I've been told diet doesn't make a lot of difference for advanced metastatic PC--"we focus on keeping down testosterone." Study like this makes me think maybe there are some other ways we can also help ourselves.
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CocoTheAlphaCat
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Finally ! Someone agrees with me . I’ve been on the plant based whole food diet for 8 yrs now . That was after a lifetime of the indulgent sad diet . Not eating sugar or processed foods is key . Im convinced that this made the difference and is one major reason that I’ve had no signs of pc for over seven years . It was a drastic change to take on.. at just 53 I felt it was worth a shot . Most men over 60 won’t want t change their beloved diets of bad foods . It’s ingrained .. Good luck !
One has to be very careful about drawing conclusions like you are doing from a retrospective study. Such a study can only show associations, not causation. A moment of reflection will expose the difference: Q- Who is more likely to eat a plant-based diet? A-People who lead a healthier lifestyle and wealthier people. These are also the people more likely to see doctors and get diagnosed earlier. So the association may have nothing to do with the food they ate. (In research parlance, "selection bias" often occurs when there are "unmeasured confounders" like this )
To overcome this sort of error, a randomized clinical trial was undertaken to see if eating more vegetables in one's diet, could slow progression of prostate cancer. They found eating more vegetables had no effect. Here are the results of the trial:
Although your critique is valid, it is not clear that the interventions were the same. In the JAMA study, patients were encouraged to just add a minimum of plant-based foods to their diet. Did they just add these to their former "bad" diet? In the intervention described in WaPo, patients were encouraged to embrace a "plant-based" diet. Does this mean that the majority embraced a vegan or vegetarian diet, eschewing the "bad" foods in their former diet? For what it's worth, I wouldn't expect just adding a few more servings of plant sourced foods to the diet to make any difference. But changing the diet to one that virtually eliminates simple sugars, excess fats and even too much animal protein may have an impact. Certainly, neither of these studies adequately answers the question.
I also see the study referenced by Mr. Tall was focused on early-stage PC patients, whom I presume would be most likely to show noticeable benefits. Sigh. There are many paths to enlightenment; also little crumbs of potentially helpful info along each path. Part of why we're all here😺 Thanks, all.
Your critique would have been valid if true. The MEAL RCT was a large, randomized trial, so both groups were about equal in their dietary intake at baseline. In fact, what happened is that the intervention group significantly increased their intake of vegetables, while slightly decreasing their animal protein intake. It made no difference, although the authors believed and hoped it would.
Everyone means something different by a "plant-based diet." And die-hards always counter with "if they just ate XYZ instead." Yet this is by far the best data we have - it is the only Level 1 evidence we have, and we all have to acknowledge that.
OTOH, there is no evidence of even Level 2 that a diet that "eliminates simple sugars, excess fats and even too much animal protein may have an impact." It is all just from observational studies (sometimes among people who do not even have prostate cancer) that suffer from similar selection bias, and lab studies,all of which are useless for patient decision-making.
There are many reasons to eat healthier, it just turns out that there is no evidence that prostate cancer is one of them.
My view on this is as follows: randomized studies of effects of lifestyle changes are very hard to do. For medication/treatment your observation window is short (3-5 years, e.g. does SBRT work or not?). With lifestyle changes your observation window has to be really long (>= 20 years). This makes it very challenging. I am not saying whether it has an effect or not. I am just saying that longterm studies are quite challenging.
My husband has been eating relatively healthy diet all his life but did eat a lot of organic free range eggs two years before diagnosis and chicken. After diagnosis, he has been on a whole food plant based diet (largely home cooked) with low fat and no processed food or sugars. It has, sadly, not made a huge difference to his cancer progression. Having said that, all his blood markers other than PSA, LDH and recently ALP are good. He has had a healthy weight, decent BP, and his tolerance of treatments has been good too. Within a month of starting to eat like that his aches and pains went away (that was before the urologist put him on ADT). He was wheeled in for his first CT scan in July 2020 as he could not walk. He got well enough to start to do 100 press ups and long walks etc. Some of the subsequent support would have, of course, come from the ADT starting to shrink the lesions. It is another fact that the treatments have not worked for long in his case and in the case of chemo not worked at all. The diet is not helping now with the pain when the cancer is in multiple places in the skeleton. We will never know if it is slowing things down a bit. He does not regret his choice of diet. It is possible that there are outliers like him that we come across who are healthy people with a decent lifestyle and just get aggressive varieties of cancer.
