Just a heads up. There is a bill in the senate, S.4090, titled the Dietary supplements listing act of 2022. The draft legislation that would require premarket approval for dietary supplements. That would include vitamins, and other alternative supplements you and I take to keep our cancer at bay. This bill if passed would require all FOOD supplements to go through the same tests as DRUGS. The outcome is then, no supplement company can afford the costs to do this and would go out of business. The pharmaceutical industry would then take over the supplements industry. They have been trying to do this for decades. Contact your senators and tell them not to pass this act.
The Dietary Supplement Listing Act of... - Advanced Prostate...
The Dietary Supplement Listing Act of 2022
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Magnus1964
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Thanks for the heads up Magnus!!
I wholeheartedly approve of the bill! That is ridiculous to suppose the pharmaceutical industry would be interested, when the supplement industry is a multibillion dollar industry. They contribute millions to Congressional campaigns and will undoubtedly block the legislation.
Supplements ARE drugs! It would be a benefit to patients if they are tested for safety, efficacy, drug interactions, and be required to certify what exactly is in the bottle
I disagree, "supplements" are just that, supplemental ingredients to "supplement" those nutrients the body is not getting from "food" intake.
Over the last few decades the pharmaceutical industry has been buying up those supplement companies, i.e., Nestlé Health Science has acquired Garden of Life, Vital Proteins, Nuun, Pure Encapsulations, Wobenzym, Douglas Laboratories, Persona Nutrition, Genestra, Orthica, Minami, AOV, Klean Athlete and Bountiful.
Bountiful, in turn, owns brands like Solgar, Osteo Bi-Flex, Puritan’s Pride, Ester-C and Sundown, all of which are now under Nestlé’s control. For a sample of the concentration of influence of big pharma on the supplement market there is a graph of who owns who at the bottom of this post.
This legislation would allow the pharmaceutical industry to totally control the market since they virtually control the FDA. No supplement could be sold without their approval.
Ours is a highly unfettered capitalistic society. Any new promising "supplement" for a medical condition (read cancer) would have to be prescribed by a doctor and costs would skyrocket or not put on the market at all because it would cut into industry profits.
graph
The biggest supplement manufacturers are BellRing Brands and Herbalife. Nestle is not a pharmaceutical company. I don't understand your point. Why would you object to having these multibillion dollar companies pay to assess the products they sell, just as pharmaceutical mfrs now do?
Supplements are NOT simply nutrients to make up for poor nutrition. They are super-concentrated natural products that patients use as drugs, because they are promoted as drugs to fix all manner of ailments.
This bill will at the very least increase the cost of all supplements. If supplements must meet the government standard, that will cost the industry. Those costs will show up on the shelves.
BTW, Nestle' has a Health Science division. They are the subsidiary that bought up supplement companies.
Nestle makes supplements and can afford to test them - why would you object to that? No doubt that those large manufacturers will try to jack up prices to maintain their outsize profits. I believe that all drug prices should be regulated. Unfortunately, that bill seems to be stalled.
"I believe that all drug prices should be regulated. Unfortunately, that bill seems to be stalled" ....and will never see the light of day.
Nestle, I like their chocolate 😋
I used to trust big Pharma and the FDA. No more. Watch Dopesick a true story on Purdue pharmacy and how the FDA allowed them to kill hundreds of thousands of people by allowing them to promote OxyContin as safe and non addictive. There were no studies to prove that yet they allowed them to say “non addictive” right on the bottle. When after years the US attorney went after Purdue, they asked the FDA who was the dr who approved that label. They wanted to interview him. But they could not. He was by then working for Purdue pharma. This type of incestuous relationship is common. Believe it or not both Trump and Biden tried to rein in drug prices but congress would not go along. They get way too much money from pharma. I agree we have no way to know the safety or efficacy of supplements. Unfortunately I do not trust the FDA to make that determination.
Schwah
Regulated industries over time wind up controlling the regulators; they know each other. The revolving door alone corrupts the system. Scientists can be bought by industries. Not every scientist or doctor, but enough.
How big is the problem? Remember the media report only the news. If it is a common problem, it isn't news.
The media reports what the ruling corporations tell them to report. Will your national report some injurious to the drug industry if they are the sponsors.
Independent media is necessary to the functioning of any democracy. See what happens in Russia or Hungary when the media becomes arms of the government. Fortunately, that has not happened in the US. There are too many media sources for a conspiracy like you imagine to take effect here.
There are only 6 media giants in the US. They control all that you see (or don't see). And they are not going to give anything but the corporate news.
chart
I get my news from a wide variety of reliable sources, including Reuters, BBC, NPR, NYT, Washington Post, CNN, WSJ, the Atlantic, Foreign Affairs and about 5 different substacks. When I don't respond here, I teach classes in current events, so my sources have to be good and in agreement. Conspiracy is impossible.
