Excellent Video on Weight Training for Seniors/Deconditioned

[London441]

I freely admit that most of my posts and comments are exercise related, especially the critical importance and truly inspiring benefits of weight lifting. It really is that important. On ADT all the more so. I rarely post video links, but I couldn’t help myself on this one.

In it, Australian professor Belinda Beck talks about studies with older people put on a heavy lifting program.

Lest anyone turn away at the mention of ‘heavy’ lifting, she explains in detail the misconceptions about lifting for older/diseased/unfit/out of shape, and the myriad reasons why lifting is not only safe but life changing- in the best ways for such persons.

The emphasis on getting a specifically skilled trainer (for many) is key, and of course being smart and careful from the start.

Again, the biggest reason I decided to post is because of the number of men on this site and elsewhere in the Pca community that offer a host of ‘legitimate’ excuses why they are unable to weight train. It really hurts me to still see outdated and erroneous warnings against lifting for the elderly.

Dr Beck addresses this well, and of course if any of you are familiar with the work of Dr Peter Attia, you know these 2 are a couple of very fine experts on the very subject.

As I always like to say, lifting is magnificent, life changing and essential -especially for older people, and particularly men who are dealing with testosterone suppression.

youtu.be/GNFjprSd57E?si=STu...(Not working as expected?)

[mrscruffy]

Preaching to the choir brother

[London441 in reply to mrscruffy]

If the shoe fits Mr Scruffy!

[JohnInTheMiddle]

*** Dec 30th - Additional material added up to 11:07 a.m. Eastern Time ***

TL;DR - Strength exercises are great! But don't ignore mPCa-driven skeletal risk.

This is great London. Super thanks for sharing. I will watch. Issue for me though is three cancer-comprised vertebrae. Deadlifts and other strength training exercises may not be safe for me!

I dodged a bullet at the beginning where spinal cord damage was concerned. With vertebral bone "lucency" of 30% on the scans. At 30% compromise on the vertebral bone puts me at high risk for breaking my back. So "don't twist". No more deadlifts.

Reading up reveals that for bones-at-risk folks in our metastatic club there is the idea of "biomechanical engineering analysis". This phrase comes from an academic paper. The point of the paper is that this would be a good idea for people with bone lesions due to metastatipc prostate cancer.

Except, according to the paper, the field of scientific bone fracture and breakage risk assessment for metastatic prostate cancer patients, using the tools of biomechanical engineering analysis, really doesn't exist yet, especially on clinical front lines. So us patients are on our own.

If you do the stats, the risk of "decline to the end" can be triggered after a bone break. There are multiple reasons why a bone break is associated with the end of one's journey. To have better understanding on guidance for metastatic prostate cancer patients with bone lesions is a big opportunity for all of us and for the medical community. "Don't twist" is not really that helpful. And generic exercise coaching, while helpful over all in terms of strength and cardiovascular fitness, is not useful for lesion-driven specific skeletal compromise risk.

And in the meantime, all we have is more drugs, such as Denusomab etc. etc. - which is not the same thing as biomechanical risk analysis and specific coaching.

[Survivor1965 in reply to JohnInTheMiddle]

I guess Im dumb but I cant make sense of this post.

[Mgtd in reply to Survivor1965]

Survivor1965 Sometimes people are so wrapped up in the details that they assume us readers have all their background knowledge and consequently fail to move from jargon to explanations.

Not their fault in most cases. They just may not have that ability or have not synthesized the information to explain it to the average reader. This is a very difficult skill to master.

Complete knowledge of material requires the ability and willingness to communicate at all levels. It is also the limitation of one way communication such as writing.

[Survivor1965 in reply to Mgtd]

Thank you

[JohnInTheMiddle in reply to Mgtd]

Okay I rewrote the reply above to add more details. I'm basically saying that men with various invasions of the skeleton in different places of the body by metastatic prostate cancer don't have much support for managing that risk. Skeletal risk seems to me to be almost ignored. And if you get a life-changing bone break, wow, such a surprise, too bad.

And the specific field which would be the right body of knowledge to help (biomechanical engineering analysis of the skeleton) is only at the beginning of its development both as a field of research and in terms of clinical practice. And so is basically not available.

There are so many issues that a man with metastatic prostate cancer has to deal with; the issue of skeletal risk is just another one. And the risk of catastrophic skeletal event is probably more important then we give it credit for. Along with cardiovascular risk.

Apparently at least a 30% of us die from a heart attack which is a consequence of our therapies, not just because of age and health.

