Although some men with PCa make no lifestyle changes & put their trust exclusively in standard care, reports indicate that a majority of American men with PCa hedge their bets. Perhaps the most common phrase one reads on PCa sites is: "I've cut down on red meat." (Or cut it out entirely.) It's the sort of advice we have been hearing for well over fifty years, along with "drink 8 glasses of water every day", etc, etc.
"We analyzed data from 474,996 participants {46% men} in UK Biobank. Participants were aged 37-73 years and cancer-free at baseline (2006-10)."
"Higher intake of red and processed meat was specifically associated with a higher risk of colorectal cancer; there was little evidence that meat intake was associated with risk of other cancers."
Well, none of us want a second cancer, and radiation in the colorectal region also increases risk and concern, but it's such a relief to know that the "old 96'er" I had in Dallas in 1979 did not cause my cancer [2].
Of course, this is a British study and Brits have a different relationship with meat. I was born in 1948 and it wasn't until 1954 that meat ceased to be rationed. I well remember my mother throwing the ration book out. And then there is the issue of what passes for a ham sandwich. An American friend visiting London ten years ago, opened his sandwich, held up the thin slice of ham to the light & said "I could put it in my eye and still see good!"
If red meat is not associated with PCa risk in Britain, might it nonetheless be associated with shorter survival? Comments please.
. 2020 Aug 20;dyaa142. doi: 10.1093/ije/dyaa142. Online ahead of print.
Meat intake and cancer risk: prospective analyses in UK Biobank
Anika Knuppel 1 , Keren Papier 1 , Georgina K Fensom 1 , Paul N Appleby 1 , Julie A Schmidt 1 , Tammy Y N Tong 1 , Ruth C Travis 1 , Timothy J Key 1 , Aurora Perez-Cornago 1
Affiliations expand
PMID: 32814947 DOI: 10.1093/ije/dyaa142
Abstract
Background: Red and processed meat have been consistently associated with colorectal cancer risk, but evidence for other cancer sites and for poultry intake is limited. We therefore examined associations between total, red and processed meat and poultry intake and incidence for 20 common cancers.
Methods: We analyzed data from 474 996 participants (54% women) in UK Biobank. Participants were aged 37-73 years and cancer-free at baseline (2006-10). Multivariable-adjusted Cox proportional hazards models were used to determine associations between baseline meat intake and cancer incidence. Trends in risk across the baseline categories were calculated, assigning re-measured intakes from a subsample.
Results: During a mean follow-up of 6.9 years, 28 955 participants were diagnosed with malignant cancer. After correction for multiple testing, red and processed meat combined, and processed meat, were each positively associated with colorectal cancer risk [hazard ratio (HR) per 70 g/day higher intake of red and processed meat 1.32, 95% confidence interval 1.14-1.53; HR per 20 g/day higher intake of processed meat 1.18, 1.03-1.31] and red meat was associated with colon cancer risk (HR per 50 g/day higher intake of red meat 1.36, 1.13-1.64). Positive associations of red meat intake with colorectal and prostate cancer, processed meat intake with rectal cancer and poultry intake with cancers of the lymphatic and haematopoietic tissues did not survive multiple testing.
Conclusions: Higher intake of red and processed meat was specifically associated with a higher risk of colorectal cancer; there was little evidence that meat intake was associated with risk of other cancers.
Keywords: Cancer risk; meat; poultry; processed meat; prospective cohort study; red meat.
We were told, by integrative doctors, that meat and dairy are bad for cancer patients. So we adopted a plant based diet. We are ok swapping meat for beans.. but I am sure there are unhealthy vegan diets as well.
I have read that meat increases your inflammatory markers. For us this is enough of a reason to avoid.
(I will confess I miss a good tender filet magnon.)
A filet mignon upgraded to the max is the Tournedos Rossini. You don't have to be an opera fan to like it, but you will sing its praises. Hard to find. I have only eaten it twice in 72 years. Everything in moderation.
Thank God...they are at least admitting that red meat promotes colon cancer...until a few years ago ,this was not accepted.
Animal body parts esp packed and processed Does increase systemic inflammation . Higher systemic inflammation promotes growth of cancer cells. Agree with soft waremom about pro-inflammatory effect of meat.
