Can someone point me to the best evidence they’ve found where a carnivore diet is detrimental with PCa?
There’s a decent amount of people who have gone Vegan, but I’ve yet to see what I consider hard evidence for the reasons not to try carnivore.
Carnivore Diet and PCa: Can someone... - Advanced Prostate...
Carnivore Diet and PCa
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MrG68
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Eat a heart healthy diet... whatever that may be... Mediterranean Diets are known to be very good for prostate cancer patients...and good for the heart as well.
The "evidence" is very low level. IMO varied protein sources is safest.
Can we add a keto diet to this question as well? There's some overlap and they're both very much not vegan.
Carnivore diet is keto isn’t it? Doesn’t it put you into ketosis?
I don't think you could call carnivore keto because keto requires much more fat. Too much protein is not a great idea according to this regime. The whole thing though is to keep carbs down so that your body starts to burn ketone bodies.
Eating enough fats was hard to do. If carnivore puts you in ketosis which it does then that is what matters. Thats why we do keto is to get into ketosis but carnivore seems much easier to manage.
But fats can be pro-inflammatory, increasing IL-6 and other such markers.
They are different, but related. They can vary slightly how they are defined. But, in general, both can be ketogenic.
Keto consists heavily on fat and results in ketosis since you metabolize the fat since the glucose is reduced - hense its name.
Carnivore can also be eaten with high fat and can put you in ketosis. Its generally less that a keto diet though. Generally people do carnivore for other reasons than ketosis.
A keto diet usually will put you in a deeper state of ketosis than carnivore since protein can stop/limit the state of ketosis.
It's worth noting that fasting also affects ketosis. If you fast for days, you use your body fat and can get into ketosis that way as well. Also some fast while eating keto or carnivore.
If it's a ketogenic state you're after, a keto diet would be the easiest way to go.
Hope that helps.
Very Interesting! The idea that Fasting can induce ketosis, somewhat like the Ketogenic diet itself. So the impact of ketosis then is that it creates "ketones" vs glucose. And ketones are not fed on like glucose by cancer cells, losing their energy supply?
But my understanding is that when deprived of Glucose, cancer cells switch to Glutamine as a food source? Isn't this correct?
I believe it's a bit more conplicated. These are my personal opinions, but my understanding is:Ketosis happens with both carnivore and keto. If you follow those diets you become 'fat adapted'. This allows you to oxidize fats instead of glucose. Keto, being heavier in fats will put you into the Ketosis state much deeper.
If you eat carbs, your body will metabolize the glucose. If you eat both, it will try to metabolize both and one locks the other out. This is known as tbe Randal cycle. I think its better to be one or the other.
If you fast, you deplete your glucose and eventually your body tries to metabolize the fats. So if you're carnivore/keto you will get into Ketosis much quicker.
That being said, I personally don't believe people should make it a mission to get into deep deep Ketosis. I think its better to phase in and out.
But the reason I'd personally consider keto/carnivore, is that they have the lowest deuterium - the hydrogen isotope.
It clogs up your ATP mechanism which destroy your mitochondria.
But here's the important bit: there's certain conditions for cancer cells to divide. Growth hormone and the ratio of hydrogen/deuterium in the cell. The ratio of deuterium:hydrogen in the cell reaches a level that gives cell division the green light. You slow it down, lower the deuterium which lowers the ratio.
For glucose and plant diets, there is significantly more deuterium and growth factor.
Exercise, sweating, sunlight, deuterium depleted water are all ways to reduce your deuterium.
Others disagree with what I've said here, but never shown any reason why. Search pubmed for deuterium.
Here is my favorite and yours, Alicia Morgan, interviewing Stacy Loeb on her long term large cohort study on the impacts of diet on Pre and Post PCa diagnosis.
urotoday.com/video-lectures...
With key takeaway around plant based diet being:
"... it seems like it can make a small benefit in terms of some of these important quality of life outcomes after treatment".
This is not enough to make me give up the occasional steak or burger as long as I eat a varied and healthy diet overall.
Thanks for posting that. Just so you know, this info is based on surveys.
I don't think I'll give up the steaks just yet 😄
You're right, shouldn't call it a study.
Don't get between me and my steak if you value your fingers 😎
In all seriousness though my wife is Chilean and we naturally tend toward the med. diet.
Even if they're loaded with hormones, HCAs, and saturated fats that promote cancer-aggravating inflammation?
Yeah, don't eat animal products unless they're grass fed.
It is not "evidence" but I believe fact. Domestic animals in the US are fed growth hormones to make them grow bigger, fatter and faster. Those hormones end up on the American table. Those hormones can not be good for prostate cancer whicj which is a hormone fed cancer.
If you wish to eat meat, buy non hormone grass fed beef. The same for all domestic meats.
Yup, I hear what you're saying with the hormones.
Correct and I would also say the meats they use in these so called studies is not grass fed
The large studies we have indicate more risk with meat/diary and less risk with plant diets. TIFWIW....
degruyter.com/document/doi/...
