"Conclusions and Relevance Statin use at the time of ADT initiation was associated with a significantly longer TTP during ADT even after adjustment for known prognostic factors. Our in vitro finding that statins competitively reduce DHEAS uptake, thus effectively decreasing the available intratumoral androgen pool, affords a plausible mechanism to support the clinical observation of prolonged TTP in statin users."
Statins and ADT?: "Conclusions and... - Advanced Prostate...
Statins and ADT?
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36 Replies
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Statins are also anti inflammatory which helps by reducing the drivers of progression.
Sorry I need just plain explanation im 80yrs old. I s the use of statin good or bad.
in reply to Joecarver
Probably good.
Good. Not a direct cancer treatment but a good support. Helps protect the heart too, what’s not to like as long as you don’t have side effects. Most are fine with it
the downside of statins is they are very hard on the liver and kidneys, raise blood sugar levels, can affect your cognitive abilities, hard on the lungs, skeletal muscles, eyes and calcium balance. Other than all that, they're great for lowering cholesterol and triglycerides.
I use red yeast rice, which contains a natural statin but the enzymes in the rice balance out the toxicity of the statin.
Could you please supply any studies or review articles to support your opinion about statins?
i grabbed the first website i found off google, because i'd made up my mind about statins from personal experience (see my reply to Gemlin below); fwiw, here it is - veryhealthy.life/9-statin-s...
in reply to JPOM
Perhaps legit but I wasn't able to find any references to actual studies. Do you have any RCTs to support the opinion article?
JPOM in reply to
I did the research on statins and ryr many years ago, seeing enough to do risk management. At that time, I was overly worried about cholesterol and triGs so went for the Simcor. My primary care dr mentioned ryr when the statin controversy raised flags... that's when I switched, as noted below.
Are these side effects something you have experienced yourself or just something you have read about on the internet?
i was put on simcor (a Niacin/simvastatin combo) about 10 yrs ago, worked like a charm but then heard about red yeast rice... so i started taking that WITH the simcor... and almost passed out in the street a few days later. So i stopped the simcor and just took the ryr... which also worked like a charm. What i noticed when i stopped the simcor was a marked change in my mood: i became moderately depressed. Eventually, that went away but I was left with the suspicion that simcor contains some kind of mood-elevator (which may be the niacin but i really don't know).
in reply to JPOM
Do you know which components of RYR balance out the active ingredient in statins?
I'm N of 1 but I was using high dose RYR. It was very effective at reducing cholesterol. Then I switched to a statin (more cost-effective, less chance of toxic impurities, and a higher chance of knowing the amount of active ingredient). It was very effective for cholesterol reduction. More so than the RYR. I think that is likely because the RYR that I was using (HPF Cholestene) did not contain 100% of the active ingredient claimed.My labs are relatively unchanged. My liver enzymes improved but I don't attribute that to the switch. I haven't noticed any difference in side effects. My NMD thinks that statins are similar to RYR. He wanted me to use CoQ10 if I used either of them. But I never noticed the supposed CoQ10 deficiency effects and government RCTs do not support it so I did not add it.
dhccpa in reply to
I've wondered if I really needed CoQ10. I ran out and haven't reordered. How do you tell if your body is missing it?
Careful with CoQ10, I seem to recall either Snuffy Myers (my old MO) or Dr. Sartor my current MO warning against taking it saying it fuels PCa.
Ed
in reply to EdBar
It is an antioxidant so might be protective against PCa. And research studies dumping it on cells in Petri dishes show that it kills PCa cells. So does alcohol by the way. So the take-home for me is that I need to excise all of my cancer, put it into a petri dish, and dump some alcohol on it. Done with this cancer nonsense.
Back to serious: I don't know why an antioxidant would be therapeutic once you HAVE PCa, other than maybe non-ROS mechanisms. So, Snuffy's and Sartor's take makes sense to me. I'll stay away from CoQ10 unless a phase 3 government RCT shows that it is therapeutic.
I also ditched the multivitamin for the same reason.
What do you think of Sartor? I'm planning on consulting with him. Seems like his knowledge is right up my alley (BAT, SPT, and other things that are on the edge of SOC but are not yet fully approved).
EdBar in reply to
Sartor is excellent, brilliant guy, very trial/study driven. Been seeing him since Snuffy retired in 2017. Not quite as out of the box as Snuffy but cutting edge of approved treatments. I feel fortunate to have him managing my care.
Ed
in reply to dhccpa
I've been told numerous times that you get muscle pain/weakness. Either this has not happened to me or has been dwarfed by my exercise program. You can test your CoQ10 status in your serum. After a year or two on RYR/statins I tested mine and it was normal.My NMD said that taking different types of statins or taking RYR and statins at the same time would make the side effects worse. He's a smart guy but I don't think that it works that way for me. I frequently take RYR (to get rid of the stockpile I purchased) along with lovastatin (a known quantity of active ingredients), and I haven't noticed any side effects. For a while, I was taking large doses of RYR/statin but my cholesterol went down to 111. Maybe too low so I backed off a little. Of note, no side effects were apparent.