The reality of the SAD is that no guy wants to forego ingesting animal protein. Not even cardiologists, urologists or oncologists. It is rare to find a vegan doc. They’ve spent years working and training to attain a lifestyle from which they can buy whatever they want to eat, and in med school, they received about an hour of nutritional instruction, so they’re finished being told what they should eat to stay healthy. And most primary care docs don’t want to be seen as scolds so they don’t try to influence their patient’s diets. The docs perceive it as a lost cause anyway, and it probably is a lost cause for men past twelve
years old.
Until the heart attack occurs. Only the guy who survives his major adverse cardiac event (MACE) then reads Ornish and Esselstein becomes a vegan. The rest coast along and deny it’s a problem they can’t outrun.
Doctors understand nutrition reasonably well certainly better than the general public! They can prescribe diets to good health but don't! Because patients wouldn't listen? I think not, diet books or books to good health are to be purchased everywhere and are a very large and growing busines! All mothers 60 years ago were given food guides for their families that were diets for good health! I don't believe this is done today because there is no money in good health! What you eat is what to are and this applies to a host of diet related health problems including Cancer!
It's not just the meat, but what comes with it.... Grass-fed meat > Corn-fed > Hormone-laden > Nitrate-laden > Chain burger... higher up the chain the better, but I still get an In-n-Out burger every once in a while.
But it's socially responsible to eat LFTB - lean finely textured beef (aka Pink Slime) - in one's burger, because it lowers the need for new landfills. LOL
There are lots of studies linking red meat with a decrease in life expectancy.
Heme iron is really bad for PCa. I'm a little surprised that this study showed no increased risk. However, I think that the risk they looked at was risk of Getting cancer and not the risk of Dying from an existing cancer. Two very different animals.. Also, health risk studies need to take into account what the red meat is replaced with. Chicken, turkey, and fish? Still a fair amount of heme iron. Fruits, grains, and veggies? Insignificant heme.
Completely agree. Meat takes away Digestive space available for Veggies. That said, smaller meat portions consumed less frequently (than daily) is my compromise.
Red meat is associated with a higher quality of life for me. And since we're on the subject of steak scenes from movies, here's my favorite.
Gee, will we ever get beyond this stupid idea that we can cure ourselves by what we eat. Common sense says that some foods are healthier then others, but that said, there is little to be gained by making such radical changes to one's lifestyle at this stage of the game. Quit trying to reach out for the dream and start to live life LARGE, with the time you have left.
LIVE WITH CANCER DO NOT LET YOUR CANCER RUN YOUR LIFE!!!!!!
You are not going to save your life from cancer by going on some radical diet or eating a bunch of supplements.
You can, however, lose your life by not living it to the fullest and enjoying the things you love in life. I'm not giving up the foods I enjoy for a false hope.
Focus your time and energy on getting the best treatments available and enjoy the foods you love.
Living Large..has different meaning for different people. For some its eating stale, putrefying animal body parts, for some it is smoking cigarettes all day long, for some its remaining in la la land with drugs.
On the other hand, for some meaning of living LARGE is staying fit, eating healthy , loving their family and friends to the extent that they are willing to eat even rocks if it helps with their illness and prevent their wife and children from going broke. Not imposing meaning one person's living LARGE philosophy on other is the right way to respect others. What we sow..that we will reap.
It's a false equivalancy to compare smoking cigarettes to eating meat. Just because I don't buy into "diet religion" doesn't mean I'm going to unhealthy hell.
It bothers me when I see people selling false hope to sick people, encouraging them to replace proven science with beliefs.
There's a vast middle ground between people who have a reasonable, moderated diet and others that take excessive health risks which are still, by the way, their right to take free of judgement.
I eat a fairly healthy diet myself of fresh fruits and vegetables, grains and yes meat. I try to buy organic when I can and even support local, small farmers.
But I don't live under some illusion that any of that will treat my prostate cancer and I don't use my good luck so far to promote my own agenda of snake-oil cures like some on this forum.
I also agree. Eat heart healthy. Having an occasional burger or steak or ice cream makes me happy. Life is too short as it is to deprive yourself. Enjoying life is now more important than ever!
Right on. As with other things, there is that "diminishing returns curve".
After you get to a certain point, the effort you put in is much greater than the improvement you achieve. The improvement of an extreme diet over a moderated and basic healthy diet is minimal at best, but the extreme diet can come with big sacrifices to quality of life.
