Historical testosterone decline

I'm curious what you guys think might be contributing to this decline. I have seen many studies that arrive at the same conclusion: testosterone in men is going downhill.

[Tall_Allen]

One effect is that the 1987-9 starts with men age 45, 1995-97 age 50, and 2002-5 age 57. Those are the years of highest decline.

[Hidden in reply to Tall_Allen]

True. I'll post some more studies that show, for a given age, average T has been declining.

My PCP brought it to my attention in the 90s. I don't recall if he had any theories.

Interesting that it has continued to drop.

Not really actionable. More academic (at least for me).

[Hidden in reply to Tall_Allen]

I didn't spend much time looking at this other than viewing the graph...My car had a flat today and I was stuck on the freeway for a few hours. Kind of messed up my day and I have a few hours of stuff to do - 9 PM here.

ourstolenfuture.com/newscie...

[j-o-h-n in reply to Hidden]

Stuck on the freeway? Don't tell me that one red blooded person travelling on the freeway (in your direction) didn't stop and offer you some help...Whatever happened to that brotherhood right after 9/11? 9/11..... what was that?

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Monday 04/04/2022 12:21 PM DST

[Hidden in reply to j-o-h-n]

I know. I stop when I can. For me, it's become rare in the last decade or so because I have kids. But what's up with thousands of cars passing me and nobody stopping? I was on the off-ramp with plenty of space in front and behind me and miles of visibility.

I have AAA and if someone stopped I would have simply thanked them and sent them on their way. It's the thought that "would" have counted.

An old man in a Prius. Not exactly a menace in Mesa, Az with police driving by every few minutes (which reminds me, why didn't any of the policemen stop? Last time I blew a tire on the freeway a policeman was there in a few minutes to check on me and help out).

[j-o-h-n in reply to Hidden]

Believe it or not...... I stop.....One long story I won't get into now....

Thank goodness for your triple A....

The motto of the new normal "After me you're first".....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Monday 04/04/2022 6:00 PM DST

[George71]

That's what I have been saying -- see reply to Teacherdude72

1 hour ago

"... young guys have high T to DHT ratio and almost never get PCa and old guys have a slow decline of T to DHT ratio and in time almost all get PCa .

Statement from New England Journal of Medicine and Harvard Medical:

" Men deficient in an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductase type 2 DO NOT develop an enlarged prostate ... OR PROSTATE CANCER. Without 5-alpha-reductase type 2, testosterone can’t be converted into DHT, which promotes prostate growth. (See “Two enzyme types,” below.)

Because finasteride tamps down 5-alpha-reductase type 2, researchers hypothesized that it would lower DHT levels and help prevent prostate cancer."

[LearnAll]

In general, testosterone level depends on amount of physical activity in a given generation. May decades ago, men used to work hard in farms and factories every day 8 to 10 hrs a day. They had bigger muscles and had higher testosterone levels. This "coach potato" generationdoes not have high level of physical activity and hence lower T levels. Change in type of diet in last few decades might be another factor.

[Hidden in reply to LearnAll]

One thing I loved about having Arnold as the physical fitness champion in the White House was that he was vocal. He continues to speak his mind.

[LowT]

Obesity goes up - Testosterone declines.

Wonder what free Testosterone, LH, FSH, PRL, Estradiol graphs would look like during same period.

[Hidden in reply to LowT]

Obesity has risen considerably since the 80s. Gets worse every year. I remember back in 2000 looking at the obesity stats and thinking they were insanely high. I looked again roughly 10 years later and the 2000 stats were those of a relatively mean and lean population. Fast forward to today and they are crazy high. I think something like 20% of us are in the normal weight, non-skinny-fat population. The pendulum must swing back someday. I hope.

[Hidden in reply to LowT]

I'd venture a guess that estradiol would be increasing.

[Hidden in reply to LowT]

what does estradiol do if you are obese? go up or down?

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

T decreases with obesity. So E would decrease. Important to note that this is endogenous E. Made by the body.

If exogenous E increases (external) then T would begin to downregulate.

So obesity drives T down and I would think that if external E is increased then T would either stay the same (if not much E is added) or go down.

And then lipolysis is decreased. So you get fatter, and T goes down even more, then lipolysis decreases, fatter, lower T... downward spiral. Add in some external E and it becomes even worse. Add in the fact that as T goes down you are less likely to want to exercise (and the result of exercise isn't as great since your androgens are lower - T and DHT) then you get fatter and your T goes down more, and more, and more.... And your cardiac health and bone health goes.

Bad bad spiral. The good news is that it can be arrested with Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) if needed. When the TRT is started it will also be important to exercise, clean up the diet, and decrease the estrogenic inputs. In reality, I don't know if external estrogen is important since TRT can be adjusted and aromatase inhibitors can be added as needed to dial in T and E.

