Dr Thomas Seyfried, how to Starve can... - Advanced Prostate...
Dr Thomas Seyfried, how to Starve cancer.
sounds good but where is the science?
I can't even find any reputable science to show that a carnivore diet is bad for PCa. Even though that's what everyone believed. What makes you think that this is any different? 😁
I think people hope for an easy fix
I doubt people who have consumed meat and dairy for 60 years find it an easy fix to give it up.
However, the major prostate cancer info centers like Mayo, UCSF, and PCF do (or did recently, haven't looked today) advocate increased plant consumption and mention limiting meat and dairy. I suspect that has more to do with it. I don't know what science those sources are relying on.
Most of what I have seen is the default "heart healthy is PCa healthy". Thus, increased fruits and veggies and decreased meat and dairy. Guidelines are similar to the AHA diet.
I personally put Thomas Seyfried firmly into the “quack” category. You might find these articles about him interesting:
scienceblogs.com/tag/thomas...
sciencebasedmedicine.org/ke...
I don’t totally discount general health benefits of low carb eating and calorie restrictions, but as others have said in regards to Seyfried, where’s the science to back his claims?
On a recent PCa patient education Zoom meeting at City Of Hope, it was mentioned that a couple of their top doctors are started to look intermittent mimic fasting benefits.
Thing is, most of the science papers that are around I believe you can pick holes in. With a few clicks you can get the total opposite results to what you read.
As for Seyfried there's some things he say that has some credbility. I wouldn't personally be labelling him as a 'quack'.
IMO his theory that cancer is a metabolic disease and not genetic has credability. I've not been down in the weeds about it, but I think it's been shown that if you replace healthy mitochrondira in a cancerous cell, the cell doesn't become cancerous. The other way around, a damaged mitochrondia in a healthy cell, and cancer is the result. This implies that its metabolic. I don't believe this is quckery.
Also, the use of a ketogenic diet, as anyone who has tried it will testify, definitely takes down your glucose. Isn't cancer supposed to love glucose? The issue being pointed out by Seyfried is that it can also consume glutamine - the most abundant amino acid in the body - unfortunately. Although he claims to have a drug to tackle that and use some 'pulse' treatment to stress the cancer out. Although a keto diet won't remove PCa is plausable that restricting the glucose has a positive effect. I can't see why this is quackery either.
Also, it's like I've stated before, I can find no credible scientific evidense that the carnivore diet is detremental to PCa. If you can find any, I'd like to see it. Yet, you have a LOT of people who are avoiding keto/carnivore type diets and opting for Vegan diets... but this is prodominantely carbohydrates - which do what? Turn to glucose.
Truth is, nobody knows. You can read all the papers you want - I can gaurantee that none of them have the answer or we'd all be in the cured category. So labelling him as a quack isn't something I'd agree with.
Prostate Cancer does not feed on sugar.
It depends on it's stage.
Also, Sigfreid doesn't specialize in PCa - he refers to all cancers in general.
Good luck following his advice.
Prostate Cancer’s Sweet Tooth
June 22, 2020 | By JANET FARRAR WORTHINGTON
pcf.org/c/prostate-cancers-...
Cancer loves sugar, and sugar really loves cancer. Isn’t that sweet? Actually, no, it’s more like a match made in hell – because sugar (glucose) makes many types of cancer grow faster.
Scientists have long known that cancers soak up glucose like a sponge; in fact, German physiologist Otto Warburg, who found that tumors extract glucose at a rate 20 to 50 times higher than do normal cells, won the 1931 Nobel Prize for his research on metabolism.
Prostate cancer can take up sugar at a higher rate, too, says renowned scientist and PCF-funded investigator Lew Cantley, Ph.D., Director of the Sandra and Edward Meyer Cancer Center at Weill Cornell Medicine.
But Cantley’s studies suggest that it’s not so much the amount of glucose in your bloodstream that helps promote cancer, as it is the level of insulin, the hormone made by the pancreas that controls glucose...