My two brothers lived LARGE. One has had several heart attacks and now has a pacemaker to keep him alive. The other got diabetes and died. Have fun with LARGE. Not the lifestyle for me!
Helping ourselves by diet isn’t a stupid idea. My cancer was running my life into he ground fueled by SAD.. It nearly killed me. At 53 years old I thought myself young enough to change completely . I went strick my first two years and lost 65 lbs initially. I also lost the pc ... No one can tell me that my massive changes did not help me to go into remission. I Cheat a little now . But I can never go back to the SAd life again . Food is medicine .. Live to eat , or eat to live. An individual choice .
I agree and don't regret stopping eating red meat. I had some last week and enjoyed it but I was on vacation and when I got home I didn't think of adding it back into my diet. I don't miss it. I made changes in diet, weight loss based on ADT side effects. This before I knew all the stuff Patrick and others have shared about how important diet is to PC specifically. I couldn't be happier with where its gotten me today so no regrets and I will keep avoiding red meat. Today I had another small increase in how fast I averaged per mile on a 61 mile bike ride. So still getting faster almost a year into this fight.
If you read what I said, was NOT to eat poorly, but given a balanced diet,exercise etc. then one can focus on living one's remaining time with quality of life. Again, focus on living, not spending YOUR FINAL DAYS in attempting to thwart the inevitable, that we are ALL going to die. So enjoy good food, get out and do your bucket list for as long as you can. Again, there is NO magic pill that is going to radically change our outcomes, as of today, so love all that you do!!!!
LIVE WITH CANCER DO NOT LET YOUR CANCER RUN YOUR LIFE!!!!! Couldn't agree more and would add believe that you have all the time in the world!! Because you do
BB3, LIVE WITH CANCER DO NOT LET YOUR CANCER RUN YOUR LIFE!!!!! I would also add that that life may be longer if you are smart about how you run your life. We all have all the time in the world available to us; do we not?
Most people in western societies eat too much meat, processed food, and sugar. We do not eat enough vegetables or get enough exercise. We should try to improve these things regardless of whether we have cancer or not.
As for meat, I think humans evolved as primates to eat a balance of meat and plant material. We all have canine teeth for that purpose.
I'm wondering about all the growth hormones used in the meat and chicken industry today. I've heard that PCa loves those to grow even faster. Any truth to those observations
I modified my food life style 20 years ago when I had major open heart bypass surgery. The changes did NOT stop me from getting stage4 PCa in 2018.
So what went wrong? I'm even more aggressive with my diet now without fully believing in the reason why.
At 78 a lot of things just don't digest as well as they once did and the "healthy", "cancer fighting" foods do seem to go down easier. I'm still dreaming of eating all the good looking stuff on Diners, Drive Ins, and Dives. I've got to quit watching that show.
Our world is TOXIC. Whether thru food, water, air etc. Try to eat as best you can. Eat as clean as you can, even to include a variety of meats. I don't know why my husband got PCa, doesn't run in his family. He got a slow growing kind fortunately but still had RP Feb 2020. So we wil watch for the rest of his life. At 58 y/o he may follow in his parent's steps and live to be in his late 80s or only into his 60s. We don't know. I'm dealing with blood sugar issues, so eating for me is completely different than for him. Haven't figured out to eat for the 2 of us.
One thing that can effect the rate of cancer growth is subclinical inflammation. Eliminating inflammation may be the most significant thing you can do to help get him into his 80's I wrote a series of posts on the subject a few years ago.
Metformin might be good for both of you. It helps smooth out glucose spikes & restore insulin sensitivity, but it also has anticancer properties. I take 4 x 500mg daily. Some who prefer, or couldn't get a prescription, use berberine.
Why did your husband get PCa? At some point - possibly at many points - the die was cast. Perhaps in the womb, or during rapid growth during childhood, hormonal changes during puberty, etc, etc. PCa is thought to be decades in the making.
Thank you Patrick. I have berberine. less side effects I hear. I've gotten my CRP down quite a bit, but still have to work on it. I don't have a test result fo DH. I'll get that soon here. I'm not a fish person but I guess I'll have to get used to it. We only eat Alaskan salmon and other wild caught fish. He likes the little sardines, me? ugh. unfortunately. I have a goal to work on an aquaponics garden outside and in my basement over the next year. Hopefully it will work.