You may as well have written that all my information comes from one side, and it has to be in agreement or I do not pay attention to it. Dr Birx, Dr Fauci, Moderna et al have now come forward and confessed that the so called vaccines did not stop infection, or prevent the spread. In fact, the so called vaccines caused those who took the shot to be more likely to get sick with the Covid, and be more likely to have multiple infectious events and have worse outcomes. People of good health under the age of 60 get no benefit from the shots, and children in particular are harmed more by the shots, than by the Covid. It is not a conspiracy, it is just a criminal conspiracy to make huge profits and kill people. That is all.
Vaccines prevented hospitalizations and deaths. Please go peddle your conspiracy theories elsewhere. People who believe in science have no use for them.
No doubt there have been abuses. So does your inductive reasoning (going from one case of abuse to all of it is corrupt) keep you from using Lupron, docetaxel, etc.? Does it follow from your reasoning that only supplement companies should continue to regulate themselves? Isn't that much worse?
Maybe a better solution would be laws that (1) raise the compensation of gov't workers and (2) a law preventing FDA employees from working for the industries they regulate for, say, 2 years?
Yes, I use drugs approved by the FDA and I still believe in phase 3 double blind studies. I am just disgusted that big pharma is able to wield so much power in the FDA and Congress. Both of your solutions would be welcome news. However, I doubt that big pharma will allow Congress to pass such legislation.
Schwah
You can throw your arms up in the air and say you can't have any effect, or you can start by writing to your Congressman. As I write this, it seems to me that that applies to cancer too. You can just give in, or you can do what you can to make it better. The choice is yours.
Big pharma will benefit with this bill, we need to fight to stop it.
BTW- A similar situation arose with Congressmen becoming congressional lobbyists. Congress passed a law requiring a 2-year break. Such laws can and do get passed, but not if you give up before you start.
theatlantic.com/politics/ar...
Ok. I’ll try and remain hopeful. While their at it maybe a law saying no stock buying by Congressmen (or their spouses) of companies being directly impacted by ongoing legislation.
Schwah
in reply to Schwah
Exactly schwah, questions regarding this very thing for Nancy Pelosi and her husband.
Two years isn't long enough. Make it 10.
As long as they're paid enough. But gov't workers tend to be underpaid relative to private industry. We have to provide a disincentive to move to the private sector. Think of it as if you were in their shoes. Let's say you worked for 5 years for the FDA and became an expert in the drug approval process. You become very valuable then to a drug manufacturer who wants your help in guiding them through all the rules and regulations involved in getting a new drug approved. They will try to hire you with a bigger salary. Why wouldn't you take their offer?
Yes, that's why laws are needed to prevent it. They can work in another industry. Otherwise we'll never solve the problem. A similar thing happens in the defense industry and the Pentagon.
💯
Those fixes are not realistic. They would never get passed by the legislature. They to are in the pockets of the drug industry.
Yet fixes have and do happen.
Good try! But the suspicious/paranoid (?) nature of many of the responses are rather surprising (perhaps I'm just being naive or stupid). It's like throwing red meat out there when we get away from dx and treatment issues. Just saying. For whatever it's worth, I enjoy reading your posts and am glad you continue to participate.
Ed
The pharma industry OWNS the Media, and the government in toto. Supplements are safe and effective, or at worst cause no harm
Your worldwide conspiracy theories may be dangerous for your health. Also, your non-evidence-based assertions about supplements. They do harm, especially in persons with your attitude:
prostatecancer.news/2018/07...
Ad hominem Allen? Not like you. If I choose to take supplements (food) it is my choice. I do not need the government to tell me what to take and make it more costly for me to purchase it.
No ad hominem. You use the government to tell you all the other drugs you take. Why except just those?
You don't think that the pharmaceutical industry contributes millions to campaigns and even in other ways to ingratiate themselves with those who control legislation? The pharmaceutical industry is a much bigger player than supplement companies.
I worked in pharma for 14 years. I know the ins and outs of the business.
These Senators Received The Biggest Checks From …
forbes.com/sites/michelatin......
An excerpt:
"Executives from seven of the country’s biggest pharmaceutical companies are expected to face tough questions from members of the Senate Finance Committee Tuesday about drug prices, which have raised the ire of President Trump and the specter of Congressional restrictions. The pharma chiefs will also be facing a familiar crowd: Members of the Senate Finance Committee have received hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations from the same firms’ political action committees, and in some cases, the executives personally.
According to a Forbes review of Federal Election Commission filings from 2009 through the end of 2018, PACs of AbbVie , AstraZeneca , Bristol-Myers Squibb , Johnson & Johnson , Merck, Pfizer and Sanofi the seven companies set to appear before the Senate Finance Committee—have contributed some $1.6 million to the campaign committees of 27 out of 28 current members of the Finance Committee. (Forbes looked at donations made over the last decade to encompass at least one election cycle per senator.)"
