I’m trying very hard to go to a plant-based diet with some fish. I find it hard to find foods I like. What’s the thinking on tofu another soy products in relation to prostate cancer? I really do like tofu cooked various ways but I want to make sure it’s not worse than the meats I’m giving up. Thanks for your input.
Schwah
Tofu /soybeen contains phytoestrogens and isoflavones.. There has been confusing statements about use of soybeans in prostate cancer. After reading to sort it out, my conclusion is that soybean is beneficial and mild estrogenic effect my keep the bones OK.
Some people have some specific medical issues prohibiting them use of soybeans. Check with your doctor.
Just like soybean use, moderate alcohol consumption has been another confusing issue dut to contradictory studies. A 2019 Harward study concluded that small amount of alcohol does not have any adverse effect on prostate cancer and red wine might help somewhat.
"alcohol intake and risk of lethal cancer in health professional study" (2019, Harward ,UCLA)
Remember, alcohol is also mildly estrogenic just like soybeans.
When I first became a vegetarian I consumed a lot of soy and soy products. As time went on the were so many more products that came on the market that tasted better. So I dropped a lot of the soy.
The issue with soy in the diet depends on the genistein content. Physiological levels can stimulate prostate & breast cancer cells, whereas pharmaceutical levels inhibit them.
-Patrick
Patrick, can you clarify the amount of Soybean to have a positive effect ? What you mean by physiological dose ?
Dietary genistein is unlikely to be therapeutic & may stimulate the cancer. There is more awareness of this on BCa sites.
For many years, I have used:
lifeextension.com/vitamins-...
The full 5 caps daily. It delivers a large dose of genistein that diet cannot provide.
Biphasic nutrients are tricky. Some avoid genistein because of this. I wasn't aware of the issue 15 years ago - I used the product because it was in the LEF protocol at that time. I have never seen another product with a comparable (or higher) dose. It would be crazy to use it if one didn't have PCa or BCa IMO.
-Patrick
Nalakrats...
Breast cancer can get stimulated by estrogenic food...prostate cancer is different animal hormonally...Why do estrogen patches help people with prostate cancer ?
Good question
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/309...
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/306...
There are many studies which have shown benefits of Soy in prostate cancer pts. Here are two newer studies (2019)
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2....
Mechanisms as to how soy helps even in metastaticprostate cancer
There is no need to be angry...I will nor say much as you are one of my "gurus" on this forum.
I have to respect my "gurus" so I will be silent on this topic.
Well now I’m thoroughly confused with dueling thesis on the benefit and detrimental affects of soy. Very frustrating for those of us not knowledgeable enough to be able to really analyze the data. 🙈. Nal can you please send us a link or two that explains the reasoning for your firm beliefs on this subject. In the meantime I suppose it is moderation.
Schwah
As always your posts add interesting, and thought provoking. Looking forward to hearing more.
Schwah
Thanks. Please enjoy your respite,
Enjoy a lot of sunshine of my lovely native state of Florida.
Tofu lacks flavor, I like tempe (if you can find it). I got turned onto it in Bali. I've seen it in Asian markets.
I love ma po to fu in Chinese restaurants. Any opinion on the health benefits or harms ?
I really don't think that any short term (<5 years) changes in diet make any bit of difference to prostate cancer, as long as it otherwise heathy and varied. I've seen nothing yet that rises to a level of evidence that would contradict that belief.
Great point, Somehow we have to get men to focus on living and not playing this charade of some diet curing them or having an impact on our PC, living healthy is a key to quality of life so should be done as best as one can, but men should not feel guilty or bad or as failures if they eat meat, have a beer etc.
Many do not have the time to waste, when so little is changed by diet. Live large gents.
Thanks for this. Sometimes I worry that something we've done or eaten has caused my husband's very aggressive cancer or that changing our lifestyle in a major way would change its trajectory. Your comment reminded me that at this point (he was diagnosed early 50s, stage 4, PSA 600+) treatments have given him more nearly 2 1/2 years, and he's still going. We've seen one kid graduate from high school and another from college. We're planning another vacation to Europe in the spring. We do what we can, and keep trying to love and live well.
Hey T_A!
I enjoy the sauces that Whole Foods seasons their salad bar tofu with as well as the exercise that my masseter and temporal muscles get chewing it!
Currumpaw!