I appreciate you gentlemen talking about all you go through. I'm the researcher, been since my mother had reaction to endoscopy anesthesia 10 yrs ago. She has been a Lewy Body dementia mess ever since. DH first biopsy did not show cancer but PSA and free PSA numbers showed him to be in higher risk category. MRI 3T showed lesions and I was able to get him in NIH study with Dr Pinto. It was GS 6 so we "watched". 4.25 PSA TO 7.8 w GS 7 (3+4) in 6 yrs. Decided on surgery with discussion by Surgeon. No incontinence, but impotence another story. Saved 75% nerve bundles. hoping they will work their way back. 100mg viagra gives 50% . Some gentlemen talk amount other meds and pump. That had been talked about, but we were trying 50 - 60 mg Viagra as that worked ED prior to surgery. I may put another question out there for that, but DH shy on that. Thanks again : )
IMHO..... if it helps give your more hope and happiness , eat vegan, etc. I doubt there is strong evidence that a man with PCa diagnosed at age 70 who switches to vegan gains much in the way of life expectancy?
Sometime in past year I did see a PBS documentary re much longer lifespan for 7 Day Adventists who lived the vegetarian lifestyle? Caught my attention!!! Maybe if I had a personal chef to do the food prep, I'd give it a try? My culinary skills don't hack it!!
I have to say that I pay absolutely no attention to all these studies, which change week by week, month by month.
Diet is like anything if done in moderation, but let's face it , if the beef is hormone ridden, anti biotic ridden, then let's eat some poor over fed chemically produced, bleached chicken, that sounds really healthy 😋, or of course we must eat fish at least once a week, but the oceans are becoming empty, so shall we have some of that lovely fresh farmed algae stricken salmon from the Far East, all with fries of course 🍴.
Bon app ! 🍻🍻🍻🍻🍫🍰🍮🍧🍔🍟🍳🌭🍕.
I'm not wanting to sound ungrateful for your post, it's not that at all, but sometimes I wonder why there is the need to spend vast amounts of money on this kind of study, when it could be used to feed some less fortunate people.
There is a lot we do not yet know & if there are indications we do not yet necessarily accept them. Take for example alcohol. Scientifically we know alcohol is bad for us & even the UK NHS says there is NO safe level although they give guidelines for limiting consumption. The reality is there are few teetotalers. The data is there the public just does not accept it. So red meat? Look at population studies & make your own decision.
We have talked about a vegan diet but quality of life keeps getting in the way. The one thing I have noticed is that his blood tests have stayed amazingly good with red and white blood cells,etc and have often wondered if it’s the protein. He has gone thru chemo and zytiga without much concern except low potassium. His dr says everything in moderation. He is very active.
Read the blue zones, forks over knives, the China study, study the longest diet and lifestyle study still in progress by the Adventists and it becomes evident that a diet not only avoiding red meat, but alcohol and other westernized dietary ways of eating will have a positive impact on longevity and disease prevention, in many cases adding years to one's life. Adding exercise adds also. Not only cutting the incidence of cancer, but heart disease, diabetes, and other diseases much more prevalent in westernized countries.
Living large requires being healthy, if one hopes to live large, whatever that means, for many years.
Yes, we've all heard of those that smoked, drank, and ate crap and lived to 100, but have seen many more die or live a health compromised life at a young age because of it.
There’s a telling scene in the film WHAT THE HEALTH when one of the filmmakers arrives at the offices of the American Heart Association for a scheduled meeting with the President of the association only to be
told by the receptionist to take a seat, and someone will be right with him. The filmmaker’s assistant turned
on his video camera and let
it just record the event. The President’s secretary approaches the filmmaker and informs him that the meeting he had scheduled has been cancelled. The filmmaker doesn’t become
upset, and politely asks her why the appointment was cancelled. She says, “We looked you up on the internet, and you’re a vegan activist. We cannot endorse anything that opposes the consumption of meat. The vegan diet would put all the cardiologists in our organization out of business and our organization with them. We’d all lose our jobs. Sorry to waste your time.”
Think about that for awhile. Then look up Dr. Kim Williams the past President of the AMA. He retired, and when asked what he planned to do during his retirement he said he was going to try and save the lives of his fellow cardiologist colleagues by explaining why they needed to stop eating animal protein and begin a plant based diet.