That is over $59.000 per politician! That's funny! Yep! "Gonna get to the bottom of it"!
There are other ways to ingratiate a company with those at the upper levels of our society.
Sacklers Behind Purdue Pharma Stop Donation as …
observer.com/2019/03/sackle......
Getting in good with the local community?
Once it was common practice for the big companies in the southern part of the US to build a pool for the community's children or maybe buy a fire truck?
I worked for a specialty that had sites so large that some of those sites produced their own electricity.
Currumpaw
And the supplement industry:
"In the U.S. today, supplements are a multi-billion-dollar industry. By and large, the supplement industry has managed to go unchecked by regulatory bodies such as the FDA. Unlike pharmaceuticals, which must meet high standards for safety and efficacy, supplements need only meet a few requirements. Under the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 (DSHEA), supplements such as dietary supplements, were placed in the same category as food, which allowed supplement manufacturers to play by a very different set of rules.
One of the biggest differences is the way in which supplements are approached by the FDA. While pharmaceuticals are considered unsafe until proven safe, supplements are considered safe until proven otherwise. The DSHEA says that dietary supplements cannot contain anything that may have "a significant or unreasonable risk of illness or injury" when the supplement is used as directed on the label, or with normal use if there are no directions on the label. In addition, the FDA demands that an individual supplement must contain exactly what the label says it does.
No clinical trials are required -- the FDA can step in and stop the production of a supplement but only after the drug has caused harm -- the complete opposite philosophy from the way standard drugs are regulated.
However, supplements are marketed vigorously and many Americans take them every day. A recent publication in the Annals of Internal Medicine showed that most if not all supplements intended to improve heart health and CV mortality were ineffective. In the meta-analysis, nearly 1 million patients who were taking various supplements were evaluated and there was no real evidence of improved outcomes. In fact, some supplements, such as a combination of calcium and vitamin D for example, seemed to increase the rate of stroke in some subjects.
How did this happen? Why does it continue? What can we do?
The simple answer as to why it happened -- MONEY.
Former Senator Orrin Hatch from Utah, was the author of the DSHEA law in 1994 and profited greatly for it. His family is invested in supplement companies, including Herbalife, among others. Between 1989 and 1994, Herbalife International gave Hatch $49,250; MetaboLife, $31,500; and Rexall Sundown, Nu Skin International, and Starlight International a total of $88,550. In addition, according to his financial disclosures for 2003, Hatch owned 35,621 shares of Pharmics, a Utah-based nutritional supplement company. In the early 1990s, Hatch's son Scott began working for lobbying groups representing vitamin and supplement makers. Kevin McGuiness, Hatch's former chief of staff, was also a lobbyist for the industry.
The supplement industry has thrived in the state of Utah, and thanks to Senator Hatch, the industry has grown unchecked -- all while patients continue to be misled and possibly harmed. In fact, the corridor of 1-15 in Utah is known as the silicon valley of the supplement industry.
The answer to what can we do is far more complex. It all starts with physicians taking a stand and responding to the misinformation found on supplements in the media and on the internet. Social media leaders such as Dr. Eric Topol and Dr. Jen Gunter have both publicly called out the supplement industry for misleading patients. More must be done. We must work with lawmakers to stiffen FDA regulations of the supplement industry and we must walk back what many folks consider to be Senator Hatch's deadliest law -- the 1994 DSHEA act."
medpagetoday.com/opinion/ca...
BTW- I worked on a clinical trial of a supplement. The results seemed too good to be true. Then the client admitted they were adulterating the supplement with a drug approved for the purpose and not putting it on the label. The drug was cheap from China, and they figured that word-of-mouth would spread about how good it was, helped by my study. They would easily make up for the increased cost in extra volume. Or they would stop adding it when they had a regular customer base. I pulled out of the study, and the owners decided to take the money and run before anyone found out.
FDA-approved Drugs Kill more than 100,000 yearly
Estimated Reading Time: 5 mins
Investigator Jon Rappoport believes the FDA should be charged with murder,
because FDA-approved drugs kill more than 100,000 people yearly. In ten years, that’s a million people. That’s a lot of death linked with an entity we entrust with our lives, an agency now charged with approving Covid vaccines that some politicians are attempting to mandate on everyone.
dmlawfirm.com/fda-approved-...
Risky Drugs: Why The FDA Cannot Be Trusted
ethics.harvard.edu/blog/ris...
Jul 17, 2013 · One in every five drugs approved ends up causing serious harm, 1 while one in ten provide substantial benefit compared to existing, established drugs. This is the opposite of what
An excerpt:
"The bar for “safe” is equally low, and over the past 30 years, approved drugs have caused an epidemic of harmful side effects, even when properly prescribed. Every week, about 53,000 excess hospitalizations and about 2400 excess deaths occur in the United States among people taking properly prescribed drugs to be healthier. One in every five drugs approved ends up causing serious harm,1 while one in ten provide substantial benefit compared to existing, established drugs. This is the opposite of what people want or expect from the FDA.