[noahware]

If it is true that for a given age, average T has been declining, I would agree with others that lifestyle could be a driving factor... especially the increase in obesity that appears partly driven by the "low fat" dietary advice that winds up increasing many individuals' net consumption of simple carbs.

Obesity rates are probably being driven up by excess consumption of simple carbs (breads, desserts, sodas, snacks, etc.) which do not signal satiety, and NOT by excess consumption of dietary fat. Is "low-fat" yogurt that is loaded with sugar really a healthy food? I think not.

[Hidden in reply to noahware]

I eat mostly unprocessed foods. But I also eat some keto foods. For exactly the reason you mention. Most of the processed stuff has loads of sugar.

[binati in reply to noahware]

True that most obesity and diabetes problems arise from too much carbohydrates.

[London441]

I concur with those who speculate our decreased activity coupled with quantity of food eaten (excessive) and type of food (typical American diet, poisonous) is largely responsible. Responsible for a host of things in fact.

Perhaps along with ever larger amounts of toxins in our air, water and food supply.

Pure speculation of course, but it seems almost obvious that one or more of these factors are primary.

[maley2711 in reply to London441]

yet , despite that, and before Covid, our life expectancy had been increasing?

[Hidden in reply to maley2711]

True, but can we do better?

[London441 in reply to maley2711]

Sure, life expectancy keeps increasing, Covid just a interruption. Medicine is great at extending life, but decrepitude marches on regardless. If healthspan could similarly be extended that would be quite something. Instead (some of) us try to do it ourselves, obviously with mixed results!

At 66 I already don’t have the energy (or the testosterone) I used to. This was true before my Pca diagnosis. I eat well, have a great life, family and friends, and I’m elite athletically for my age. Still, the machine is wearing out. No complaints!

When I was young and stupid I thought I wanted to live to 120. A casual look at the average 90 year old should have been plenty enough to change my mind. Nowadays there’s an entire culture that thinks we’re going to solve for decrepitude with ultra healthy lifestyle and medical advances.

Ugh. I don’t have enough money for it anyway. May they all live to 200 or more. I’ll take whatever is on offer for me instead!😀

[Hidden in reply to London441]

I don't try to compare myself to the 30-year-old me. Or to other 30 or 40 yo's. I do compare myself to guys my age. So if we are elite athletically and have better health than most men our age, works for me.

I don't want to live forever. I'm shooting for 12 more years. Anything after that is gravy as long as I have the health to enjoy it.

One of my favorite examples is Jack Lalanne. He lived to 96 and had an athlete body into his 70s. He still looked great in his 80s. Go forward until you drop off the cliff of health. Jack lived a long, quality, life.

[maley2711 in reply to Hidden]

I have known quite a few oldies who had good later years, bu definitely did not look "great" .

[Hidden in reply to maley2711]

Jack at 80.

Jack Lalanne at 80

[maley2711 in reply to Hidden]

does being like him guarantee a longer life?

[Hidden in reply to maley2711]

Of course. He could jump out of the way of lightning and jump out of the way of buses. He once had a heart attack and was able to run in 3.26 seconds to the nearest ER.

Life goals are a personal choice and I respect every person's individual decision. Most of us favor long life. Some favor athleticism. Jack had both but that's neither here nor there. I would pick athleticism; as well as being some kind of a strong thoughtful jock-type role model for my kids. Hence high testosterone and mBAT with SARMs on the ADT phase. My MO knows me and concurs - I think she knows that if I wasn't able to be true to myself I would give up. I want to go forward until I drop off the cliff of health. My goal is 71 (I'm 59).

There are hundreds of studies (including some from the NIH) that show that exercise is tied closely with longevity. I have even a few that correlate absolute strength with longevity and health (and cancer outcomes). I don't know how or if we can separate exercise from muscle performance.

1. Association of Muscle Mass with Survival after Radical Prostatectomy in Patients with Prostate Cancer pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/309...

2. Exercise-induced biochemical changes and their potential influence on cancer: a scientific review: Robert James Thomas, Stacey A Kenfield, Alfonso Jimenez bjsm.bmj.com/content/bjspor...

3. A prospective study of physical activity and incident and fatal prostate cancer: Edward L Giovannucci, Yan Liu, Michael F Leitzman, Meir J Stamfer, Walter C Willett pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/158...

4. Recreational Physical Activity in Relation to Prostate Cancer-specific Mortality Among Men with Nonmetastatic Prostate Cancer: Ying Wang, Eric J Jacobs, Susan M Gapstur, Maret L Maliniak, Ted Gansler, Marjorie L McCullough, Victoria L Stevens , Alpa V Patel pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/287...