So I suppose the fact that 1965 complained, I should be glad, because at least the post was read. Maybe the additional material will make the topic more clear. (I have been accused from time to time of writing posts that are too long 😃.) This topic as you can imagine is important to me. But I do get tired sometimes. Because I don't exercise enough.

2025 should bring good news and steady maintenance of decent health for everybody that needs to participate in this forum.

[Survivor1965 in reply to JohnInTheMiddle]

Thank you for the added info John. It helped. The part about the heart attack stat got my attention big time.

Regards

[London441 in reply to JohnInTheMiddle]

Yours are certainly not the longest posts around here, for sure. And they’re good.

I still believe (as the best experts I know on the subject and do) that activity always beats lack of it. Mobility is what we need when we’re old, if we’re to thrive at all. I am personally always invested in this premise, even if there may be unforeseen consequences. I’ll take my chances. You have a Happy New Year and keep posting!

[JohnInTheMiddle in reply to London441]

Thanks London! And we are 100% on the same page where activity and mobility is concerned. I am remiss in this right now. I compare the year ending now with the previous year. And the volume of my exercise is sort of about half the previous year. Which is really stupid. Time to ramp up again 😳

[London441 in reply to Survivor1965]

Do you mean the original post or the ‘biomechanical engineering analysis’ reply?

[Survivor1965 in reply to London441]

John clarified his bio mechanical post and that was nice.

Then your post had the scary stat about heart attack which got my attention.

Many thanks

[garyjp9 in reply to JohnInTheMiddle]

John, I am in a similar situation as you, and I thought this was an excellent post that presents the conundrum that men like us face with some of these exercises.

[JWPMP]

Thank you for this !!!!

[BL2023]

There are so many benefits, mental and physical, to weight lifting, whether one is dealing with PCa or not. Great post, and lots of evidence for the “it’s never too late” principle to start. I’ll refer folks here to another podcast focusing often on the over 50-60 year old & weight training, Dan John. And do not think machines at your local planet fitness do you no good: that’s the perfect place to start or return to for safety, ease of use, and benefits.

[Mgtd in reply to BL2023]

Totally concur! Thanks for posting this.

[Ian99]

Thanks for posting this. Made me feel guilty as I listened to it, knowing I need to do more. A good new year’s resolution.

[Mgtd in reply to Ian99]

The keys are starting and consistency till it becomes a habit and you feel guilty if you miss a workout.

[dhccpa]

Your comments are always worthwhile.

Regarding the issue of gymnacostia (sp?), do you know if anyone facing that possibility (through estrogen, bicalutamide, etc.) has in essence prevented or defeated it purely through resistance training? It's an issue that seems to come up frequently on the forum.

Thanks.

[Mgtd in reply to dhccpa]

I can only speak for myself. The only two things I had to overcome ADT/radiation and its effects were exercise and diet.

It probably does help that all my life I have believed that perseverance and dedication will overcome most obstacles to a reasonable level. Having a positive mind set is critical.

[dhccpa in reply to Mgtd]

I was asking about gynecomastia, breast growth caused by estrogen or bicalutamide, or perhaps even Xtandi or Nubeqa.

[Mgtd in reply to dhccpa]

I do not have that due to tamoxifen and I work diligently on chest work with weights. Also diet will help with that. The key to reducing body fat is diet not exercise. Exercise is for toning and sculpting. Hope that helps

.

[dhccpa in reply to Mgtd]

Yes thanks. The Tamoxifen worked well? You started beforehand or as they appeared? I haven't had the issue yet, but have been following it in case I use something that creates the issue.

[Mgtd in reply to dhccpa]

The key i was told was to start before. Like the Casodex to prevent surge when starting ADT. After 2 months my RO told me I could stop it to see what happened. It has been fine but remember I do some chest work every day to firm and sculpt my chest.

[dhccpa in reply to Mgtd]

Thanks again. That'll give me some good info if I start estrogen.

[London441 in reply to Mgtd]

The key to reducing body fat is a combination of diet and exercise, although I can agree completely that you cannot ‘exercise your way out’ of being fat. Sadly, many have no idea of how little we must eat to be in caloric deficit. Exercise does help greatly by allowing us to eat a bit more. It also makes one hungry though, so there’s that😀

[Cancer2x in reply to Mgtd]

A wise man once said, “The force of the waves is in their persistence.”

[Spinel_Cutter in reply to dhccpa]

I'll add my two cents. I'm on Orgovyx + Abi and fearful of gynecomastia. I even asked my Onc to allow me to take Tamoxifen, and he said: "Nope, ask again if you have symptoms." Gynecomastia freaks me out.

I'll say that it is impossible for any amount of weight training to prevent or defeat gynecomastia if they are on a program where testosterone is limited. And if they were not, I would think that gynecomastia would not be an issue.