Prescription drugs are the 4th leading cause of death."
Your anecdote about a cheap drug from China--I can't talk about what I have seen. I signed a NDA.
My BTW--look at those numbers in the article by Donald Light who certainly "shines the light upon this subject". I guess that is why he is associated with Harvard.
Good night. Sleep tight!
Currumpaw
If you want to refuse all FDA-approved drugs, you are just throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The solution is to fix the parts that are broken, not to chuck the entire institution of drug approval.
Same with supplements my friend. I like your argument-- especially since it works for supps and vitamins too!
My best to you,
Sweet dreams!
Currumpaw
Exactly! The supplement industry needs oversight to fix it. I'm glad we agree.
Do you have enough information to make a reasonable choice? First of all, what is actually in the bottle? Is it pure? Is it safe? Does it do what you think it does? Does it effect other drugs you are taking? Does it affect tests, like PSA? Is it possible that an expert trained for years in pharmacology may know something you don't know?
None of us has the resources to answer any of those questions for himself. But when we all pitch in a small amount, we collectively have the resources. We call that collective resource "government." You ARE the government- that's what a republic is.
Our "government" has become tainted with the stain of corporate greed. The NIH uses our tax dollars to fund research on all kinds of substances. The pharmaceutical industry cherry picks those research studies to determine which have the potential to produce marketable drugs that will make money. The rest are ignored. It is not the potential to benefit humanity or cure disease, but the potential to make money that is the driving force.
I am one of the conspiracy theorists who subscribe to the idea that there are improprieties between big pharma and the FDA/CDC. There is indeed a revolving door between those in the pharmaceutical industry and the federal agencies that are charged with regulating them. After leaving government service some are hired by the same companies they were supposed to be regulating and for outrageous salaries. I do call that collusion.
science.org/content/article...
npr.org/sections/health-sho...
thehill.com/blogs/congress-...
I do not trust "the government" to make best decisions for my health.
That is exactly why you should be encouraging this bill. The pharmaceutical industry won't pay to test supplements, so why not make the multibillion dollar supplement industry foot the bill?
If you don't trust the FDA to evaluate drugs, who do you trust?
When the profit motive is the driving force of a person or agency's action, I do not trust them. Why not put the NIH research out there for everyone. Let people do their own research on those studies. The experts have failed us.
The NIH research IS public. You and I are incapable of doing our own research - do you understand what it takes to recruit and monitor hundreds of men for a clinical trial? Many of us are only alive today because the experts have devoted their lives to making life-preserving medicines.
It's conspiracy fact, not theory. Only the willfully blind or ignorant would maintain otherwise.
While collective knowledge-sharing is good, you are wrong in calling government the resource for collective knowledge-sharing. Government-even in its best and purest iteration- exists to govern, not to make informed decisions for individuals. The collective will never make a better decision than the individual in real time; it does not have the speed.
-Sunlight
Well said.
The collective provides the information that the individual can't. You make your own health decisions based on that information. Unless you are completely off the grid, you rely on government every day to make sure the water you drink is clean and that the foods you eat are healthy. If you choose to drink well-water and raise your own food, that is certainly your choice.
The government is dismally failing at keeping our food clean -- think Standard American Diet SAD -- and fluoride in our drinking water.
I don't think poor diet can be blamed on the government or has anything to do with keeping our food clean. Agree that fluoride should be put in all drinking water, but that is left to the states and municipalities.
You said "Unless you are completely off the grid, you rely on government every day to make sure the water you drink is clean and that the foods you eat are healthy." Half the highly processed crap on grocery store shelves is not "healthy."
And fluoride is an industrial waste that a recent Harvard study has shown to lower IQ.
The USDA assures the food supply is healthy. What the "highly processed crap" manufacturers do with those foods is not government controlled.
Widespread disagreement over the link between fluoride and IQ: nature.com/articles/s41415-...
in reply to Haskell
Hopefully the person regulating the amount of chlorine going into the water isn’t having a bad day lol
All due respect, it has been proven that the drug my mother took while Pregnant with me has caused my infertility. A combination of that drug and Lupron and other drugs used to treat my infertility is believed to have caused my breast cancers. Eli Lilly was aware of the problems and continued to sell DES for several years. Lupron was approved for PC, not for infertility. By the way, my mother died because of her oxy addiction. PLEASE, respect that the drug companies don’t always do the right thing. (Yes, I am on this site because of my husband’s PC).
I agree. That's why we need government oversight.
DarrylPartner
With respect for Magnus and his concerns, But this bill is common sense good. It will probably save lives and will certainly improve quality and labeling.youtu.be/spychiTeRd0
This is no surprise! Pharma will never give up . Too much cash involved for them !