Right. To me, a mostly plant based diet is it’s own reward. Since I was diagnosed with PC, I’ve gone to a mostly plant based diet with some chicken and fish. I’ve lost 35 lbs. My blood sugar, blood pressure and cholesterol have fallen dramatically, which is also good for my heart. I feel so much better, I can’t emphasize it enough. I feel better and have more stamina now than before I was diagnosed 5 years ago. Will my diet help me live longer? I would be surprised if it did not, and meanwhile, it’s certainly improved my QOL.
Murph256 wrote -- " ... To me, a mostly plant based diet is its own reward.... "
Pro/Elite athletes and Vegans die from PCa. Agreeing with Murph256 (r.e.-diet) PLUS adding exercise and I still got PCa, Was cool when I had my Pre-Op for the bilateral Orchiectomy my HR (Heart Rate) on the ECG machine was 32bpm.
Will be 8 years in April for diagnosis, then castration, then Cryo for my GL10 and had eaten well before AND after. Great dinner last night of Sockeye Salmon + broccoli + spinach + brussels sprouts + onions + garlic + peas + tomato paste cooked in an Organic Red wine/water mix with lots of CURRY powder then ladled over Quinoa. Even with ZERO Testosterone this 72.5yo geezer went out at 12:51AM this morning for a 25.53 mile bicycle ride after a bite of Junior's N.Y. Style Cheesecake and sliced banana with almond butter and curry powder on the slices washed down with coffee.
To me *QoL* means every day normal living being the best it can, doing the best I can and not waiting for a special trip or having a special meal or a meet-up with family or old friends.
No theories and never have given it ANY THOUGHT. Since my 50th birthday back in 2000, I was expecting to be told that I had cancer and so it was not a shock and simply got on with life and living.
I say if it rings your bell, go for it!!! There's nothing to lose! And being healthy has it's merits, regardless if that means being as healthy as possible while in contrast, having cancer isn't so healthy at all. Like everything else regarding this disease, a constant conundrum...
It's difficult to dismiss the evidence of those, even the one or two, that benefit from something, and it's as difficult to accept when replication is hard to find in a scientific setting. But science itself isn't the end all... There's a multitude of unexplainable events little understood by science. And we are at a severe disadvantage vs our timeline in nature where our biodiversity has had millennia to become what it is today, and for this, PCa, we have been fighting it for a bunch of decades! And so we do some controlled experiment for a few years and think we have the answer. Or in contrast, we've been eating a certain way for decades and think changing now for a few months reverses course.
We dismiss completely the power of Will, and the Mind also, and forget how long this has had to develop. The subconscious effort our mind plays in fight or flight events, even those drawn out over years, how powerful the brain is in controlling bodily function. How many recorded episodes of Will Power overcoming insurmountable obstacles...? The Power of Attraction would be dismissed as gobblygoop because it can't be replicated in a lab by enough study subjects to validate it's effect, but there are quite of few people, very successful mind you, that would attest to it's results, for them!
Ultimately, we all walk our path, alone... We have and make choices which only affect ourselves and we are the only ones who suffer from those choices. But because it works for one, doesn't mean it won't work for someone else, and vice/versa... Again, that crazy conundrum!
Some day, maybe... I might try a complete veggie diet, but I'm hard cast in my habits. I too thought I ate healthy even before diagnosis. Limited red meat, plenty of veggies, whole grains, little to no processed foods, etc., etc. But I still wound up on this rollercoaster.