Weight training does increase testosterone (see healthline.com/health/does-... but no amount of weight training that I could do (and I do quite a lot) will increase my T because my meds prevent it.

I cannot think of any other mechanism (other than an increase in T) that would stop, or prevent gynecomastia.

That being said. If I develop signs/symptoms of gynecomastia I want either Tamoxifen or Radiation to the chest.

I do have to agree with my doc about using Tamoxifen to prevent gynecomastia in my case because Tamoxifen uses Cytochrome P450 enzyme systems that my med use. Therefore, if I take Tamoxifen and it competes with the same systems my Orgo/Abi uses that could cause a significant rise in blood levels of my meds, leading to more adverse effects.

Do realize that while Tamoxifen and/or Radiation to the chest can stop gynecomastia, it does not reverse it (there might be some reversal with Tamoxifen, it's confusing). So, should you start to develop symptoms (breast tenderness, swelling) act on it. Breast tissue removal on men as a last-ditch solution, well, I have not seen any photos of male breast reduction that looked (after surgery) even reasonable.

[Survivor1965 in reply to Spinel_Cutter]

My moobs (man boobs) are epic 🤪

[dhccpa in reply to Spinel_Cutter]

Thanks! Grim subject indeed. I think TA weighed in that Tamoxifen was better as well.

[Spinel_Cutter in reply to dhccpa]

Hmmm... you could change your screen name to Dolly_Survivor1965. Actually, I have a guy whose man-boobs are also epic, and quite frankly, he does not care one way or another. Different strokes for different folks.

[dhccpa in reply to Spinel_Cutter]

I haven't had the issue yet, but I'm following the issue of estrogen usage and want to be prepared if I go there. Or even if I start Xtandi.

[Survivor1965 in reply to Spinel_Cutter]

I only care about the moobs because I live in AZ and every other day Im at a pool here or there. People have commented about them and when I try and explain that Im on hormones and have no testosterone on my body they all say the same thing- why don't you take testosterone boosters lol

No one gets it. I just look like a 59 yr old who doesnt take care of himself when in reality I was a kick ass cyclist and current gym rat. But those damn meds...

[London441 in reply to Survivor1965]

“Why don’t you take testosterone boosters?”

Wow.

[London441 in reply to dhccpa]

Being as lean and strong as possible is always key re: gynecomastia. The distinction is prevention vs treatment. I was starting to get them at one point, but Tamoxifen combined with training, better diet and the resulting more favorable body composition (less fat) worked well for me.

Once you have it I’m not sure. Smaller/less visible ones are preferable to larger no doubt but any success in reversing it is something worth knowing. I have heard of good results radiating them in such cases.

[dhccpa in reply to London441]

Thanks. I want to be prepared if I start something that might cause it. I do exercise and plant based diet, but might be best to get a little Tamoxifen ahead of time. I do resistance but can always do much more.

[Survivor1965]

Hey London, I'm confused about your bio. Is it your bio? I kind of read it as its someone else's.

Anyway, so glad you posted the video. I have been doing this PC for 12 years beginning at Gleason 9 and very nasty. Its an absolute miracle I'm even still here. Its been a heck of a ride, them telling me I have x number of yrs and beating it every time.

I have always worked out and also was a competitive cyclist upon diagnosis. After the weight gain and the body beginning to break down I ditched my Lance Armstrong carbon fiber bike and continued in the gym for the last 7 yrs, but Ive always supplemented lifting with the bike riding.

3 months ago the pain got unbearable, even with the butrans patch, so I gave the gym a break. The weight gain was already ridiculous but now at 265 lbs its unbearable. I'm big boned and was an even 200 lbs if solid fitness at diagnosis but this weekend my 3 yr old grandson, as he sat in my lap while I read Twas The Night Before Christmas, asked me if I was going to have a baby

Long story short, I need some motivation to get back to Planet Fitness. In the 3 months since Ive stopped I have declined rapidly. I feel like a slug, lumbering around with an unsteadiness that has become very obvious to my family. But its so hard, no testosterone, low motivation, lots of pain and discomfort. But I have to get back.

I have been toiling with this for weeks then you post this video. I think its a God thing, I really do. The timing of it. Im going to watch the video now and hope something in it gives me the motivation I need to start back on Thursday.

I appreciate you posting and with great things for you and all on the site for 2025.

Peace, John

[BL2023 in reply to Survivor1965]

A little bit every day over time. Find a gym close to you and/or , if possible, create a simple home gym. It can be as simple as some exercise tubes and a 5lb/10lb dumbbell. And simply walking through a doorway at home can be the key to unlocking the consistency issue. If you have the finances and room, I’d recommend a used bowflex (plenty on Facebook marketplace). It’s easy to use, SAFE, and does the job. You got this!

