Hello Everyone.
I've managed to finally convince my dad to start supplements. He is currently only on Lupron and has no other health issues.
He already takes Calcium and Multi-Vitamin daily. (Prescribed by doc). I'd now like to add more.
Any suggestions on which supplements can we start with if we had to begin with just 1 or 2?
Thanks!!
History:
54, Pca with Bone Mets. Chemo completed.
I assume the doctor has prescribed calcium because his blood levels are low. If not, adding calcium has been found to be associated with increased fatality of prostate cancer. See these:
cebp.aacrjournals.org/conte...
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
As for multivitamins, be careful about what is in them. Vitamin E, for example, has been proven unsafe for men with prostate cancer. Biotin has received an FDA warning for interference with blood tests, like PSA. Our bodies and microbiomes have co-evolved to extract the nutrients we need from food. Overloading one's body with large amounts of any one may offset the balance necessary for good health. Do not try to outsmart millions of years of evolution without some really good evidence.
Supplements are drugs. Like any drug, safety and efficacy come first. If he needs them he should take them. But unlike most drugs, they do not have to go through rigorous testing, and there is a lot of mislabeling. The multibillion dollar supplements industry preys on vulnerable patients.
I 'm confused. I am on Lupron and I thought calcium was needed for bone health. This article from an osteoporosis organization seems to confirm that. bones.nih.gov/health-info/b....
As I said, if serum calcium is low, supplementation may be needed. But supplementing when serum calcium is alrready adequate is a bad idea. Nothing in that link says any different.
The same is true for Vitamin D, or any other vitamin. Too much Vitamin D depletes bones of their calcium. Supplement only if needed.
prostatecancer.news/2018/07...
Thank you.
No he was given calcium on diagnosis because of his several bone mets. I tested calcium levels while he was on supplementation and they were in range.
I had no idea it could potentially be a risk factor for cancer progression. Seems like more harm than good.
I was in the assumption that it could help his bones stay stronger. (Since he has widespread mets). 
If his bone mineral density (BMD) is low on a DEXA scan, he may get benefit from Xgeva or Zometa. If his calcium and Vitamin D are low when he takes one of those, he should supplement. It is always a good idea to check blood levels or scans before taking anything. Don't assume - those tests are cheap and easy to take. My friend who always worked out and ate healthy had higher than average BMD, did not require any such drugs.
Hey T_A!
Good call on the calcium. A CBC can help keep some needed or unneeded supplements or even diet in check.
Currumpaw
Right on ! TA
Cancer patients have low vitamin D3 levels. I would recommend at least 1000 i.u.'s of D3 per day.
Thank you. Do we need to test Vitamin D levels and supplement only if it’s low?
I think there is a bit of a debate over what really constitutes "low" versus "optimal" levels, especially within a medical community that is not always focused on developments in nutritional fields. "Low" levels are usually those where actual signs of deficiency might arise, which might be far lower than "optimal" levels.
You really can't do any harm by adding 500-1000 IU a day, even without testing. (Some woulds say you generally can't do any harm by adding 10x those amounts, but exceptions always exist.) There is no hurry to test, but it makes sense to me if there is any concern. I have never heard, though, of any adverse effects occurring with those modest amounts.
If calcium is to be continued, it certainly makes sense to add D3, as that is very important to making good use of the extra calcium. It is worth researching this on your own, but you might end up even more confused (as I sometimes am, LOL).
Realize, this is an area where "opinions" are a lot more common than hard "facts."
I take 5k every other day, no adverse effects and it keeps the Covids away.
Ditto on the D3.
Most of us in northern climes are at least seasonally deficient, because the body cannot get sufficient intensity of sunlight in winter (actually, late fall through early spring). On top of that, many of us do not get enough sun even in summer, and D levels tend to go down with aging.
It also appears adequate D levels are associated with better COVID outcomes, and better immune function/modulation in general.
I take 5k IU, but I think 1-2k would be good. If the doc actually tests for D levels and they are found to be low, then a few weeks of a fairly high "loading dose" may be reasonable.
As for a multivitamin, is the diet deficient in any or all of these? Some (like iron) may not be at all beneficial to a man with PC. I prefer taking just a few that seem indicated, like magnesium and a small amount of zinc. If diet is deficient in anything or tests show deficiency, then supplement, but a good rule is this: LESS, not more, is probably better when supplementing.
While not a supplement, another thing to consider would be low-dose transdermal estrogen (patch or gel), which in my opinion would be a better way to address bone loss than calcium supplementation. Another med that many take is metformin. Both worth investigating and considering.