“Why does the tumor take up more glucose?” Cantley continues. “The main reason is that insulin can turn on the glucose transporters (proteins on cell membranes that carry glucose into cells), similar to those in the liver, muscle and fat. The presence of those glucose transporters on tumor cells is in part regulated by insulin. That’s why I keep focusing on the insulin.”
Cantley began studying the insulin receptor in the 1980s, when he was on the faculty at Harvard University. A few years later, after moving to Tufts University, he discovered an enzyme called phosphoinositide-3-kinase (PI3K); PI3K signals cells that insulin is present; the cells, in turn, open the valve that lets in sugar. Normally, PI3K does good and vital work, helping cells survive, grow and proliferate. But sometimes it goes awry; in Type II diabetes, this PI3K pathway becomes sluggish, cells don’t respond appropriately to insulin and become insulin-resistant. But in cancer, even in someone who’s insulin-resistant, PI3K does its job too well; glucose floods in, tumor cells feast on sugar and grow faster. “What we now know is that mutations in the PI3K pathway make tumor cells hyperactive in response to insulin.”
In many cancers – sugar-loving cancers (not all cancers are addicted to sugar, but many are) – PI3K is like a power switch that drives growth. “PI3K is the most frequently mutated cancer-promoting gene in humans,” says Cantley. It may be involved in as many as 80 percent of cancers, including breast cancer, bladder cancer, and certain brain tumors.
What about prostate cancer? Well, one of the most common genetic events in prostate cancer is the loss of a gene called PTEN; cancer just knocks this gene out. “PTEN makes an enzyme that reverses what PI3K does. PI3K makes a lipid, and PTEN destroys that lipid; you have to have a balance between those two enzymes to keep growth under control. But in prostate cancer, and in breast cancer , the loss of PTEN activates production of this lipid that drives cell growth.
“This tells us we probably should try to keep insulin levels as low as possible if we have cancer, to try to keep the tumor from growing. If we can keep the diet under control, or exercise to keep glucose levels and insulin levels low, we have a much better chance of slower growth of the tumor. Our research would also argue that pharmacological intervention would be more effective if we keep insulin levels low.”
Seyfried claims you can eradicate all cancers following his plan. Excuse my language, but that's utter bullshit, and that's my problem with Seyfried.
Ketogenic eating might slow tumor growth, but it won't stop it, and it certainly won't eradicate it. Even the lengthy article you posted above concludes with that same opinion: “This tells us we probably should try to keep insulin levels as low as possible if we have cancer, to try to keep the tumor from growing. If we can keep the diet under control, or exercise to keep glucose levels and insulin levels low, we have a much better chance of slower growth of the tumor. "
As I said above, I don't discount the benefits of avoiding sugars, but Seyfried takes the claims too far and has no science to prove he can cure prostate cancer with it.
Thank you for your feedback.
You are welcome. I agree with you on the fervor over ketogenic eating. Avoiding insulin spikes seems more relevant and more achievable.
Cancers don’t feed equally or even similarly. The quackery is in leading people to believe that they do, and perpetuating the lie that diet matters far more than it actually does.
Besides the sugar myth, exercise matters far more for mitochondrial health and quality longevity than diet. Yet there is always more prattle about diet because dietary changes, however temporary, are far more attractive than exercising.
Apart from glucose and glutamine, what other sources do you know of that cancers feed on?His argument is if you remove these two sources effectively you can kill the cancer.
Also his claim is they are metabolic. Do you disagree with that? Metabolism is associated with diet.
Maybe..
Do your research. It feeds on what it can, and is incredibly adaptive and relentless.
You cannot starve it. He’s selling snake oil, and not with any originality. It’s nothing but a variation on a popular shtick.
How many have tried starving cancer? Untold numbers. If it worked we would know about it. It doesn’t.
There has always been zero information in your bio, which continues to perpetuate a trust issue.