[Survivor1965 in reply to BL2023]

Thanks for that info. We do have a really nice rowing machine, my wife actually bought it for her because I’ve always gone to Planet Fitness. Right now it’s a coat hanger. Now she’s getting big too. I think I agree a bow flex would be better, more versatile. We need lots of motivation and life changes over here.

Peace

[London441 in reply to Survivor1965]

I feel for you with the extra weight and low energy. It’s just really hard getting behind, and disease makes it that much tougher. Yet you already know the difference training makes and that starting back slow and steady will pay off. The alternative is a life increasingly not worth living , and of course you don’t want that.

It’s my bio all right, though I’m not sure I’ve updated it in a while. I’m very fortunate to have been in a solid remission for 3 1/2 years now, no drugs. Although I was ‘only’ a Gleason 7 (4+3), I was a high percentage of 4 and half my cores were 80-100% saturated. Also lymph node positivity and seminal vesicle invasion. So I live in today only, so to speak.

Get back to it and play ball with the grandkid! Happy New Year.

[Mgtd]

Thanks you so much for posting this video. Unfortunately my wife never believed in “sweating” so at 80 she is paying the price for a lifelong lack of exercise.

For example her gripe and leg strength is so poor I now have to walk two steps ahead of her on the 8 steps it takes to exit our house. I do this to act like a bumper guard in case she falls. Luckily I am still able to do this. Muscle mass and bone health along with cardio health are critical to successful aging.

Of course you and I will never convince those that are “unwilling” but I appreciate your efforts at spreading this word.

Enjoy your New Year!

[London441 in reply to Mgtd]

Sorry about your wife. Encourage her to move more anyway! You’re spot on about leading the horse to water etc but any small difference we can make is profoundly worth it. Happy New Year to you also!

[Daveofnj]

Orthopedic surgeons would love this advice. Ka-Ching.

[MarkS]

Can I ask what weight exercises you did to improve hip bone strength, particularly the femoral neck? My knees are a bit dodgy and painful. I can squat most of the way down with an 8kg kettlebell but I'm not sure about 70kg deadlifts. I can do body conditioning classes and aerobics but I'm not sure if they're stressing the hips enough?

I used to cycle quite a bit but I've stopped that as I'm concerned about falling off my bike, especially with the number of potholes in my corner of Hampshire. I tried a spin class this morning but my knees are knackered now, spinning requires a strange forward stance when standing on the pedals to stop the seat digging into your back. I'm on ADT (1 year done 1 year to go) hence the concern.

[London441 in reply to MarkS]

Squats, lunges, deadlifts. Believe it or not box jumps and step ups too.

But for you? Ride a stationary bike, not the spinning type. Weights-Forget the weight for now entirely and squat as low as possible with good form, tight core, no rounded back. You might have to hold on to a rack in front of you, or those TRX cables. Maybe even chair sits.l at first. The form is far more important than the weight. Do a lot of them . Learn to Asian (low) squat and your knees will soon respond and thank you. Most old people won’t load their knees in an effort to help them. Do the opposite.

[MarkS in reply to London441]

Thanks for that. I'll try those out. I can do a deep squat with TRX straps so I need to do more of those. I think I'll give up the spinning bikes for now and just go on a stationary bike once I get closer to finishing the ADT. A bike doesn't appear to strengthen bones as much as the other exercises you mention. I'll also do more star jumps and squat jumps.

[BL2023 in reply to MarkS]

London441, great advice. I was thinking the TRX is a great tool for squats rather than weights. Another option to add to the tool box, wall sits. YouTube them, great for engaging muscles is a safe low impact high reward way. I’ve taken to early morning hanging from a pull-up bar 30-60 seconds, followed with a deep squat (Asian style). These might help a long as the deep squats don’t flare up damaged knees. Body weight movements are very underrated; again, YouTube can be your friend. All the best.

[London441 in reply to BL2023]

Oh yes sure. We did wall sits in high school sports, but of course they’re still popular, including among Major League Baseball players of course. Boring but very effective!

youtu.be/CDi2OHB_us4?si=-sw...(Not working as expected?)

[j-o-h-n]

I gave up heavy lifting when my big heavy willy became my tiny shrunken willy. Have a great 2025.

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n

[London441 in reply to j-o-h-n]

‘Fat Bottom Girls they make the rockin’ world go ‘round’ John you know that. May you still lift heavy and often with that tiny willy-if only in your dreams😀