The reason why you see conflicting information all the time about the ill effects of animal protein versus plant based foods is because of the financial interest underpinning the meat industry. It begins with industrial agriculture, the grain and feed producers and flows uphill to your hamburgers at McDonalds. Whole lobbying firms on K St. in DC exist to protect the financial interests of the meat industry. Very few lobbyists make a living promoting vegetables.
Thank you for opening up this discussion. My take on it is that so far the research is saying a high meat diet might not contribute to prostate cancer, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t contribute at all... I am yet to meet someone who was a vegan before they developed PC. We have cut back (from having meat twice a day to having it once a week). I figure it can’t hurt, and just in case it helps, I am happy to make the sacrifice to give it a go. I think we ate too much meat anyway. 😊
I’ve met long time vegans where the timing would indicate that they were diagnosed with PCa long after beginning their vegan dietary program.
But if you believe that PCa is a slow growing cancer with a PCa cell doubling time of about five hundred days and if you also believe, as I do, that most men who have PCa started their disease journey in the second or third decades of their lives, it is hard to believe that a plant based diet would have anything to do with the development of PCa. By the time most men are diagnosed with PCa, they’ve had the disease for twenty or thirty years.
But, I believe there is clear evidence that a plant based diet helps minimize the contributing factors causing coronary artery disease. This is proven to be true.
When we’re faced with ADT for the maintenance of our PCa, one of the side effects of any ADT program is cardiovascular events caused by the ADT drugs. So, not only because I’ve
survived a heart attack and as a result
of that survival, I chosen to change the amount of animal protein that I’m eating, I’m convinced that a plant based diet cannot do anything but enhance my chances of avoiding a major adverse cardiovascular event (MACE) occurring when I need to add ADT to my survival program because I have both PCa and heart disease.
Sure, giving up stuff that I used to eat without worrying about what I was
doing to my cardiovascular system was an adjustment that I would have preferred not to do - the stuff tasted great - but it changed my long term survival prospects. And other collateral benefits happened because of the change. No more indigestion or
heart burn. It disappeared. Clockwork vowel movements. Lost fifty pounds. Blood pressure under control without meds.
So, this is just my personal dietary adventure that I relate to anyone who cares to hear it. Docs whom I’ve
encountered during my PCa journey ask as they read my records, “You cancelled quintuple by-pass surgery two days before it was scheduled to be done and became vegan?” I confirm that fact, and we start a long interesting conversation.
Thankyou for sharing your CVD history & your thoughts on veganism.
When someone says that they follow a vegan diet, I always wonder if it's a Dean Ornish extreme 10% fat diet or something closer to the Mediterranean diet in terms of fat.
Do you know roughly what your percentage fat is? Also, your triglycerides level?
My attitude to the vegan diet has been influenced by the following meta-analysis. It's a UK study from the Imperial Cancer Research Fund, Cancer Epidemiology Unit, Oxford using data from data from 5 prospective studies [1]:
"... in comparison with regular meat eaters, mortality from ischemic heart disease was 20% lower in occasional meat eaters, 34% lower in people who ate fish but not meat, 34% lower in lactoovovegetarians, and 26% lower in vegans."
I lean towards a pescatarian diet because it addresses the pitfalls that, say, a teenager might encounter when adopting a plant-based diet without researching the subject.
But, I know a man who feels so strongly about the state of the oceans that he would sooner forgo EPA/DHA omega-3 than contribute to the problem. I suspect that there are many flavors of veganism & that some men might get closer to 34% protection than 26%.
When I was faced with a decision about proceeding with the recommended quintuple coronary by-pass surgery, I began investigating longevity data about post-surgical survival. I used the Framingham Heart Study framinghamheartstudy.org/ database.
I read Ornish, but what finally tipped me into a plant based dietary change was Dr. Cadwell Esselstyn's book HOW TO REVERSE HEART DISEASE. Basically, Dr. Esselsytn guideline is that if you have heart disease, you should never eat anything "with a face," thus totally eliminating animal protein and with it all animal fat. Dr. Esselstyn is a cardiologist at the Cleveland Clinic.
My wife joined me, so, we eat no animal products, no dairy, eggs, nor fish. We live in a fishing community for part of the year, and when we made the change, our friends all considered us extreme. But, I essentially reversed my heart disease.