5. MET-hour equivalents of various physical activities health.harvard.edu/staying-...

6. Muscle Mass Index as a Predictor of Longevity in Older-Adults Preethi Srikanthan, M.D., M.S. and Arun S. Karlamangla, M.D., Ph.D ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

7. Why Exercise Is Important When You Have Prostate Cancer, and the Best Workouts to Do: Maria C Masters livestrong.com/article/1372...

8. Muscle–Organ Crosstalk: The Emerging Roles of Myokines: Mai Charlotte Krogh Severinsen, Bente Klarlund Pedersen academic.oup.com/edrv/artic...

9. Exercise-induced biochemical changes and their potential influence on cancer: a scientific review: Robert James Thomas, Stacey A Kenfield, Alfonso Jimenez bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/8/640

10. Sulforaphane causes a major epigenetic repression of myostatin in porcine satellite cells – PubMed (Myostatin inhibition leads to non-androgenic muscle hypertrophy) pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/230...

11. Greater stimulation of myofibrillar protein synthesis with ingestion of whey protein isolate v. micellar casein at rest and after resistance exercise in elderly men – PubMed pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/222...

12. Myokine Signaling Blockade Prevents Androgen Deprivation Therapy Induced Sarcopenia and Suppresses Tumor Growth: Chunliu Pan Shalini Singh John Krolewski Kent Nastiuk faseb.onlinelibrary.wiley.c...

13. The effects of different exercise training mode on interleukin, 15_life0403_82_86.pdf lifesciencesite.com/lsj/lif...

Exercise vs longevity and Pca mortality

[maley2711 in reply to Hidden]

Thanks for impressive list of references!! and I'm sorry you must deal with this at 59....I'm luckier at 73...age may explain part odf different perspectives..and I have no kids. If I did, probably wouldn't have any desire to be jock-type role model...different strokes.... my Dad certainly wasn't, but I loved sports anyway.

[Hidden in reply to maley2711]

You are welcome. They are from the book I am writing.

I think you misread or misinterpreted what I wrote. I don't want to be a "jock-type" role model. I want to be a "strong thoughtful jock-type role model". Very different things. But again, different strokes. I'm not going to take out the strong and jock-type. Maybe that would happen if I had low T!

When I met her, my wife was a dragon mom. She's watched how my son is turning out and she's come around part-way. She actually has her son working out 4x a month.

Lol! My son is on the honor roll and is being tested for gifted programs and is learning to program C++ at 9 years of age. Surprising to me because I stress trying hard but not always being the best. Interesting though, my dad did the same thing with me "there's nothing wrong with a C if you work for it". And then I went on to be the only person in my 55,000 person school to receive straight A's in electrical engineering. I never thought about that. And I am not genetically gifted and certainly do not have a photographic memory.

I don't view it as a curse that I was diagnosed with PCa at 55. My wife calls me the Disney bunny because I always look on the bright side. The bright side is that I am stronger for treatment. And I might be around to take advantage of future treatment advances (just a decade ago there was little chance that I would have found BAT or SPT). And my energy level is high enough to find the impressive list of references

But thank you for the thoughts.

[dhccpa]

Plastic bottles? BPAs?

That's one theory.

[Hidden in reply to dhccpa]

Estrogenic and anything that increases estrogen drives down the GnRH signaling and therefore T.

[MateoBeach in reply to Hidden]

Bingo. Agree about Arnold. 👍👍 (Just don’t leave him alone with the maid.)

[davenj]

Wild speculation: Effect of increasing ambient RF on our T-producing parts. 5G will make it much worse.

[anonymoose2]

Just thinking outside the box. Maybe we could tie this into global warming? Seems to run parallel.

[j-o-h-n]

Increase in sex change operations.....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Monday 04/04/2022 12:24 PM DST

[Hidden in reply to j-o-h-n]

I considered that. But the sex change ops that reduce T are offset by the ones that increase T. I'm not sure what the standard is. Do you bin them by sex at birth, or desired sex, or declared sex? And then what about non-binaries?

[j-o-h-n in reply to Hidden]

Easy. Take a count of the world population..... subtract those with original dicks and voila.

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Monday 04/05/2022 11:50 AM DST

[Hidden]

Sugar and Obesity.

[MeJack]

The average age of Group 1 is “58”, Group 2 is “65” and Group 3 is “68.5”. I personally see a biased study.

[Hidden in reply to MeJack]

And this one? ourstolenfuture.com/newscie... have found many. My PCP and I discussed this 30 years ago. We thought that the drop was bad then, keeps dropping.

Not really actionable if you control hormones exogenously as many of us do. But still, academically interesting and I'm going to ask my MO today if she has any ideas.