Agree totally re tofu. Just eat sensibly and skip all the processed garbage food.
Tempe is at every Whole Foods or Trader Joe’s . Love it..
Nalakrats, I searched the Web to see if I am using "Herbs that contain phytoestrogen" and surprisingly those herbs contain phytoestrogen:
• Black cohosh
• Don quai
• Ginseng
• Gingko biloba
• Red clover
And theses are "Foods that contain phytoestrogen"
• Garlic
• Alfalfa sprouts
• Sunflower seeds
• Sesame seed
• Soy milk / yoghurt
• Multigrain bread
• Flax bread
• Dried apricots
• Dried dates
I am taking ginseng 1000 mg daily for fatigue and Ginkgo for its Beta blocker effect. Garlic for most of us should be a pericious food to fight cancer.
I appriciate your explanation of "No Phytoestrogen containing foods of any kind will pass my lips". Can you mention some of those foods that we should avoid to keep our PCa cells in remission?
Hey Nalakrats!
I am interested in your upcoming post about vegan diets.
Currumpaw
just a little detour ---
Here in Fl. also but FULL TIME since 1986. ;0) Fishing is long over, not enough effort even walking the beach, so bicycling is my thing with walking and swimming. Rode 46 miler yesterday to loosen up the legs after my 119 miles Thursday. Just slow walked 1.46 miles with wife and getting ready to head out for an easy 30 - 50 mile ride.
Enjoy your time down here and hope you have many a "Tight Line!!!"
Amazing 🚴
I guess so because estradiol is doing a great job for me. See my profile.
I’ve been avoiding most dairy products and using soy milk daily for about 6 years now, no problems, no rise in PSA. I probably go through almost a gallon a week. I’ll continue to use it.
Ed
My advise is to NOT spend huge amounts of time, energy and money on diet. I think eating healthy is important, but not to forgo and spend your remaining days living like a hermit, and in fear of putting foods into your body that will either make your pc worse or better.
There is little scientific evidence that diet, other than a healthy and balanced one, has any never mind a major impact on advanced prostate cancer.
I am seeing too many men going to extremes seeking this eternal cure or non-existent recipe to battle PC. It does NOT exist, no matter how many leaves, powders, or any other combination you take, advanced prostate cancer is a lethal enemy that we can at present only slow down its progression until the cancer cells work around the current medical treatment options.
Better to spend your time on living life large, doing as much as you can and NOT to spend the rest of your days in playing this mindless game of making concoctions in your kitchen that have little or no impact, except to take your money, energy and time-which is the most precious element that we must cherish.
Nalakrats
How did you get your T to zero. I am on Lupron and Cassodex and my T is staying at 7. What is your secret.
Thanks
I would like to read your thoughts on vegan/vegetarian diet. My wife and I went whole food plant based one year ago. She is four years out from lobular breast cancer. Like me she has had ETKM (every treatment known to man) and takes anti-estrogen as I take anti-testosterone. The Aromasin is working for her, but I had to go on Xtandi last September because Lupron alone did not stop my PSA from rising. We made it ten months on WFPB, lost 10-15 pounds each (yay!), but went off in November. Too hard during the holidays. She wants to go back on it next week with occasional salmon for protein. Of course I have gained all my weight back and don't look forward to the Spartan diet again. I have been reading your posts for the last six months and value your opinion. I'm hoping you have some nutritional good news for me.
Thank you Nalakrats for the thorough explanation.
Sorry you got swept into this emotional flurry when you were just looking for perspective on a straightforward question. There is evidence (research). There is expert opinion. And there is certainly confirmation bias. For me, I too have benefited from using estradiol in my ADT program. However it is also known that at very advanced stages, castrate resistance may involve mutations where the androgen receptor becomes altered to being stimulated by estrogens and other steroid hormones instead of just T and DHT. At that point I may become more wary of estrogens. Short of that, eat well, love well and live well. (I do enjoy tofu and tempeh in oriental recipes especially. Good healthy protein)
Thanks Mateo. To the contrary. This is just the discussion I had hoped to open up. Science, facts and opinions on the subject. That is what makes this site so awesome. Lots of smart, knowledgeable people with varying opinions. Fascinating postings on the subject that would have taken days of research to ascertain. Now I need to throw it all in a blender and hope I can find the right answer for me. Most likely, for me, that answer will be soy products, but in moderation only.