I don’t think the diet is specifically deficient in them. Like for example I don’t know how to calculate if he is receiving all the vitamins each day. But I do know we are giving him a good diet.
Multi vitamins were first given to him when he was undergoing chemo. Maybe it’s needed during that time?
My new understanding after reading everyone’s comments is that taking a combo of several ones packed in one tablet (Multivitamin) is not a good idea?
As I mentioned in my other reply, much of this would be "educated opinion" rather than "medical fact." Over past decades, vitamins that everyone thought would be good to get more of turned out to be bad for SOME individuals with SOME diseases, when taken in large doses.
One strange thing to me about multivitamins is the large variations between brands and formulations of all the different vitamins and minerals. Some are less than 100% of the RDA while others may be several hundred (or THOUSAND!) in % terms. And why would I trust these RDA amounts in the first place? Who are they applying to? ALL people, regardless of medical condition? That seems impossible.
Turmeric for sure.
Hello, you referring to the Curcumin supplement. Are you currently taking it? Does it have to be taken along with Black pepper? (I read that somehwere)
Thank you.
Yes, it should contain black pepper it helps absorption.
Yes, turmeric should be taken with black pepper and fat. Look up golden paste. It's a quick recipe consisting of turmeric, coconut oil, and black pepper. The black pepper should be freshly ground. You can freeze this in a pellet mold and take daily.
Be forewarned though that turmeric does decrease iron in the body significantly if taken long-term.
Main two:
- Modified Citrus Pectin to help prevent metastasis
- B-12 once every three days for slight anemia due to ADT (don't take too much)
Optional:
- Grape seed extract as a warm drink after dinner to inhibit PCa progression.
- Amla powder as a warm drink to control BP and cholesterol during ADT
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
academic.oup.com/carcin/art...
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
Thank you so much.
1) He already has widespread mets unfortunately. Will MCP still be beneficial?
2) Do BP and cholesterol increase due to ADT?
1) MCP: inhibits the anti-apoptotic characteristics of galectin-3 (Gal-3), thereby interfering with Gal-3's ability to accelerate metastasis. I would guess it could inhibit further mets in M1 metastatic patients. Read the article I linked, it is fascinating what MCP does and why it gets so much hype.
2) Yes: ADT can cause hypertension and hypercholestermia...
....a relatively hypogonadal state may be associated with a decrease in cardioprotective HDL cholesterol and an increase in serum triglyceride levels... Khaw et al., demonstrated the relationship between serum testosterone and hypertension, another well-described cardiac risk factor, linking low endogenous serum testosterone levels to a higher incidence of hypertension...
Not to get "pithy" about supplements, but why not just use citrus juices with plenty of whole fruit pulp retained (not strained) to get your MCP, along with everything else that has been shown to be beneficial in whole fruits. Where single ingredient supplements have not. (Note: careful about grapefruit fruit/juices which can powerfully effect metabolism of certain medications.)
Here is a site that gives general information about common "complementary" supplements in relation to cancer:
cancer.gov/about-cancer/tre...
I would think that you would need a therapeutic and consistent dose.
Supplements I'd recommend... Essiac tincture and CBD oil.
If you read my bio you'll see I've been taking them both for well over 3 years and am happy with my results so far.
Best wishes to all
Dave
Are you taking the CBD for pain relief? Or as a supplement you believe in to help with pca progression? Thanks
I think a balanced view is needed and I believe from your question that you already have that covered, i.e. “name two supplements”.
As said previously get tested for Calcium and Vitamin D. If needed boost with supplements until levels are where they should be then stop. Food is medicine and just watching what you eat will help. Supplements are expensive and if you took that money and bought “better” food you will be ok.
I also believe that taking back some control will help a person mentally. Being told you have cancer is a kick in the gut to most people.
That feeling of being helpless against a terminal outcome can overwhelm anyone.
Just making a plan to help yourself through diet, exercise etc. helps a person greatly. JMO.
I wanted to add that I am not as unsympathetic as I may sound. Cancer has robbed you of control, and it's only natural to want to wrest back some control. When I was first diagnosed, I was Life Extensions' biggest customer, and I still have a drawerful of expired supplements to prove it. Then I started looking at the real research and I became appauled at how I had been duped by all the Internet misinformation out there.