I thought the USP (United States Pharmacopeial) already handled safety and efficacy of supplements? When I purchase a supplement recommended by my MO, I seek out the USP seal , knowing that the product meets certain criteria , ingredients, manufacture and purity. I see no need for further legislation, just another money maker for the govt. and intrusion into our lives, certainly the cost will increase if the legislation passed. [IMHO]
Good information for the members. Thanks for sharing this,
Thank you for sharing this. I need to dive deeper but my first inclination is to be in favor of this legislation. Just yesterday my adult daughter told me about this remarkable supplement her friend was marketing. I am by no means an expert, but had enough knowledge to break down the ingredients and go through one by one and explain why she did not want this supplement.
My daughter is very smart and grew up surrounded by science. She had no clue. She appreciated the insight.
I have not yet read the proposed bill, but would it not also open up the ability to market supplements using legitimate, supported claims? To a reputable company making solid products, this would seem to be an advantage and well worth their research investment.
The bill would make every supplement very expensive, if they ever reach the market. Supplements are already expensive and I have a feeling that is due to big pharma buying up supplement companies.
Don't hold your breath.
Unlikely to pass.
Too much money at stake.
Too many Repub legislators.
Thank God. Sanity prevails.
in reply to cesces
You say that like it's a bad thing.This is a solution in search of a problem.
I've been taking supplements for years with great benefits and absolutely no problems.
Yeah I knew that this potential legislation would make one of our members jump for joy.
I wonder who. Is that an 'ad hominum' attack as he likes to say (and show off his erudition)?
cesces in reply to
'Yeah I knew that this potential legislation would make one of our members jump for joy.
I wonder who. Is that an 'ad hominum' attack as he likes to say (and show off his erudition)?"
Probably is. Certainly not needed to get your point across. Lol
in reply to cesces
Well he certainly isn't shy about getting his anti-supplement bias across. Why shouldn't I call him out? ROFL
Stock up on your supplements!
If this passes, even if you can still get them, the companies are going to pass the cost on to the consumer. It never fails.
Save lives? More people die from smoking and booze.
Well, hopefully they leave my green tea alone and I'll go back to making broccoli sprouts.
Sprouts are a supplement, my friend. They're coming for you!
Stock up your supplements…. Now where have I heard something like that before🧐… oh yeah, from the gun guys… right after every mass shooting …
Gotta love the US of A….
Yeah, sorry guys, I work for a supplement company and I am just trying to generate profits by spreading a rumor.
😅😂🤣
Think we'll be seeing mass supplement deaths in public spaces? Avoid crowds!
When I began treatment, the docs recommended calcium, vitamin d, and fish oil. I followed directions and took the supplements. I have no idea if they made any difference in anything. No way to evaluate their effectiveness, their impact upon my health, their true potency or any other aspect of them (is one brand of supplement better than another? using what criteria? what's the best dosage of them? what are the interactions among them and FDA approved drugs? and so on) .
For whatever it's worth, it seems to me that some unbiased, governmental agency should evaluate these products and tell us if what we're taking makes any difference at all. Of course, if one wants to take such products, knock yourself out and enjoy but shouldn't you know if what you're taking at least does no harm? And, none of us is remotely capable of making this assessment. Unfortunately, from reading the responses above, it seems that we're getting mired (once again) in politics and one's view of "the government." Sigh.
There is no such thing as “unbiased governmental agency.”
That’s right, KingNeptune. And there is no such thing as an unbiased corporation or business, either. “Trust no one.”
Exactly. You are responsible for your health and decisions. We all know money corrupts. Heard that from a good source.
I’m waiting to meet my first “unbiased person”. Still looking. Tried the mirror, and that didn’t work out.
Yes. Unbiased is a word like fairness. Neither exist in real life.
in reply to EdinBmore
Right. Lets all pay double to support another needless regulation and the army of regulators that go with it. Is it just Pharma pushing this or doctors too? Doctors hate supplements too.
Years ago after a golf outing sharing drinks with a prominent internal medicine physician his problem with nutritional support most especially ones containing herbs is that you can not standardize herb doses. maybe no longer a large factor. My sharing was pharmacy can not standardize the absorption and utilization of drugs to people, yes the dose fairly exact however not the persons utilization. Same with vitamins. In addition there are "RDA" does minimal to prevent disease example 60mg Vit C to prevent scurvy. Therapeutic does might run 10 grams a day or more.
Consult the US Pharmapedia for quality. This was brought up by another member.
Well if it's supplements, then why not food itself? Unconcentrated foodstuffs being supplements in the making! Do eggs go through rigorous testing to determine if it has health benefit, or is it just industry proclamation? How about bread? What years could we extend life by eliminating carbs within? Wouldn't then chocolate donunts need testing?
Tell me where Eggs have met the rigorous testing required of drugs in order for consumers to purchase them has taken place? Why wouldn't supplements just fall into the same spectrum of the acronym agency providing public benefit by them testing themselves and issuing guidance as done here, with eggs...
fda.gov/food/buy-store-serv...