I have done my research. Maybe I'm not as good as you in researching though.So, maybe you can clarify your thoughts what does cancer feed on other than glucose and glutamine?
Also do you believe cancer is metabolic or genetic?
He claims is metabolic and hence the link to diet which you refute.
These are his claims,not mine. I'm just not understanding what reason you have to discredit him by calling him a quack.
You can refer to a post from a few months ago titled ‘Ozempic-Anti Cancer?’ Find it with the search bar. There is considerable detail for you there.
Again, why do you post here? If I didn’t have this disease I’d be doing better things with my time.
So basically you can't tell me what other sources apart from glutamine and glucose. No worries.
I sent you to the information you asked for.
You won’t disclose any information about yourself and prefer to lurk on an advanced prostate cancer forum. No worries.
No you didn't tbf. You sent a link to a discussion. I wanted to see scientific proof of what you were saying. Obviously you don't have it. Like I said though, no worries.
I sent you to sources. The rest is your job. I'm not doing it for you. A simple DM will lead you to what you're looking for, which hopefully isn't 'proof' anyway. There is no proof in this business.
Nope, sorry you didn't. You gave me a search item to a discussion. Let it go man, it's fine. I understand.
There is no proof. Proof rarely exists in science, by definition. That discussion contains some of the best information you're going to get. I'm not offering proof and never did.
That's also the end of this exchange, unless you insist on the last word, which is fine. You are a visitor, not a member. It's the least I can do.
You're not even offering any kind of credible evidense to support your view. All you sent was a comment to search a conversation, which BTW still didn't offer any credible evidense to support it.Still not sure why made that claim. I'm not sure you have any reason except some opinion.
Like I said, give up man and just let it go. Move on. It's over.
Metformin and the supplement, AMPK produce results similar to fasting. Many studies on these two. The fact is, nothing works for everyone. Unfortunately, many of the men reading, replying and posting on here are examples of treatment failures and combinations of treatments that have failed.
I first read of a calorie restriction study done decades ago. The results were impressive for the first time out.
Currumpaw
Well said.
Re: ketogenic diets, metformin, and even frequent strenuous exercise - I did keto for the better part of 25 years, and though I didn't have diabetes I convinced my doctor to give me metformin to help maintain wait loss and cravings. I've been on it more than 10 years. I did heavy weight lifting and mountain biking for the last 20 years (until last year).
All of those things were daily parts of my life for decades, and yet here I am, diagnosed with Stage 4B Prostate Cancer that even triplet therapy hasn't put into complete remission after a year of treatments.
If none of those things prevented me from getting cancer, I'm very skeptical that they'll be able to cure me of it.
Put me into that "examples of treatment failures..." category, and don't be surprised when I express skepticism when someone posts about the wonder CURES of keto or certain supplements that they saw on some YouTube channel that hasn't gone through human testing or trials to prove efficacy.
Cheers
As an alternative to Metformin, I take Berberine and Garcinia Cambogia.
Are you pre diabetic? Or is for some other reason such as anti cancer?
I have been told I was prediabetic or borderline prediabetic since I was 18 years old but it never crossed the line where I would need insulin injections. As an adult, I have not really eaten desserts or sweet stuff but the older I got the more insulin resistant I became and the more I put on weight if eating carbs such as bread or pasta. I had climbed up to 230 lbs at one point but brought it down to around 165-170 lbs through doing keto. Things got out of whack due high cortisol from prednisone during my cancer treatment and at the end of my treatment in May of this year I weighted 205 lbs despite eating healthy and training regularly. Continued doing keto but I think my hormones are not yet back to what they were pre-treatment so I added Berberine to my regimen. I have been 180lbs since September but I appear to have stabilized at that weight somehow instead of going back to 165-170. Whether cutting carbs helps me with the cancer or not, it is definitely helping me when it comes to overall health.
Gallileo, Darwin, William B. Coley, Francis Peyton Rous and many others were dismissed as 'quacks' and were eventually proven right.