One never eliminates the accumulated calcium that clogs one's coronary arteries, but what does happen is the growth of collateral arteries that naturally by-pass the blockages and restore blood flow to the cardiac muscles that have been starved for a blood supply by the clogged arteries. Using PETA scans, one can see the resulting collateral artery growth after a few years of no longer allowing the accumulation of plaque to continue along the walls of one's vascular blood vessels.
Five years ago, when I began the plant based diet, my total cholesterol was 203, and today my most recent reading is 75. My triglycerides were 84, and now the reading is 48. My HDL was 58, and now its 30 - too low, and my LDL was 138, but is now 31. I had high blood pressure, but now my pulse rate is 55-60 bpm, and regularly stays in the 110/60range. I weighed 243 pounds, and now, I weigh 190. I used to suffer from indigestion, but that has disappeared.
I'm not sure what my percentage of body fat is, but I'm told by my cardiologist that my BMI is where it should be for a guy 6'2" tall weighing 190 pounds. I walk three miles daily, and until the Covid-19 restrictions, I lifted weights twice each week at the senior center. I believe that animal protein lingers in one's intestinal tract and rots creating intestinal gas while plant based foods pass quickly through our intestines. My twice daily bowel movements are an easy quick occurrence.
Following my RARP in September 2019, my recovery of urinary and bowel functioning went smoothly and quickly, and I regained full continence within a couple of months. I believe that my plant based nutritional plan is probably not doing anything to prevent the growth of my PCa, but I think that avoiding animal protein is not encouraging the PCa growth either. At best, my vegan diet helps by PCa somehow, and at its worst, it does nothing, and I'm missing the tastes that I used to enjoy, but I've now forgotten and frankly, don't miss.
Regarding calcium accumulation, my wife & I began taking vitamin K2 maybe a dozen years ago. It facilitates the transport of calcium to bone. It has a much longer half-life than the vitamin K1 in greens. At some point my doctor suggested a calcium score scan. I think it cost me $135. The results were pretty good - 2 arteries clear & minor buildup in the other two. A few years went by & my wife was tested. Amazingly, zero calcification in all four. At 50 she had the start of osteoporosis, but at age 62 there was no loss of bone at all, and then at 65, no calcification. It tied into reports that vitamin K could actually remove calcium from arteries. I believe that K1 is too short-lived to do that. K2 levels remain significant throughout a 24 hour cycle.
I'm impressed by your triglycerides. Yes, HDL-C is low, but the triglycerides:HDL-C ratio, which is a surrogate for insulin resistance is below 2:1. A ratio of 1:1 might be ideal, but I only achieve that when my testosterone is high-normal.
Caldwell Esselstyn is close to Ornish in terms of really low fat. He is even against nuts & avocados. He has his detractors, even at the Cleveland. Still, you are doing much better than those following Ornish - triglycerides usualy rise.
This is all very interesting & deserves a wider audience - after 80 replies, this thread has run its course.
What's needed is a thread that invites those with cardiovascular issues who have reversed disease via lifestyle. It ties into PCa only in that men with PCa are more likely to die of CVD than PCa. Perhaps you would like to start the next food fight?
We're taking the K2 supplement too. The aftermath of my cancellation of by-pass surgery might interest you.
I was diagnosed in rural Western Massachusetts by the usual methods of EKG, then treadmill stress tests, ultra-sound and then a cath where the doc couldn't get through and into my heart, so he backed off and told me that he'd found five blockages and I needed by-pass surgery. After I cancelled the procedure, I went to the Lown Cardiovascular Clinic in Boston for further analysis, and also to MGH.
At both facilities I was told that my situation was borderline, and they wouldn't recommend by-pass surgery immediately. Neither discussed nutritional changes. I made that decision myself, and left NE and went to FL for more rest and research. I saw a cardiologist at UF in Gainesville, FL for a PETA scan.
The PETA confirmed the blockages, so while I continued my research into diet, I began looking for a nuclear cardiologist in Boston, and ended up at B&W. I see a doc there now. He's a personal friend of Esselstyn, and he's the first vegan cardiologist whom I've met. I found him by reading his journal articles, and liked that he was young and still seemed excited and interested in his chosen profession.
He asked me why I'd sought him out. I told him that most of the cardiologists whom I'd encountered were overweight and looked in worst health than I was, and most of them sort of blew past any discussion of nutrition. I told him that I wanted a young doc who wouldn't die before I was going to because of a heart attack. I wanted him to outlive me.