The real deal is to look at the bill at it's most basic intent and try to understand where it's coming from and where it wants to go. And not make any additional personal assumptions as to what you think it will do, but what it actually does!
Save lives? How so? How does aspirin stay on the shelves when how many die from using it?
For 50-year-old men, taking a full-sized, 325 mg aspirin every day to prevent heart disease and stroke carries a risk of 10.4 deaths per 100,000 men per year over and above their overall death risk. That's just one example.
But for the matter...
In the first study of its kind, the New England Journal of Medicine, researchers estimated that 23,000 people end up in the emergency room each year suffering from heart palpitations, chest pain, choking or other problems after ingesting dietary supplements.
Most of those patients were young adults, children or the elderly. While that number is a small fraction — just 5 percent — of the number of ER visits involving pharmaceuticals!
The study, which was conducted by a team from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Food and Drug Administration, tracked ER admissions at 63 hospitals throughout the United States from 2004 to 2013. Of the estimated annual 23,000 ER visits, 2,000 resulted in hospitalizations. To put this projected number of 23,000 annual emergency room (ER) visits into context, we estimate that far less than one tenth of one percent of dietary supplement users experience an emergency room visit annually...
How many died? It doesn't say...
Anyways, labeling? Yeah, that continues to be an issue for even regular foodstuffs. Want to discuss radiating meat and how the industry controlled labeling to effectuate sales? Many outlets associated with the dietary industry have voluntarily submitted to testing and laboratory validation of the contents, along with some distribution outlets like CVS requiring it if the sell the item, etc. And the FDA already has labeling requirements and truth in advertising, etc.
The issue on the surface is taking an industry where an estimated one in two adults take at least one supplement, would be drawn into a regulatory umbrella. It would then be regulated by an acronym agency that cannot handle it's current load, to what effect? How does the immediate withdrawal and inaccessibility help individuals? How does making natural supplements cost increase, due to testing requirements help consumers? What other countries require such testing and how did that help or hinder those consumers?
We make bold statements based upon assumption of benefit, but not necessarily based upon fact. The root cause examination if this bill is to take control over an industry, but for what purpose? It's certainly NOT a health issue. And regardless as to benefit of the consumer who believe the supplements may help, that's more kind over matter than it is due to advertising which is controlled (labelling).
I'm from old school and believe if it's not broke, then don't fix it! And when some supplements have been associated with health issue or false advertising, they have been handled by that same acronym agency! Requiring testing in the same manner as "drugs" is an extreme extension of regulatory powers and unnecessary based upon the premise the bill portends. It therefore only leaves the financial side of things to be considered in a competition market setting in my opinion. Has a cost basis study been done associated with this bill to expose the effect on pharmaceuticals? Of course with no "natural" competition, what would happen to the cost of those already tested drugs for those conditions consumers use supplements for? Hmmmmmm... Once the supplements are removed of course. Surely there's no benefit to those supporting this bill right?
Protecting consumers is not something so easily accomplished, the old saying "A Fool and his Money are soon parted" holds true across a great deal of industries and products! But the GOVERNMENT taking control over an industry must show necessity and need for the public good. I don't see it in this instance, not in the manner this bill prescribes.
Maybe looking at the EU model would help, whereas it's the Govt agency that performs the testing and declaration of safety of a product wanting to be marketed, not the manufacturer, and it's not done in the same pharmaceutical setting as drugs... Where and when does the govt (US) serve the public? How does putting foodstuffs into the pharmaceutical category actually help the public?
The more deeply I look at this the more cynical I become... And I'm a cynic generally, it's my nature, so take that where it comes from.
Anyways, I say NO! Dietary Foodstuffs, yeah, even concentrated and sold as a supplement, should not be treated as drugs, unless we incorporate ALL foodstuffs then, including non-concentrated, so that all were to suffer the same scrutiny!
Regards
Excellent
Well said. I am blown away.
in reply to Cooolone
We all know that too much sugar is horrible for our health. Regulating sugar content in food and drink might eliminate what I call the 'obesity' aisles in grocery stores; a temptation we all have to navigate. Too bad that there's a pesky concept called liberty and personal choice that makes this problematic. How far do we want the government to go to protect us from ourselves?
Cooolone in reply to
Like the politicians that wanted to regulate soft drinks? Not all sugar is bad, and we need energy in our diet, which comes in many forms. Inflammatory response occurs not just from raw sugars too.
Sorry, but no, I believe that's such a grievous invasion in regard to the simple liberty of consumption (food). To be told what is permissable, and what is not. Guidance and advising is different, but control, no, just no.
When the politicians have tried this, the feedback and rejection has happened again and again, and it's utterly ridiculous to boot, it's impossible to regulate what 330,000,000 people eat. So the politican who would champion such a law, if ever, is foolhardy, standing on a soap box pretending to accomplish something while actually accomplishing nothing.