Seyfried doesn't claim diet etc will cure cancer, but he does say that certain diets will extend life, sometimes significantly, although he has never claimed it will cure the cancer, do your research.
We do not know all there is to know about cancer, far from it.
Seyfried is going against the establishment in proposing that cancer is a mitochondrial metabolic disease and not a genetic one, he has a considerable following so I wouldn't dismiss him as a 'crank'.
Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about.
Yep, there's a LOT of closed mind thinking going on around this site. At the end of the day, you should be open to people trying to help you - regardless if you agree or not. Instead you get people vigorously defending some opinion, regardless. Shame really. I find a lot of people claiming 'science' and not really making any attempt to reading/understanding the science. IMO, It should be obvious that Seyfried is not a quack. But, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Yep, there's also a LOT of desperate people here looking for anything that might cure them and willing to jump on board with every claim out there from the latest food or supplement as cure crowd.
Also a lot of accusations of someone being "close-minded" when they don't agree with your opinion.
Let's revisit Seyfried after he's done more peer reviewed research on human beings with solid tumor cancers like PCa.
Yep, there sure is. But there's also a lot of people out there with opinions rather than any factual reasoning.
I'm don't consider people close minded who don't agree with my opinions. Far from it. But I do expect them to be able to justify their claims when they make accusations.
I think that Seyfried would love to have funding and all the trials he could get his hands on. Lets hope he gets it. However, I think we all may be waiting a long time for any of it happens and suspect we'll all be dead before that. I personally wouldn't be waiting for it any time soon.
Anyway, what ever you believe or whatever approach you take, I hope it works out for you... and everyone else.
LOL..."opinions vs factual reasoning." Awfully arrogant of you to be the judge of that.
I linked two articles from an oncologist in my original response to this post challenging Seyfried's claims. Did you even read them?
At least we agree that most of us will be dead before Seyfried comes up with anything proven.
I'm done here. This back and forth isn't going to change anyone's mind.
Did you follow the thread? Maybe you didn't. I tried to reason out why he wasn't a quack. Nothing was given to validate the claim. So I came to the conclusion it was an opinion and not factual.How is that arrogance?
I get the impression that you would start an argument in an empty room.
🤣🤣
You're funny. I'm not close-minded. When there's verifiable proof conducted and reviewed that his theories are correct in humans, I'll be right on board.
When there is proof his ideas have an impact on Prostate Cancer, again I'll be on board. but right now most of his research is on mice with glioblastoma...that's a long way off from treating humans, especially humans with Prostate Cancer.
I also have no issue with anyone who wants to believe in the guy following his advice; but I still think he's a quack, and so do much smarter people than me.
I give you a challenge, follow his plan, and report your verifiable results that can be attributed to following plans once you have any.
I've already effectively followed the basics of his plan most of my adult life and still have metastatic PCa...does that prove ketogenic diets don't stop prostate cancer? You tell me. Neither one of us has controlled studies to prove it. Neither does Seyfried.
You can't just adhere to his plan. He uses a drug called DOM in his treatments that when used with a keto diet is used to inhibit glutomine. This uses some intermittent type treatment he calls 'pulsing'. It can be quite dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. So even if you could get access to the drug, you'd be advised to try to work with him to do it safe and correct.
So, although someome may have been doing keto for however long, cancer can still metabolize glutomine and it will switch to that.
FWIW: the cancer can metabolize glutomine (the most abundant amino acid in the body) and glucose. This is a fundamental claim on his work. He minimizes the glucose with keto and treats the glutomine with his drug using this pulse technique. This is why I asked previously if people knew of other sources cancer uses with the exception of glutamine and glucose. He claims the inhibition of these severely weaken the cancer.
Yes, that's my understanding as well. Once you're in ketosis his treatment cuts off glutomine in pulses, this reduces collateral damage to healthy cells but weakens the cancer cells sufficiently that they are killed off by much smaller amounts of less toxic anti-cancer drugs.
"He claims..."