He had me do another PETA scan because he wanted baseline images from the machines at B&W to chart future progress. I'm 73, and my wife is 70. She has always been a runner and has eaten more wisely than myself. I asked my B&W cardiologist if he'd take her as a patient and get her a PETA scan to establish a baseline. He couldn't justify the PETA cost given her good health, so she had the calcium scan with him at B&W. She had moderate calcium deposits which pissed her off, but reinforced our already vegan nutritional program.
I take a 40 mg statin not so much to lower my TC which no one believes it does anyway, but it does help keep my vascular linings flexible and discourages inflamation. My wife takes a 20 mg statin too. We take a daily supplement of D and B12 which vegans need, and magnesium too. Our daily oatmeal has ground flax seed and amla powder in it.
I'm not sure that starting a thread about plant based nutrition would find many supporters on the Advanced Cancer forum. After five years of our friends seeing the obvious changes in our health only three couples have made the switch to plant based diets. It is amazing the excuses that people will conjure to eat what they prefer even if it is probably cutting their lives short. We're a spoiled society.
Interesting that free range, grass fed beef has CLA, conjugated linoleic acid, which inhibits cancer and obesity while the regular super market beef causes inflammation.
Before becoming a vegan I switched to free range, grass fed beef. The taste was a bit different but I always chose shoulder steak for the low fat content and what fat there is can be easily trimmed. A big difference in texture! Bring your teeth when eating free range, grass fed as these cattle live as intended and have muscles! They aren't confined to pens.
One should also bring toned masseter and temporal muscles! Some cultures have been known to sharpen their teeth! I still have mine and won't sharpen them as it thins the enamel! I hope to get a few more years out my teeth and the rest off me too! Bill Parcells--"It is what it is."
Pandemic, fires, storms and hurricanes. Whats next? The locusts and grasshoppers. They'll eat all of the veggies, and the vegetarians will die. So what do you think the rest of us will eat? I'm getting a head start and buying a couple of acres at Donner Pass.
It seems like red meat intake has little if any impact on PC, but considering so many are at risk for heart disease on ADT, eating a "heart-healthy" diet, including less red meat seems like a good idea.
How old is old enough? Nobody remembers how old they were when they left the stage. 18 and 20 year olds have left the stage in endless wars. I'm thankful for the time I've already had. I'm guessing most wild animals were eaten by something before they ever had a chance to worry about cancer. Average life expectancy for a man is 76. (85 if he is already 70 years old). Stupid statistics that probably don't apply to us. Everything in moderation.
My mom, deceased for 10 years, used to always say during discussions such as this one: "Everything in moderation". I too have changed my diet following dx 8 tears ago- so I eat more veggies and fruit and much less red meat. But- I still enjoy it "in moderation" every once in a while.
This thread gets at the core of our beliefs involving what makes us feel good and risk/reward perceptions. I observe that some us feel good because we follow rigid practices involving diet and sometimes supplements, even though the scientific basis supporting those practices is arguable. If that's you, I'm pleased that that's working for you, and I'm OK with you advocating those practices. But I hope you're OK with me reading your advocacy posts but coming to a different conclusion for myself.
With respect to what makes us feel good and risk/reward: I can remember many decades ago I sometimes had unprotected sex knowing that the risk was not zero. But the reward seemed very high at the time. Anyone else have similar distant memories?
I pretty much eat what the hell I want, and drinks for that matter. They told me I would be dead twice already so might as well enjoy life to the fullest. Well, off to the Carniceria
For what it's worth (the info comes from the industry) the only effect on beef for the consumer is in the level of estrogen:
Estrogenic activity of common foods (ng/500g)
Food (Estrogenic Activity
)
Soy flour defatted (755,000,000)
Tofu (113,500,000)
Pinto beans (900,000)
White bread (300,000)
Peanuts (100,000)
Eggs (555)
Butter (310)
Milk (32)
Beef from implanted steer (7)
Beef from non-implanted steer (5)
Hoffman and Eversol (1986), Hartman et al (1998), Shore and Shemesh (2003), USDA-ARS (2002). Units are nanograms of estrone plus estradiol for animal products and isoflavones for plant products per 500 grams of food
Amen to that - thanks for the research and the post(s).