Thanks to all for your impassioned responses.
Schwah
Hi Schwab, how about quinoa w/veggies. I do a green romaine salads daily. i also cook “wild”salmon a lot. Also, do some research for anti-cancer fruits and veggies. I am into organic as well. Billy
youtube.com/watch?v=MHj93P3...
Plant based foods , herbs and spices DO help. Do Not believe Fake News...financed by meat industry.
I am working on a bucket of Wings of Fire. A little added salt, pepper and tabasco sauce. The cats approve. Enjoy.
A fascinating discussion. Clearly PCa is affected by hormones. While the environment is "surprisingly estrogenic" as one researcher put it, we cannot always control our exposure to estrogens. Pesticides, plastics of many kinds, automobile exhaust, effluent from wastewater treatment plants,( interestingly in light of the vegetarian/omnivore thread, steroids from animal feedlots may represent the largest source of xenoestrogens, sciencedirect.com/science/a... these surround us. Unlike dietary sources that we can control, these synthetic hormones probably are simply not beneficial. The case for soy on the other hand is not so simple as just pointing out soy's estrogen content, as this 2 year old meta survey by researchers at the University of Illinois indicates. In their analysis, soy intake is associated with a lower risk of advanced PCa.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
On diet in general, plants produce an enormous number of chemicals that kill human prostate cancer cells while leaving normal cells unaffected. Why is this? The process we call cancer may be a basic result of self organizing molecules existing in an entropic universe where every physical force we know of moves toward expansion and cooling. Plants have been around a lot longer than we have and have evolved complex biochemical defenses. Many of our drugs are derived from these phytochemicals. The specific active molecules can be difficult to tease out. Garlic and onions for example do contain estrogens, they also are among the most effective at killing cancer cells in vitro. I try to keep an open mind and not be too dogmatic - that piece of apple pie at Christmas and a slice of prime rib really hit the psychic holiday spot last week!
All dietary interventions are subject to our collective ignorance in the face of the sheer complexity of unraveling any cancers' etiology. Diet has so many variables and the scientific method identifying "one mutation, one cause" that has been so fruitful in some respects is overwhelmed by the systemic interactive nature of the cellular changes of carcinogenisis. Still, double blind placebo controlled studies of diet and cancer are informative if not conclusive. That such high quality studies are few and far between is a testament to how little money is to be made there. As Dr. Mark Moyad said at a recent local prostate cancer conference, with supplements and diet we are performing our own experiments. He recommended what most here already do-keep track of your numbers and try to track what's beneficial. Since genetic composition of even a single tumor might be completely heterogenous, what works for one of us might not be as effective for another.
Also what works today in terms of diet may not work as well tomorrow. I visualize what's going inside me as a high speed evolutionary process with the billions of cancer cells offering a vast array of genetic plasticity. As with evolution in general, most combinations that cancer cells come up with will fail. There are just so many of them that the odds are some will be successful. The key here may be that we aren't helpless, we have an immune system that's capable of eliminating cancer cells and in the past year since my diagnosis, Gleason 9, intraductal, seemingly localised, but with extra capsular extension, diet and excercise are the two things I can control. I've chosen to go vegan in part because I wanted to shake up my internal microevironment, and in part because most of the studies I've come across so far indicate at least a causal link between meat, dairy and sugar consumption and PCa.
Onward Through the fog!
We Stick to the plant-based diet really well, years ago we read some really negative things about soy and Tofu etc. and we’ve never touched them since! I know Tofuu and psi is included in the plant-based diet just watch how much you eat and be happy!
Enough about Friedman. Where is this deli?
Hello Schwah..My nat Dr has told me soy is o k in moderation. Not for your main source of protein . Soy milk kills me with gas . He said a couple hands of edamame a day or some tofu isn’t bad . Digest easily and might help some with hot flashes . They have soy pastrami that isn’t terrible ., I like miso soup also or any miso products are said to do the body good .. 🎄
tofu = fu to.............
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Sunday 12/29/2019 10:49 PM EST
Oy. I needed a Gaviscon after reading your reply. Esn in gut gezunt!
I knew you take Avodart. What is Proscar and DIM?
Thanks
Thanks so much.
Is DIM a prescription?
Happy New Year.
Appreciate you knowledge.