Again, get back to me when there's repeatable and verifiable results from testing on humans with PCA, not just mice with brain cancers.
It's not DOM, it's DON...deoxynorleucine for anyone who wants to google it.
The question is more like, if you restrict the cancer from a particular source, does it grow at a different rate as the restricted source?
I probably watched this at one time or another. There are a number of people saying that this or that diet will kill cancer. I think this is not likely, cancer cell will find the energy they need no matter what diet you are on. They are highly adaptable and if their "preferred" diet is not available they find something else including healthy cells for energy.
What does make a lot of sense to me and I am finding that a lot of people agree is that intermittent fasting could help the immune system in general. Our immune systems are usually capable of eliminating rogue cells before they become tumors. When they fail we get cancer or other diseases. I probably got PC because I have a CDK 12 mutation which means that my body can not repair certain DNA breaks.
The idea of intermittent fasting is that the body can do a better job of maintenance if it is not burdened with other tasks. There is only so much blood and energy available to do all the processes in our very complex biological systems. If we are running away from a tiger most everything stops other than what is necessary to get away from the tiger or we would not have survived as a species. Same is likely true of digestion of food, fighting disease etc.
The idea of three meals a day and especially breakfast is quite new. Other than rich people no one could afford this luxury in the past. People had to hunt work etc, they did not have the "luxury" to be eating all the time especially with sedentary lifestyles.
We are killing ourselves by eathing too much crap and not getting any exercise. This works for some but it is not how we evolved as a species. Has anyone noticed the obesity epidemic?
Apparently fasting is quite effective when taken alongside chemo. The side affects are reported to be restricted a lot.
yes this is one study i remember sort of and i believe there are others with respect to other diseases. i think that TA found one with respect to PC. I am starting Pluvicto in two days and will certainly keep up with the intermittent fasting. Others have suggested more severe fasting like two weeks. Any ideas or studies on how that might effect PC treatment?
Thanks good video, alt medicine or protocols are not taken serious enough in my opinion.
One treatment or approach to hinder cancer often fails whereas two or more treatments, lifestyle changes, alternative treatments and supps of some combination can have better results.
Radiation and ADT are often combined and sometimes more than that. Synergy can be powerful compared to a one sided approach.
Currumpaw
A keto diet is not easy to maintain, especially staying in ketosis, which I’ve been trying to do for the last 4 months…it’s really hard to eat enough fat vs protein and that to me is the hard3st part of the diet. That said, I believe it’s worth it as I feel better and stronger since starting.
Is it helping my PCa? I’ll find out later this month with labs.
Here is an article saying it shows promise, so I believe it needs more study, but I’ve yet to see any study refuting it outright.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
”The ketogenic diet probably creates an unfavorable metabolic environment for cancer cells and thus can be regarded as a promising adjuvant as a patient-specific multifactorial therapy. The majority of preclinical and several clinical studies argue for the use of the ketogenic diet in combination with standard therapies based on its potential to enhance the antitumor effects of classic chemo- and radiotherapy, its overall good safety and tolerability and increase in quality of life. However, to further elucidate the mechanisms of the ketogenic diet as a therapy and evaluate its application in clinical practice, more molecular studies as well as uniformly controlled clinical trials are needed.”
I do keto also and I think it is wonderful for general health and to get rid of the health issues derived from insulin resistance which is at the root of a large chunk of what ails all countries that use lots of processed foods.
While it is possibly helpful against some cancers, I am not so certain that it helps against prostate cancer, aside of making you generally healthier of course. From what I've read or heard, prostate cancer is able to feed on just about anything you ingest/produce, be it ketones or amino acids.
I could be wrong but I don't believe ive seen any evidense that prostate cancer can feed on ketone. A healthy mitochondria CAN use it, but the mitochondria is damaged in the case of cancer and so relies on fermentation. At least that's what I read. I guess it's maybe possible the mitochondria is damaged but somehow uses it. Could be wrong though, it's not something I've really looked into.