I'll have mine blue with mushrooms, onions and gravy ..... as in 'T' bone
Outstanding! I love a nice rib eye , but i rarely eat red meat . I am convinced Ibapal of October . Some guys go out with a triple cheese burger in each hand. Some guys can’t change .. Great post
I have been a vegan for many years and recently within the past month I’ve started eating some limited red maple tree etc. it’s because of deficiencies by following a vegan diet I’m going to give it a trial for about two months and see what happens when I do my next blood work. What do you think
I gave up red meat prior to a cancer diagnosis. Not just for health but climate and environmental concerns. There is probably no bigger a change can be done that is both beneficial to yourself and others than giving up red meat consumption (or consumption of animals in general). In developed countries, there's no sensible reason to continue the practice at all.
I never left red meat..... eat a balanced diet. Zero supplements. Lipid Panel is real good for a 73 year old man - normal. First DX’d with PCa in 2003 and APCa in 2004.
He participated in threads & initiated them too, so I missed him when he stopped about 2 years ago.
By his own admission, BigRich was BIG. He was also diabetic. While diabetics have lower risk for PCa, they also have higher PCa mortality & all-cause mortality. BigRich was a big fan of red meat - & at bigger servings than I could handle.
In spite of all this, BigRich was in spitting distance of 20 years survival since diagnosis when he stopped posting. That's a remarkable achievement. A mystery. How did he do it?
I'm not suggesting that we become like BigRich, but it makes me wonder what it takes to get to 20 years, 25 years, etc.
Do we have any 20-year vegans, vegetarians, pescatarians, omnivores?
I'm raising a glass of Brunello to BigRich & sorry that I don't have a nice steak to go with it. To BigRich, wherever you are!
Gee whiz boys, so much time spent on matters that at this late stage, matter so little. I cannot believe how many posts continue to deal with someone attempting to find some magic pill or vegetable or some bizarre vitamin that will have NEXT TO ZERO IMPACT on how long you have left.
Again meant by stating to LIVE LARGE, was not to be or get FAT, but to ENJOY LIFE TO THE MAX!!!!!
That means to make up a bucket list of things you would like to do while alive, then set about doing as many as you can and are able to do. That is living life large, enjoying each day, learning new things and have more experiences in your life. Love those that you are with, or not, and FORGET ABOUT FOOD, other than to eat healthy.
Keep in mind, many of the people obsessed with these diet cures are not people who who have "seen the light" in terms of their own mortality, They can't feel the ax blade touching their necks.
Those that know, realize that a lot of this stuff is akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Bottom line: it's a different world that advanced PCa patients live in, a world where we are not concerned about trivial BS that doesn't really matter. Micromanaging my diet is high on that list.
PRETTY ROUGH statement Gregg, been but oh so true. It is long overdue that those with advanced PC get their affairs and priorities in order, instead of spending their last days in one gimmick or another, NONE of which, in the larger scope, will make little or NO difference in terms of survival length.
Further, and to assist in getting one's life and priorities in order, go visit a palliative care unit at any hospital and see how the last days of prostate cancer men are spent. That, sadly, will have you OPEN YOUR EYES and realize that the clock is in fact ticking and very fast, and one has to re-orgnize how one lives.
You will not visit Yellowstone park, Great Lakes, New York, learn to sail/fly/dive/skyjump or any of a million things that one can ONLY DO WHILE ALIVE.
So, again, live large, live with this deadly beast within, but do NOT let it run and ruin your life. MOST of what is on this site, is a complete waste of time and energy, NEITHOR OF WHICH YOU HAVE TIME TO FOCUS ON.
THERE IS NO , NO NO, CURE FOR ADVANCED PROSTATE CANCER, as of today, so LIVE LARGE, GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND HUG YOUR LOVED ONES AND GET GOING!!!!!!!!!
Sometimes you just have to wake up and smell the cancer. I feel like I live in the real world now, not some fantasy make-believe world were I can pretend I'll be alive until I'm 120 if I eat the right foods and get on the right program. The "immortality bubble" as I call it, has been popped.
Now that I realize that life is not some endless resource I can just take for granted, I appreciate it like never before. Those hugs mean a lot more to me now that I really know what's important. All the BS has been stripped away.
And that's the short expanation of why I really don't give a rat's ass about red meat.
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Are eggs bad for PCa, round 2