See: Bloomberg NY... He tried!
Again, if you want to eat and be obese who's to say that's wrong, you cannot! And quite frankly I know people who had eating habits like a rabbit and still gained weight. Genetics win! Lol
But your post highlights my point above... If the govt would seek to regulate supplements, then they must get actively involved in "All" foodstuffs! On the premise that it is regulating it all as a safety measure. This okay says we aren't smart enough to decide what's good to put in our mouths! That the Govt gets to take priority over our choices, that we only live, eat by permission.
If it happens, the very first thing that would need to be done would be to outlaw Corn Syrup! Lol :). And how do you think those farmers will respond? Hahahaha it's a no-win situation. Which of course brings us back to the "why" (need for the FDA to regulate) and "what" (intent)... It's a deep, steep slope this type of regulation creates!
I guess my pessimism will show here. Most of the legislation pass in Washington today is at the behest of special interest. As another member here has said "this bill is in search of a problem." So this bill is surly backed by a lobbying group and not for the benefit of the general public.
How many supplements come from China?
I always check the label and do research before purchase. ALWAYS DO THE RESEARCH.
in reply to epfj3333
Well the precursors to fentanyl certainly come from China. China is killing our citizens and has been waging war against us, on many fronts, for years. I wouldn't buy a supplement, or dog food or treats, made in China.
I agree with everything you said. I’m my own advocate and I put a lot of time and research into each supplement before adding them to my regimen. Big Pharma and Big Brother are out of control and in bed with each other.
Think about it, how many people have been killed by pharmaceutical drugs?
Then think about how many people have been killed by nutritional supplements?
As a teen, my daughter was harmed by a pharmaceutical drug she was taking for acne. It triggered an autoimmune disease. She missed 6 months of high school. I have been very wary of pharmaceuticals since then and only take drugs that are absolutely necessary.
Pharmaceutical companies have lost my trust completely. Even more so after the debacle with the so called covid vaccines that have harmed and killed many people and don't prevent covid.
And now, the drug companies are giving the so called covid vaccines to children and babies so they can get them on the vaccine schedule so they will have no liability whatsoever.
Trust is the issue. I have no trust in in bill.
in reply to DesertDaisy
My xiaflex injection for Peyronies sent me to the ER with urinary retention. I wore a catheter for six weeks and it didn't cure my Peyronies. After reading a post by Patrick here on the benefits of an iodine supplement for improving Dupuytren's contracture (also treated by xiaflex) I decided to give it a try. I took iodoral 12.5 mg along with Acetyl-L-carnitine. My Peyronies was completely cured in less than 2 months. Supplements 1, Pharma 0 in my book.
Thoughts on “supplements”...... in 2004, upon DX’d with Stage 4 metastatic prostate cancer, I was fortunate to be recommended to a world class researcher in cancer of the prostate, kidney, and testicules. A man who spent a career in academia. A Professor in Genitourologic Cancer. As I started treatment he told me no supplements unless he approved before hand. I asked why.
His response was that he did not need his research screwed up by introducing foreign treatment, that most supplements interacted with treatment in a negative way, and most had very little, if any, research particularly on its effect on metastatic prostate cancer. He also cautioned about reading and watching so-called experts on the internet. It was not a problem for me as I had never taken any supplements. I took only what he told me to take, period. I put my full faith in his learned competency.
I contrast this with my best friend of over 50 years who stayed with me to explore treatment for his cancer. Late in the game, but based on my experiences, he wanted to stay and seek treatment. Again, I set him up with another Professor.... however, Vernon railed against Big Pharm and it’s Government Conspiracy and spent hours researching the internet for miraculous cures. He watched hours of YouTube videos by internet doctors..... he stopped taking the medicine prescribed, he failed to start treatment and six months later he died. People grasp at straws especially when facing their own mortality. Expensive Mexican cancer centers advertising one prime example. Yet, I do not judge. Each adult chooses his path.....
Many of you know that I was able to stop all cancer treatment at my Medical Oncologist’s biding in 2010. It was not until I started a program to rid accumulated visceral fat, did I ever take Doctor approved supplements to go along with primary treatment for visceral fat in January 2022. After years of undetectable PSA, I was able to do so. Each of the supplements have been researched and peered reviewed papers justify. Tale of the Tape..... lost 10 inches in the waist, 14 inches in the abdomen, 3 inches in the thighs, and 70 pounds since January. I continue with my medical and diet regime.
I share this because I believe strongly that research and testing of supplements by competent medical personal, is important. Allen is absolutely correct in his writings. Political parties have no bearing. Individuals through lobby efforts do. And Lord knows there is a lot of crap available in our digital world. I am not for a large bureaucratic government, however, there are areas for the well being of mankind that are important. I do not embrace a Big Pharm Conspiracy theory. Yet, if this is your belief, then you are an adult, and do what you want. I make no judgement on your path.