I think most supplements are harmless (and effectless), so if they make you feel better to do something rather than nothing, why not? But do be careful. Some drugs (let's call "supplements" what they really are) are antioxidants/free radical absorbers that interfere with the body's natural ability to kill off cancer cells. Some drugs, like biotin and curcumin, have been found to interfere with PSA tests, and you have to be able to rely on that.
prostatecancer.news/2019/04...
One I have my eyes on is sulforaphane, which seemed to be beneficial in a small randomized trial. It has to be cold-processed to preserve the myrosinase. I'm not sure it is really any better than eating a lot of cruciferous vegetables, but maybe it is worthwhile if he hates broccoli. It should be avoided (as all supplements should) with radiation or with immunotherapy. Here are some studies on it:
cancerpreventionresearch.aa...
sciencedirect.com/science/a...
Are you saying those supplements shouldn't be taken if you've had radiation?
During radiation. They may interfere.
Thank you for always responding. I'll definitely look into sulforaphane. I understand your point of view. I did try my best in the last 1 year to give him all things the natural way so far.
TA,
As always thanks for your insight. It never ceases to amaze me how confounding this subject is. My recent DEXA scan showed evidence of Osteopenia so it was recomended that I supplemt with calcium tablets if my diet was inadequate.
The nutritional science as it pertains to cancer seems dismall at times.
What were your serum calcium and Vitamin D readings?
Calcium-9.6 ng/ml
Vitamin D-47 ng/ml
Your calcium is in the normal range (8.6-10.3 mg/dL) and so is your Vitamin D (30-50 ng/ml). So there is no reason to increase your intake of either, whether by supplement or diet or sunlight. If you are slightly osteopenic, maybe you can maintain your BMD with resistance exercise. If not, you may have to use Xgeva or Zometa if you have bone metastases.
Thanks.
Bone mets were resolved with two trips to Bad Berka for LU-177 treatment. I continue lift weights and I started using my son's weighted vest.
So don’t take it during Provenge treatment too huh?
Where is a good place to get it?
Before, during, or after any immunotherapy (including Keytruda), since it may dampen T-cell response. Radiation includes radiopharmaceuticals.
I agree with TA. I would be cautious re ingesting supplements/drugs for which no benefit has been proven for cancer patients......proven, as in randomized trials! Research any advice you receive....no matter the source !! And it would never hurt to actually consult with medical professionals!! They just might know something?
My MO, Dr. Sartor advised me to avoid multivitamins, and especially vitamin B12 and vitamin E, prostate cancer loves them and multivitamins often contain these two vitamins. No need for calcium unless calcium is low, best source of vitamin D is sunshine.
Most supplements are poorly absorbed and a waste of money, eat a healthy Mediterranean diet with lots of fruits and veggies and exercise.
Ed
I have been taking a supplement of calcium for years, I do not use alot of dairy products. If I had not been taking the calcium the mets would have been more or more severe so it works for me. I have also started taking D3, 4000 I to help , I am not outside in the sun that much, I am sure others have different takes but what works for me would not fit for others. Diet and supp ki cements will always be controversial so follow the doctors recommendations.
As far as my understanding is most doctors would never recommend supplements themselves? So I had to check myself on this forum. Thank you, I'll check on D3.
I watch my blood work ad far as calcium among other readings to see if they are normal. My calcium, white blood cell count, red cell blood count among others I watch, am taking a statin so have to watch the liver enzymes. My white cell count was off but wound up with a infection from a cath in for 11 days, they found white cells and red cells in the lab work along with a large colony of bacteria. Been on strong antibiotics for a week so things are alot better. Wish you the best, keep asking questions and do the research as far as the treatments go.
Thank you. I will continue to seek answers and gain more knowledge thanks to each of you. I wish you good health 
Book. The Optimal Dose.Restore your health with the power of Vitamin D3.
Author Judson Somerville,MD. Take 30,000 I.Us daily.
my top 5 -- D3 -- Boron -- Curcumin --lycopene and Cruciferous veggies
I've been taking 10,000 D3 daily for 3 years - it has kept my blood level between 70 and 80
I take it with low dose vitamin K2/K3 -- (helps get calcium to the bones).
15mg Boron daily
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Supplement is a broad general category encompassing basically everything that one might take outside of standard of care. At a conference last year Dr. Mark Moyad who holds the only chair of Nutrition at a major university, Michigan State, remarked that to the extent that any supplement has an effect, he considers it to be a drug. (Just the fact that many advise not taking them when undergoing chemo or radiation indicates that many supplements do produce clinically noticeable effects.) Further, it might be useful to make some distinctions,say, between herbal supplements and refined single molecule supplements.