I was down at Ground Zero for a total of 18 months, with 11 actually in the pit... And there's nobody that can say with definite conviction that this caused or exacerbated my condition. Scientifically, it would be impossible to replicate or prove, but... We have mounting evidence by all those who were there, and the amount of people especially today, now 20 years later, being awarded the grand prizes of ridiculous health issues... Association or Causation my backside! There's no doubt in my book, as my PCa is behaving in an extremely rare manifestation, with characteristics that are non-existent when considering the whole (PCa population). Do we dismiss this then too, because hey, you know, we can't replicate it in a scientific setting? No, of course not... I'm one or three of cases like mine ever recorded, so let's just move on because I don't exist, lol.
But why is that ok, to accept me, but dismiss the one or two, who have in contrast benefitted from something? We can accept evidence of my disease as fact, because we see it, watch it and know, what's it's doing and has done. But dismiss someone who does the same, but outside the established medical community and scientific establishment. Ehhhhhh... It's a problem. It is REAL regardless of our acceptance.
Just voicing my thoughts... Thanks for reading, you may carry on
Yes, we are very different. And our daily intake of food, beverages, air is very different...day by day.Too much variables. We are trying to get in order a very small percentage of everything that we are going through as you had noticed.
Our social status, relationships...everything counts.
I guess that there are two main reasons for me to get disease:
1. sedentary way of life although BMI was always good.
2. 2013. was year with excessive amount of stress. (two years before DX).
I think eating a healthy diet is good for overall cardiovascular health and fitness which in turn may give you an edge in dealing with ongoing forms of cancer treatment, but I’m doubtful it really does much to the cancer itself. Recently I asked Dr. Sartor during a visit if there’s any foods I should avoid, he said no “it doesn’t make a difference to the cancer “.
I agree with that over the short to medium term, especially for metastatic patient's. However, I haven't ruled out the possibility that, along with SOC treatments, over time I may gain some advantage, perhaps from delay if nothing else. We'll see!
My view: Risk factors and protective effects from diet are laid down within the first 21 or so years of life. Maybe 25 years. Same for sun radiation exposure and other natural environmental impacts. After that time continued natural based diet, meaning mostly plants and unprocessed foods, may maintain the protective effect. Very little is accomplished by changing diet at some later point in life other than for some cardiac and kidney conditions, plus a few others. Cancer not one of those.
Eating healthy is its own reward. Feeling better, taking control, sense of responsibility, perhaps lowered cholesterol, weight control are worthy goals. Accept those and expect no other. Limit expectations.
Bravo Magnus! My Nat doc tells me that all animal proteins have absolutely no benifit against cancer . While all plant foods contain some c fighting properties . That is the naturalpathic point of view. I ate mostly a high protein diet with few veggies prior to c . Digesting protein, Is our bodies tuffest job . Don’t forget about colon cancer from a meat diet too . We won’t be getting that ! Take care ! ✌️
lots of things are well known, but ....... ? Why aren't GPS advising vegetarianismto all patients.....they don't care about their patients' health. I'd love to see as tudy proving that excluding meat(all types, fish included?) decreases my risk of common cancers by 50%??? or evn 30%? 10% wouldn't impress me. I have eaten tons of broccoli and other veggies, but also meat...not 1 lb steaks , maybe 6-8 oz, once a day. Main meat has been chicken Still Gleason 4+5. I would have avoided this if vegetarian????
western docs don’t give a hoot for diet . I eat some fish now . And even a bit of chicken .. I’m not saying vegan is a cure for c but it can help.. of course anyone acting meat doesn’t want to hear it ! Good luck
is chicken considered meat? fish? both same molecular proteins I'm guessing, but too lazy to research.......maybe I will? or is the fats? or just the factory farm grown.....beef, pork, or chicken.
Numerous times I have read of Doc's concerns about older folks lack of protein consumption? BTW, majority of Docs I have mett apparently watch their diets in some way.......usually trim by American standards, so I probably disagree that "they" don't give a hoot...at least for themselves. While I certainly have plenty of gripes about our "healthcare" system, I think it is the "system" more than individual Docs that is the problem..the majority are now working within a sytem that has them seeing 2-3 patients perhour, and that greatly limits their "care" time...IMHO. Pus total patient load on aannual basis....ie how many different patients in a year?