I wish you the best.
Gourd Dancer
I do recommend supplement users subscribe to Consumer Lab for $50/year. Good info all around, good testing on many brands.
It’s about time!
A major problem for us is that the Supreme Court decided in a series of decisions beginning in the 1970's continuing through the Citizen's United ruling in 2010 that spending money is the same thing as free speech. This basically makes regulation of the flow of money into politics impossible. I remember sitting in my parents kitchen as a teenager in the early '70's reading an article in the paper describing the first of these decisions, I looked up and commented, "Oh, sounds like bribery's legal now." The moneyed interests whose influence had been severely hampered by the New Deal had found a way around laws that prevented giving money directly to legislators.
Allen's point about government being the way we get together and apply shared resources to solve problems too large or complex to be dealt with as individuals is a good one and NIH research is a great example. If the bill in question were to fund an NIH (or like) government testing of supplements to insure integrity in labeling, I would be all for it. As Cooolone points out, going further than this gets complicated. While herbs and supplements may have the effects of drugs, they are often closer to food in the complexity and variety of such effects. Also supplements are (mostly) derived from healing traditions like those of China or India with hundreds of years of observational data behind their use.
If such a bill results in regulation of natural substances whose action might be of benefit to health in areas like cancer where our best science has yet to define etiologies or definitive cures and where simultaneously there is a huge financial stake, then I can see conflicts of interest where access to potentially beneficial treatments is reduced to a question of who has the most commercial muscle.
The ties between the regulatory agencies and big pharma are too dangerous. There is an issue of trust.
Why are 95% of the products they list on USP Nature Made and Kirkland products? Seems very limited. I am sure there are other good products out there. Strange.
Check the USP before buying.
Thanks for sharing info on ConsumerLabs.
Do we really need to expand the nanny state to regulate supplements too? Everyone who wants the government to act as our parents raise your hand.
BigPharma is evil. The FDA is in their hip pocket. There's a revolving door between them.
We saw, and are seeing, how corrupt the FDA is by their approval of the deadly, injurious Plandemic jabs. In a just world they would never be approved.
Let the free market handle supplements.
No one should ever shill for either of these organizations.
I am sorry Magnus but there it is from Haskell. The stark naked mentality of many facebook sites that you have emulated in a post here about supplements. You said you left facebook Magnus.
Is it your intention to turn our PC forum into a facebook conspiracy style site?
Aside from Tall Allen and Coolone and a few others with intellectual prowess you have invited many to come pour closed minded conspiracy fuel on a conspiracy fire we didnt need here on the forum.
in reply to CAMPSOUPS
No Magnus' post is timely and relevant. Unfortunate that an anti-vaxxer decided to chime in. Don't blame Magnus for that.
Are you saying that the only comments that are approved are the ones that parrot MSM, BigPharma and BigMedical establish talking points? Are you denying the corruption of all three of these establishments?
My only purpose was to inform the members that there was a bill in the legislature that could affect the future of supplements in the US. If that is my crime I will own it. I did not start the controversy. If information is that threatening to some, then the threat comes from within.
If the two points of view on this subject can let it go and realize that they will never agree, then let peace prevail.
I didn't leave Facebook, I left Twitter because they were censoring people and hiring ex-FBI and CIA people to troll their platform.
I guess all good products have are subjected to inspection. Then you get to the point where you have to determine what is a "food" and what is a "supplement". Is ginger a food or a supplement used to settle aa upset stomach.
Can't we get a EUA, just like with the China flu? I bet supplements kills less than the clot shots did, definitely less than the "standard of care" for the Coronavirus.
Thank you Magnus1964 for informing us on this bill. My husband, with this cancer, and I appreciate knowing. And also thank you Tall Allen for sharing the science you know so much about. We have benefited from both of your strong points so please keep sharing.Our bodies are made up of a balanced blend of nutrients and for some not so clear reason, Pete’s body allowed itself to provide an environment for some cells take hold and multiply aggressively. Medical science in the form of drugs made in a research lab is keeping them from multiplying as quickly. Nutrition with food and concentrated nutrition in the form of Suppliments is helping keep his body be a less welcome environment for those cells to multiply.
And I might add that keeping the nutritional costs as low as possible and letting us vs gov’t decide if, what, when we consume is VERY important to us.
$300 nutrients and $33,000 cancer drugs
That combination has been allowing us to spend more quality life with each other and we are grateful for both.
Haskell in reply to
If you haven't read Chris Beat Cancer, I highly suggest you do so. He correctly points out that cancer is a process due to a combination of diet, lifestyle, environment and stress that ultimately results in the body's immune being overwhelmed by rogue cells that result in a tumor. If we can correct those four things the body has an excellent chance of healing itself.
The cancer industry has no interest in those things, being limited to toxic surgery, radiation and chemotherapy.
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