Of course, this is all my experience and maybe some people do suffer from muscle pain or weakness or low CoQ10 serum levels (needed for various processes).
I haven't had a CoQ10 test in almost a year and should do that again.
healthline.com/health/coq10...
dhccpa in reply to
Thanks. I'll see if the doc will request it.
JPOM in reply to
i've heard the "pharmaceuticals control dosage better than supplements sold OTC" argument from numerous sources. Whether that is true or not I frankly don't care. I've used supplements forever: holy basil for mild depression, saw palmetto for prostate/urinary flow health, bitter melon for blood sugar control (has kept my A1C under 5.8 for years), goldenseal root for mild antibiotic abilities, ginkgo biloba for mental acuity and recently introduced capsules that i fill myself, of turmeric for liver health (also started milk thistle/dandelion caps) and cayenne pepper, to lower blood pressure.Our bodies aren't mathematically pure either, so what's the big deal if supplements vary in dosage? Many of our pharmaceuticals are extracted from plants... to control the exact quantity of active ingredient, but at what cost? All the enzymes and other compounds in the plant that could have a crucial role in the efficacy of those active ingredients! I've confronted many doctors with this point, and watch the curtain come down over their faces, because they've been so brainwashed by Big Pharma they can't see any other way to look at medicine. Of course the "pure stuff" is required for the heavy lifting in some cases but i'll try nature before manipulated and/or synthetic compounds every time.
Am now questioning my uro onc about ending casodex (which has kept PSA undetectable for over 3.5 yrs) because of rising liver enzymes. Why would I stop using something that is working 100% because of possible side effects instead of treating those side effects with something else? Yes, casodex has been known to impact liver health but the enzymes rise could be any damn thing... the man never even asked me about my diet or alcohol consumption, lifestyle changes, etc... just went straight for stopping casodex and recommending radiation or RP! Sorry, if it ain't broke, I don't change chevvies in mid stream (there's a mixed metaphor for ya! 😜 )
in reply to JPOM
If you don't believe the dose misinformation or the toxins then look into 3rd party lab tests. One that I use is consumerlab.com.
At one time I was very pro-supplement, pro-natural. Until I started reading studies and 3rd party lab tests. Some things good. Some, crazy bad. For example, psyllium husks: 5 of 8 samples tested by consumerlab.com have heavy metals. One has almost 100% of your maximum lead exposure for a full day (limit per the FDA and I'd argue that some of their limits are rather loose and I'd like to see them cut.)
Green tea from Japan frequently has radiation from Fukinawa. That'll be true for my lifetime. Pesticides and heavy metals from China. Dirt in some supplements. Some of them have zero of their claimed substances. But some appear to be valid (vitamin K and D for example, and it's easy to test some others like vitamin C and niacin).
Have you considered taking a break from Casodex and then restarting it? I do that sometimes if my liver enzymes start increasing or I feel bad. I read an NIH study that drug holidays are a valid practice. Give the liver and kidneys a break.
JPOM in reply to
i don't doubt that pharma controls dosages meticulously. i believe that exactness may not be as big an issue as their promotionals might make it.
For the record, i've found good research sites aren't 100% either. NIH, Mayo, UMD, JHS, .edus, PubMed, you know them too, i'm sure. I've concluded that nothing on earth is 100%. It's all little better than a crapshoot, no matter what I do. Thnx for the consumerlab reference. Wasn't on my list but now is.
BAT for some reason isn't well studied, at least not by my drs. I'm flying in the face of much hostility, using my cocktail as my only tx... bicalutamide, finasteride and tamsulosin. I tend to believe hormone tx holds the PCa at bay but doesn't kill the cancer cells. Hence, taking a vacation may just open the barn door... so far, the one malignant lesion hasn't generated any ECEs. My T level is 500+ so with no ADT on board, pretty sure it would be party time for the PCa.
JPOM in reply to
PS no, i do not know the biochemistry of the rice nor the red yeast growth. i'm sure you can research it for yourself, if you want. My most reliable research lab is my own body. Use it all the time, as the last word in efficacious txs. 😀
English PLEASE!
Are you looking for an explanation of the conclusions in plain understandable terms?
Yes, absolutely. I have been treated with Tulsa Pro for PCA and BPH. Since then my doctor had put me on Vitamin D without K because I developed DVT from procedure and I'm now on Eliquis. He also prescribed B12 for other reasons. I'm having a complete blood workup early February but now I'm concerned after reading this post. I'm also on a Statin for cholesterol and it is very good now. I've been an athlete all my life and now keep active with swimming biking and running so I have always been what I consider health conscious but the past 2 years have been difficult.