Another observational study that indicates a generally longer more healthy life is the Blue Zones studies which indicate pretty much the same thing as discussed here - exercise and a diet of whole (recognizable, minimally processed) foods centered on plant-based options with occasional meat, dairy, sugar, eggs, and fish.
One additional factor, at least in most of our cultures is that the food we eat in large part comes from profit-based corporate entities that utilize fertilizers, pest controls and other genetic and/or hormonal processes that enable large scale production and transportation of foods and in a great part all these foods, animal or plant, are fed with water that potentially contains the runoffs from all sorts of industry as well as the effluents from sewage. A good book (that converted me to 7 stage RO water filter) about the water we drink is "Troubled Water" by Seth Siegel.
You know what has struck me as the largest unscientific study in the world?…China. There is a stark increase in the incidence of PC (95.2% increase) from 1990 to 2019. In 1990, China was a developing country, and I assume the average consumption of calories and animal protein was very low. As China has become wealthy, I assume the average consumption of calories and animal proteins has increased substantially. And during that time, the incidence of PC increase from 8.9 per 100k in 1990 to 17.3 per 100k in 2019, a 95.2% increase. China is still far below the world average which was 34.1 per 100k in 1990, and 38.6 per 100k in 2019. But my point is, as the average Chinese diet “improved”, the rate of PC almost doubled. I’m sure other factors could be involved, such as improved diagnostics. Draw your own conclusions.
I think that the worst psychological effect of PCa is that it takes away a sense of control over one's own body. I think patients, and their doctors who are very empathetic, are desperate for ways to restore that sense of control that is important to our well-being. We all want to be able to find something we can do, and diet is the easiest, most harmless thing we can do.
Increasing plant consumption has benefits that extend well beyond cancer, and every doctor should encourage it. Cardiovascular disease is 20x the killer of elderly men vs prostate cancer. There is no doubt that a healthier man is less likely to succumb to his cancer than one who has a poor status.
But given the lack of evidence, I find the almost manic drive that some people have about diet to be scary. It reflects anxiety. Eat healthy, sure, but also don't deny yourself the pleasures that life has to offer. And our favorite foods are certainly one of those pleasures.
Thanks. It's more that the major organizations put these recommendations in their literature and on their websites. I can't honestly say that the individual doctors within those organizations actually make those recommendations to patients, or follow the advice themselves--a strange contradiction.
In fact, PCF was making all kinds of unsubstantiated claims on their website. I brought this to the attention of their current CEO (Charles Ryan), who has curtailed it somewhat. I think the problem is the PR folks who run the websites. They try to write attention-grabbing articles, and play fast-and-loose with the science.
Yep headlines sell or bring in the reader and there are the writers who's jobs depend on coming up with another headline/story before the publishing deadline.
We call it click bait now and its much the same as "read all about it" to sell newspapers going way back in time.
Kids are funny . I remember being 7 yrs old and TV dinners came out .mom stopped cooking , when they made hungry man i was elated ! Salisbury steak was the fave . 😂✌️
I infrequently am aware of my imminent death. No diet change will change that. I find posts like these depressing. Because one has had and has a chance at long term remission has the ability to ponder at length the silliness of diet "studies" and anecdotal experience I'm jealous and depressed.
Gentlemen, Gentlemen!! Amazing the twists a thread responding to an innocent little question about a diet study can take. Guys, we're all (still) here--enjoy the weekend.
amen.......veggie on if that makes you feel better and more optimistic and happy!! BTW, PBS once had a program about a group of lifetime Adventists who had beenvegetarians for a good part of their lives.......something like 7 or so more years of life than general public. Is that a dispositive study...confounders? The bad news.... eventually they all still expired...and missed out on the pleasures that others with different habits enjoyed. Depends on your priorities???
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