations, their risks, and their consequent permanent scarring of the inside of the heart.
Omg! See an EP your GP is totally misinformed. An ablation can actually cure flutter. Ablation for A fib is a treatment as it cannot be cured. Ablation for flutter has something like a 98-99% success rate and is 1st line treatment. I had an ablation for both a fib and a flutter on 7/31/24 and have had zero symptoms. Like I said, see a specialist and don’t wait to long.
I had a right-side ablation for atrial flutter Feb. 2024 and have been in sinus rhythm ever since. This was after a year of being in persistent aflutter. From what I understand, ablation for a flutter has a very high success rate compared with afib. If it’s contained to the right atrium like mine was, trapped in a counter clockwise loop, they go in and burn a fire break in the loop, ending the arrhythmia. They don’t have to go through the septum of the heart dividing the right and left atrium to cauterize the left side the way they have to for afib, which makes for a less complicated and risky procedure. I was able to come off blood thinner shortly after. Only on carvedilol now. So far so good.
I had the same in 2019 and only the drug digoxin was able to reduce the racing of my heart. My GP recommended an ablation which I had in the summer of that year. It was on the right side of the upper heart chamber, the atrium. That stopped the atrial flutter but, around a year later, I began having palpitations from the left side of the atrium eventually causing atrial fibrillation. I’m on a waiting list for a second ablation for that, and have been told the success rate is around 70%, but if a third ablation is required, that would increase to 90+%.
Your GP has advised against ablation. Of course, he or she knows you and your health history well and will have had that in mind when advising you. GPs often have the advantage over specialists of seeing their patients for much longer periods. That said, as others have written here, an ablation for atrial flutter is often the only way to reduce its symptoms. In my case, they were quite severe, although how much was fear and anxiety, I shall never know. I’m glad for the ablation.
That said, at least one person here has spelled out the risks involved and it’s also true that a second, even third ablation might be needed. Indeed, my son’s colleague has had, I believe, five in not six and the last has now failed and he has been told there is too much scarring for him to have another. He’s coping well, though, with the symptoms from his flutter and fibrillation.
In the end, I would say it depends on how well you cope with the symptoms from your arrhythmias and how successful yoyr tablets are at helping.
Atrial arrhythmias are rarely dangerous even in the long term (an elderly friend has had permanent Afib for very many years, and is well enough for 91!).
You didn’t say whether you’ve had a scan yet - if not, you must press for one (i.e. an echo / echocardiogram). These are important to see how healthy your heart is.
My dear mother lived to be 94 with -at least- 30 years of AF. If the rate is under control, AF is a nuisance for people like her, but no more than that.
Hi! I am 72, I was diagnosed 12/31/2024 with A-Flutter. In 8/2021 I had a total heart block, my heart rate went to 20. They installed a pacemaker. My heart and the new kid, pacemaker, did not get along and I was getting a lot of shortness of breath, also PVC's which I was not feeling, and heart muscle was getting weaker. In 6/2023 they replaced the 2-lead pacemaker with a 3 lead. Everything was great for about 16 months. Then more shortness of breath and now I have A-flutters. From what my EP, and Cardio doctors are saying the ablation cures it 95% of the time. However, it can reoccur, and it can also change into A-Fib. I am scheduled for the ablation on 2/25/2025 and hoping for the best. From what I also understand is that the A-Flutters is not letting my pacemaker do the job it is supposed to because of this circuit it is doing. This is just part of my ailments, I just found out I also have Severe Chronic Pancreatitis and Gastritis. I was put on Digestive Enzymes. Both these ailments hit me at the same time, it is over-whelming at times! (Also, High Blood Pressure and Type 2 Diabetic, both well controlled with meds). Good Luck to you!
I had an ablation for flutter and had 18 months free of medication apart from pill in pocket occasionally for a fib. I felt better and was able to travel and do more. As things progress i find i am now in need of a pacemaker to help control a fib symptoms. I would always recommend an electrocardiologist who understands electronics of heart.
Atrial flutter is debilitating. I was running to the hospital ER all of last fall. I had RF ablation for flutter. Dr said it has over 95% success rate. They know exactly where to ablate. I'm 10 weeks post-ablation. I'm glad I did it. I didn't want to be on meds the rest of my life. Good luck to you.
Get referred to a good electrophysiologist and have an ablation. It is the way to go now even over meds as it’s not going to get better. Ablation was successful for me and it’s been 4 years no meds . Thank god!
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