In the United States, the lifetime risk of prostate cancer (PCa) is 11.6%,1 which has the highest incidence and second highest mortality rate of all cancers in men.2 Previous studies3-6 have shown that increased consumption of animal products is associated with increased PCa risk. One 2001 review3 found that 16 of 22 studies showed a positive correlation between meat intake and PCa risk. Eight studies in this review assessed red meat intake separately, and all but 1 showed a correlation with increased risk of PCa. Other studies4-6 have shown a correlation between dairy consumption and increased PCa risk.
These associations are likely related to a multitude of factors. With regard to meat, the formation of heterocyclic amines during high-temperature cooking, hormonal effects,7 other nutrient components,3,8 and the relatively lower levels of anticarcinogenic compounds found in meats compared with plants are all likely implicated. Many of these factors may also be implicated in dairy products. For instance, animal protein and dairy intake is associated with elevated insulinlike growth factor 1, which is associated with elevated PCa risk.9-16 Additionally, dairy has implications distinct from other animal products. Prostate cancer cellular proliferation and invasiveness is inhibited by calcitriol,17 but increased calcium intake suppresses the formation of calcitriol. Increased calcium intake and low levels of vitamin D are associated with increased PCa risk.18 Dairy products are the primary source of calcium in Western countries.19 In countries in which the intake of dairy products is high, PCa rates are high.20 In Asian countries, in which intake of dairy products is low, PCa rates are low.21
A growing body of evidence suggests there may be an association between plant-based diets and decreased PCa risk. The decreasing mortality rates in the United States for several common cancers, including PCa, coincides with decreased meat and dairy intake and increased plant-based food consumption.22 The widespread implementation of cancer-screening initiatives such as prostate-specific antigen testing possibly contributes to this decrease in mortality but is unlikely to be the sole explanation for the trend. A large epidemiologic study23 in 1981 estimated that 35% of all cancer could be attributed to dietary causes, and a 2015 review24 of this landmark report found its estimates to be generally true in the 21st century. One randomized clinical trial25 studied men with known low-grade PCa who declined standard therapy. The trial found that after being exposed to a year of lifestyle interventions consisting of a vegan diet, exercise, and stress management techniques, the prostate-specific antigen of men in the experimental group decreased, whereas it increased in the control group. Studies reviewed by Kristal and Lampe26 showed an association between increased consumption of certain vegetables and decreased PCa risk. It is because of these correlations that we sought to review the current literature for the association of dietary patterns and PCa risk.
Thanks for posting that.
Not that I'm discounting it, I think it's worth highlighting just so people are aware:
It looks like the underlying studies used to create this outcome are actually based on questionaires. I was hoping to get a higher level of evidense. Also, they aren't just PCa, there's others included in there.
Historically, the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of plant-based diets as being more appropriate for cancer.
Related topic for those who care about future generations: wri.org/insights/6-pressing...
there is nothng like a good stake, a glass of wine and an ice cream
Easy as eating chocolate chip ice cream (two scoops). Don't eat meat on days that we're having climate change.
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Thursday 11/16/2023 11:14 PM EST
A 2009 study found that the consumption of red and processed meats led to an increase in the development of prostate cancer. In addition to this, red meat eaters had a 30% higher risk of developing advanced prostate cancer.
Another study published in the American Journal of Epidemiology reveals that men who eat a lot of red meat are 12 percent more likely to develop prostate cancer. And 33 percent of these men are likely to develop an advanced and aggressive stage.
bensnaturalhealth.com/blog/...
That article hasn't really any evidence. There are links to some referenes, but they don't work for me. Thanks for trying though.
It doesn't take any scientific evidence to know the effects. You can simply stare at a slice of bacon and then a spinach salad and come to the only logical conclusion. The spinach salad tastes much better if you add the bacon to it.
I post it as I got it, I cannot verify it right now but there is a link to the study:
I think we are not understanding carnivore diet. Carnivore diet is 0 carbohydrates and is stricty meat dairy fish. Organ meats are crucial to getting your most important nutrients.
All of this means is you are in ketosis.
Being in ketosis is amazing. I am presently out of ketosis and have been for a year now and i used a ketogenic diet with meats and vegies to keep carb intake to below 60 grams/day.
Carnivore is 0 carbs. I am looking into doing this also. my wife wife has been in ketosis for 3 years now and may try this also.
Right now we are in the learning phase
For the past three years, in an effort to beat a rising PSA, I switched away from meat (cut intake by 1/2- 3/4) and focused more on Beans (Pinto/Black) as a replacement and combined them with tons of rice-Brown Rice, White, Wild Rice.
Now, I'm just learning about the Carnivore Diet and the Keto-Diet and wish I had known about them before embarking on the Bean and Rice Diet. Here's why: The can of beans on average has about 70 g of Carbs, my pack of Brown Rice 77g of Carbs, the other rice somewhat less, and I would eat slices of wheat bread with this meal that had 23g of Carbs per slice. Note: At the time didn't realize any of this was important.
Over this period of time my PSA went up from 10 to 15 according to my urologist, and not down as I had expected from reducing meat intake. And this was even while I was heavy on raw vegetable salads too.
Is it a good chance here that I was giving potential cancer cells a "glucose party" then?
I think you’re cancer was going to grow no matter what diet you’re on if that is all you’re doing. If you are combining it with ADT and other medical therapies then diet might help. To me it is most important right now to eat quality foods and keep active.
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