OK - thanks - along with my Lupron and Cassodex - right????
OK thanks
Here’s my take on the whole diet and what to eat and what not to eat....and I say this with minimal knowledge compared to many fine people on this site, ....nobody really knows. When I was diagnosed 15 months ago with apc, I was willing to try anything. A family member sent me a link where “Chris beat cancer” is interviewing Dr Ruth Heidrich, a stage IV breast cancer survivor of over 35 years who had a double mastectomy and switched to a strict vegan diet and continued to exercise. She is now in her eighties and cancer free so that inspired me. I downloaded her cookbook and mostly eat foods recommended by that. I have often wondered “what if this tasteless tofu that I’m eating is actually worse for me than the chicken it’s replacing”. So I limit the tofu and mostly have beans, rice, nuts seeds, salads , lots of fruits and vegetables and a big bowl of oatmeal every morning with my smoothie. I like everything I’m eating, none of it tastes bad to me and I feel good every day. I’m never stuffed, I just snack and eat throughout the day. I exercise 3-4 times a week including running 3 miles and some resistance bands and weights. I pray daily for us all, I look at my dad who is 78 while he eats the exact opposite as me and has a healthy heart and a psa of .08 and has never had cancer and realize it doesn’t all add up. He eats steak almost daily though his arthritis is getting worse, he actually is considering trying my diet until he realized he’d have to give up bacon too. Again I’m 12 months in on Whole Foods plant based and I don’t expect it to heal my cancer. I do however know it has helped minimize side effects from the medications, along with regular exercise, mainly fatigue and i do believe eating foods that are “god made” and not “man made” are best for me. Maybe that includes meats prepared and raised without all the stuff in a bucket of KFC, but for now, I’m on the vegan path as it’s working for me. Really the lupron, radiation , and Xtanti are working, my PSA is undetectable and has been since September ‘19. The diet helps me feel better and again, who really knows if the diet is helping at all, but I do believe it’s not hurting me. One could go mad trying to navigate through all the information and literature on diets best for those fighting cancer so after about 2 months of researching, and praying, I feltI was put on this path and now I don’t stop off every day to re-evaluate it. But it all comes back to, nobody really knows.
Question about breakfast. What's in the "smoothie"? What kind of oatmeal and how do you prepare it? Do you have any soy in your diet at all?
The smoothie is something from the "Chris beat Cancer" book. It is spinach, raw almonds, a ripe banana, frozen organic berries and water. The spinach fills about half of the 16 oz glass, about 1/2 or so cup of berries, 1 banana and a handfull of almonds. I use the $20 bullet blender from walmart and it tastes like a thick berry shake. For oatmeal, I don't like steel cut, so I just get regular rolled oats, organic if possible and cook on the stove for about 5-7 minutes. I add organic sunbutter and berries, maybe some banana or walnuts to keep me satisfied for several hours. My kids like Moe's Southwest Grill so I will sometimes get their "earmuffs" which is black beans, rice, cooked veggies and maybe tofu. I will never claim to be as knowledgeable as say a "true vegan". I don't know how every restaurant prepares each meal, or if a spatula touches meat then my meal. When eating out sometimes tofu is a good substitute for meat. So I probably have tofu, and edamame 3 or 4 times a month.
My experience with soy is if I have it every day, my diet works (vegan + wild caught fish). If I remove soy completely, my diet doesn't work. I have no data on moderate soy intake. Also, I could not get a smoothie to work for me. Your smoothie has too much fruit and too much iron for me. My PCa loves iron and insulin spikes.
Diet response to oatmeal was very sensitive. I have a small bowl of steel cut oatmeal with
4-6 raspberries and lots of walnuts. I cook it until dry, and have it without milk. Pre-soaking, cooking with too much water, adding too much milk, adding too much fruit have all ruined a good diet. I find that, in general, my diet either works or it doesn't. There isn't much middle ground. By "not working", I mean the PSADT reverts to my no diet value of 7 months. By "working" I mean the PSA is not increasing at all.
Anyone for Tofurky this Thanksgiving?
Prostate Cancer Study: More Health Benefits from Plant-Based Diet
Case of stage 3 PCa patient that chose plant based diet
Mostly based on cells and models: Targeting the prostate tumor microenvironment by plant-derived natural products
Prostate Humor (because sometimes you just need a laugh