The article’s Conclusion and Relevance say that patients in the survey that were taking a statin at the time they started Androgen Deprivation Therapy (ADT) experienced a longer Time To Progression (TTP). So, the cancer stayed at lower levels for a longer time.
The authors then say that they believe the reason for this observed effect is that statins reduce the body’s production of Dehydroepiandrosterone ( DHEA). DHEA is a precursor in the body to testosterone. Therefore, statins suppressing DHEA may further reduce androgens when combined with ADT.
There was a side discussion of potential side effects of statins, and whether Red Yeast Rice ( RYR). - the natural statin that the drugs were derived from- has fewer side effects than the form in the pill. In my opinion (IMO), your doctor should already be monitoring you for statin side effects, so there isn’t an additional risk to continuing statin use while on ADT.
I've found this to be informative on both statins and metformin...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/320...
in reply to SimpleGuy
Thanks for the link. There are many observational studies and most of them show the same thing. Metformin maybe good. Statins good.
I think that perhaps some of the effects of statins can be attributed to their direct effect on cholesterol.
"Patients who had serum triglyceride levels of 150 mg/dL or higher had a 35% increased risk for prostate cancer recurrence compared with patients who had normal triglyceride levels. Of the patients who had higher blood lipid levels, for every 10 mg/dL increase in total serum cholesterol above 200 mg/dL, there was a 9% increased risk for prostate cancer recurrence, according to the analysis." - this study tells me that lowering high cholesterol might be beneficial. Unfortunately, it does not tell me what lowering normal cholesterol does.
cancernetwork.com/view/high...
frontiersin.org/articles/10...
cancernetwork.com/view/meta...
This is counter-data but I think it is centered around prevention rather than treatment: bmccancer.biomedcentral.com...
The article also comes to some odd conclusions. Physical fitness is bad? Maybe they looked at the data backwards?
JPOM in reply to
i tried eliquis twice (for A-fib), because cardiologist said aspirin was only an anti-platelet, not an anti-coagulant... at the time, i trusted caridio drs. Today, I do not. I fired 4 of them. I think they are all robots or something. Eliquis knocked me off my feet, couldn't get out of bed frequently but stuck with it for 3 weeks before weening off it. I went back to aspirin. Year or two later, new cardiol said to try eliquis again. Same deal, so i asked the dr what was better: being able to exercise regularly or take pills that prevented ANY exercise? Astoundingly, he said taking the pills was more beneficial!! Fired him on the spot. Then looked up coagulation factors.... so far, the "cascade" process can NOT happen all the way without sufficient amount of platelets!" ... meaning that aspirin will do the trick with less hassle. Sometimes, the medics are just fulla sh7t.
in reply to JPOM
Most of them discount diet and exercise. My MO is more reasonable. I had to go through 4 to get one that was good.
Just wanted to describe my experience with the Statin drug Lipitor. When I was diagnosed with localized PCa in Oct 2015, I decided on Focal Laser Ablation. By June of 2016, my PSA had started to slowly rise again and so I thought I would try a statin drug, having read that statins appear to provide benefit in suppressing PSA advancement.
My doctor gave me a prescription for 20mg Lipitor tablets but, being cautious, I cut them down to 10mg. In the morning of the 8th day after starting Lipitor, I began to experience a little pins & needles feeling in both feet. I immediately stopped taking Lipitor, but I come to find out that the effects of this brief encounter with statins would cause me years of grief. Within a few weeks, I developed chronic fatigue syndrome and the neuropathy never went away but also, never got worse - until I started Lupron about 4 years later - but that’s another story.
You might say to yourself as I did, I can always start a statin, and if it causes side effects, I can just stop and the SE’s will go away, right? – well maybe. One of the issues with Statins is that, even after stopping, the SE’s often don’t go away and can even become progressive. Also, the side effects don’t necessarily show up immediately but can take months and even years to show up.
I realize there are tons of alternative references touting the enormous benefits of Statins and how they “save lives”. I am obviously biased against taking Statins for ANY reason. There continues to be a decade’s long debate on the benefits vs the dangers of statin use and I will not be drawn into debating the controversy. I only urge that you examine both sides of the argument before deciding. In my case, I was only aware of the good side and I paid a high price.
Just a few book references I have read .
“The Statin Damage Crisis” by Duane Graveline MD;
“POISONED! Recovery From Statin Side Effects” by James B. Yoseph & Hannah Yoseph, MD
If I remember correctly (or at all) statins affect the strength of the muscles in your legs...
From WebMD:
Statin-related muscle pain, if it happens at all, usually happens within the first few months after you start the drug or raise the dose. You may feel a constant soreness or weakness in your shoulders, thighs, hips, or calves. If you’re like most people, it’ll affect both sides of your body equally.
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Sunday 01/16/2022 7:21 PM EST
I added Celebrex and a lot of aches and pains went away. I take Lipitor and now have numb toes. They then gave me gabapentin and now they're ok. I'm sure they'll have a pill for the next side effect.
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