I've just asked an AI bot whether prostate cancer cells can feed on ketones. Here is its ambiguous answer:
"The question of whether prostate cancer cells can feed on ketones is not yet fully answered by scientific research. However, some studies have suggested that ketones may have different effects on prostate cancer depending on the stage and type of the disease.
Ketones are molecules produced by the liver when the body breaks down fat for energy. This usually happens when the body does not have enough glucose (sugar) from carbohydrates to use as fuel. A ketogenic diet is a very low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet that induces ketosis, a state where the body relies mainly on ketones for energy.
Some researchers have proposed that a ketogenic diet may help treat some types of cancer, including prostate cancer, by starving the cancer cells of glucose, their preferred source of energy. Cancer cells are known to have a high demand for glucose and to use it inefficiently, producing large amounts of lactic acid as a by-product. This process, called the Warburg effect, is thought to give cancer cells a growth advantage over normal cells1.
However, not all cancer cells are dependent on glucose. Some cancer cells can adapt to use other sources of energy, such as fatty acids, amino acids, or ketones. In fact, some studies have shown that ketones may actually promote the growth and survival of certain types of prostate cancer cells, especially those that are resistant to hormone therapy or have mutations in the androgen receptor23.
For example, a study by Liu et al. found that ketones increased the expression of the androgen receptor and its target genes in prostate cancer cells, enhancing their proliferation and invasion2. Another study by Branca et al. showed that ketones activated a signaling pathway that protected prostate cancer cells from oxidative stress and apoptosis (cell death)3.
On the other hand, some studies have suggested that ketones may have anti-cancer effects in prostate cancer by modulating the immune system, reducing inflammation, or enhancing the efficacy of other therapies. For instance, a study by Klement et al. reported that a ketogenic diet increased the levels of natural killer cells and cytotoxic T cells, which are immune cells that can kill cancer cells, in mice with prostate cancer4. A clinical trial by Schwartz et al. found that a ketogenic diet combined with intermittent fasting increased the levels of serum ketone bodies and prolonged the prostate-specific antigen doubling time (PSADT), a measure of prostate cancer progression, in men with recurrent prostate cancer.
Therefore, the answer to your question may depend on the specific characteristics of your prostate cancer, such as the stage, grade, hormone sensitivity, genetic mutations, and metabolic profile. It may also depend on other factors, such as your overall health, nutritional status, and treatment plan. It is important to consult your doctor before starting a ketogenic diet or any other dietary intervention, as it may have potential benefits or risks for your prostate cancer."
Here are links it spit out:
Against ketones: mdanderson.org/cancerwise/t...
Pro ketones: eatingtofuelhealth.com/pros...
So, not clear cut....
Personally, I wouldn't be hell bent in striving to get in ketosis. It takes longer for some people than others. People worry about it but the fact you're not eating high carbs and sugars is still a good thing IMO. Others may disagree.That being said, if you water only fast for five days and do keto, it's hard not to be in ketosis. Maybe you could try a day and check your results. If no results try two days etc.
From my experience once you get to the stage where you get into ketosis easily, you can phase in and out rather easily.
I have personally known men in my PCa group who had slow growing cnacer and applied highly restrictive diets of differing kinds. They saw a psa result that was positive. PSA is not cancer. Numerous things can affect psa. The point is, treating psa is not the same as treating a tumor, AT ALL.
Many Cancer patients hope for an easy cure. There isn't one at this time
Being a dummy when it comes to CA........at least I do know one thing cancer definitely feeds on...... it's us.....(fucking little bastards.....oops one more thing I know, I know how to curse)...
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Wednesday 12/06/2023 12:05 PM EST
Do you think, he knows how to grow hair? (on my head - upper one)
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Wednesday 12/06/2023 1:19 PM EST
How to feed cancer a trojan horse= cancer loves to feed on iron , wormwood or artemisinin kills cancer here's how it works nature.com/articles/s41418-...
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