An interesting view on the difference between drugs and herbs is expressed by a noted herbalist in a recent piece about herbal approaches to Covid-19( full text can be found at stephenbuhner.com,SARS-Cov-2 Protocol(updated 8/20/2020).
"Secondly and importantly, herbs are not drugs. Nor are they even raw drugs, which some
phyto-semi-rationalists and reductionists erroneously call them. They are plants, which are,at root, only one thing: ecological modulators – both of large systems like the Earth and smaller ones like our bodies. They act to move systems, irrespective of size, back to health, to reestablish homeodynamis – what some people, incorrectly call homeostasis (there are no static states in nature only dynamic ones). And plants are extremely good at their job which they have refined over several hundred million years or so.
Pharmaceuticals, which are a century old or so, are single molecules that force a change
in the body of one sort or another. (They come out of a medicaerel system whose approach to disease is based on cut, kill, or force – and now perhaps, to some extent, and very dangerously, reprogram.) They don’t usually perform multiple actions.
Herbs often contain hundreds of compounds that act synergistically. Pueraria lobata (kudzu) does not simply upregulate ACE2. It is more accurate to think of its actions with ACE2 as performing a modulatory and regulatory function as part of a much wider range of actions in the body (such as downregulating overactive cytokines like TNF-a and IL-1â and supporting the health and maturation of dendritic cells). It is not a single-action stimulant (such as a pharmaceutical) that forces ACE2 expression, nor is it a straight suppressant, depressing ACE. You can compare apples and telephone poles, it just doesn’t make any sense when you do."
Following Buhner's statement one can search Pub Med with a term like natural inhibitors of Pten, Pk13 or any number of other metabolic pathways researchers have identified as part of the constellation of epigenetic changes associated with PCa. Across research into multiple pathways, the same plants keep coming up as significant, Sculleria Baicalensis(chinese skullcap), Salvia Miltiorrhiza(danshen) are but two examples. Often flavanoids like apigenin, fisetin, quercitin ,EGCG, etc, appear in the context of phytochemicals with broad anti cancer effects.
And it appears that these natural chemicals can have positive effects even at quite moderate dosages.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
A study of colon cancer patients with a treatment and control group where the treatment group was given 20mg tablets of Apigenin and EGCG each day. The treatment group had better outcomes for cancer recurrence.
My long winded point is that supplementation can be a powerful adjuvant strategy. Given the toxicities, downsides, and limited effectiveness of standard of care protocols in the context of PCa, a disease whose etiology and progression are not well understood, taking a well considered regimen of supplements might be a good idea.
Etiology....Good word.
I found this all very confusing and stopped taking all supplements unless a blood test showed a deficiency thanks to this group of well informed gentlemen. I have low B12 and I am experiencing mild anemia, which may have to do with cutting most meat from my diet and red meat most of all or the meds. I started taking a B12 supplement and after 1 month my RBC count and Hemoglobin rebounded. If I could find something associated with low WBC I would probably take that as well. Otherwise I take Vit D based on a low test and it has steadily risen closer to normal. I will add a calcium test for the near future. As said by people above who I feel are much sharper on this subject by me I continue this approach.
I list all supplements and drugs I am taking with MO...so he can judge for himself and factor in bloodwork etc.
Chocolate chip ice cream (two scoops)....
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Friday 09/11/2020 5:21 PM DST - A salute to all our heroes...
Just two. That's difficult to choose. I really can't.
For metastasis: I'd recommend modified citrus pectin and berberine.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
For purifying and detox: I'd recommend dandelion, barley grass, and milk thistle.
For antioxidant: I'd recommend turmeric, green tea, quercetin, and grapeskin/seed.
For immune rebuilding: I'd recommend mushrooms, astragalus, and beta glucans.
Also resveratrol, black seed, and lycopene.
Be sure to get enough zinc and vitamin D.
Which 2 supplements do think this patient who had an astonishing recovery from terminal pancreatic cancer might recommend?
Unresectable Pancreatic Adenocarcinoma: Eight Years Later
None.if he can't sit in the sun with bare skin frequently then vitamin D.
No evidence for anything else.
Supplements make the company selling them rich but don't help make patients healthy.
What 1-2 books would you recommend for a woman to help understand her man's prostate cancer journey
High AST and ALT on Zytiga. Advice to help lower?
Jevtana failed, next Lutetium-177
Appointment with MO what to do after abiraterone ( other version of zytiga )
Liver Mets & NEPC properties w/o drugs driving it?
