Low T Levels or Low PSA-which is more important ?

[16starsky]

Hi everyone,

Not posted for a couple of weeks, but reading and gaining valuable info every day.

My question, (sorry for being very naïve still, new to all this ) I donot know my husbands T level, the OC has never mentioned this, and until I read about it on this forum I didn't know to ask (but will on our next app) His PSA is 2 , TA suggested adding Zytiga, to lower PSA but my husband missed out on the STAMPEDE trial, as at the beginning of his treatment he had to have a stent fitted in one kidney because of pressure from the infected lymph nodes, its ok now and the stent has been removed.

The OC has told us you cannot join the trial half way through his initial treatment, so will prob have to wait till he becomes cas res before being offered Zytiga, which I am not happy about. I will ask the OC but as we are being treated by the NHS in the UK, we cant demand it.I was thinking about buying it privately with prednisolone off the web ?as ive read on lots of posts here that adding Zytiga sooner rather than later is a good call. Any one out there (probably in the UK ) that has had the same dilemma, and what action did you take ?

Also is there any supplement's that anyone is taking to lower PSA and T levels.Ive got my husband drinking green t, pomi juice and Lycopene tablets.Eating plenty of fruit and veg, and a low sugar, carb diet . Any input would be gladly received.

I

[Tall_Allen]

The low T level just insures that the Lupron (or whatever he is taking) is working. The measure of success for most types of prostate cancer is PSA.

I'm a fan (for now) of sulforaphane (cold processed with myrosinase). I know how important it is to feel like you're doing something, that it's not all out of your control. It's frustrating that in the country where the benefit of early use of Zytiga was discovered, a man can't get it.

[16starsky in reply to Tall_Allen]

Thankyou once again for your prompt reply. I have bought some sulforaphane as well.

So the lower the PSA (is 2 classed as low started off at 310, 8 months ago. )the better, and I also know that if it starts doubling fast, that not good either. Just getting a bit ahead of myself again, but when its always on your mind,

Yes that sucks that we will probably be denied Zytiga, but will have a damn good try for it

Kim

[Bill2544 in reply to Tall_Allen]

What brand of sulforophane/myrosinase do you use? Thanks.

[curious-mind1 in reply to Tall_Allen]

Is sulforaphane used to lower PSA? Have people used it in combination with Zytiga, or is it more of an alternative option to those who can't get Zytiga? We're willing to use any and all weapons to keep my dad's PSA undetectable.

[Tall_Allen in reply to curious-mind1]

It is certainly not a replacement for Zytiga. In a small randomized clinical trial if slowed down the PSA increase relative to placebos in recurrent men:

cancerpreventionresearch.aa...

However, it may have an anti-immune effect, so it should be avoided when taking any immunotherapy:

sciencedirect.com/science/a...

I'm not a fan of anything bottled- it is not a regulated industry and we have no idea what is actually in the bottle. I sometimes buy broccoli sprouts and eat them raw in salads. (Heat destroys myrosinase)

While PSA is a good biomarker for most kinds of prostate cancer, there are some substances that are known to mask PSA (thus invalidating its use as a biomarker of progression). Curcumin, for example, may do that. Also, some rare types of prostate cancer (like ductal or neuroendocrine) never put out much PSA, so PSA is a poor biomarker for them.

[curious-mind1 in reply to Tall_Allen]

Thanks, we'll bring up sulforaphane to my dad's oncologist, Dr. Drake, next time we see him. He told us to ask questions whenever they arise, so we'll pick his brain on this as well.

[rocket09 in reply to Tall_Allen]

As in Broccomax?

[PhilipSZacarias in reply to Tall_Allen]

Hello Tall_Allen and other members following this thread, I have been taking sulforaphane for almost two years. I take the stable form of sulforaphane which is the glycosinolate, or glucoraphanin. In order to convert glucoraphanin to sulforaphane in the stomach and/or gut, an enzyme called myrosinase is required, but gut bacteria may have some limited ability to convert glycosinolate to active sulforaphane. BroccoMax (Jarrow) and Acivated Broccoli Seed Extract (Solaray) are two products that appear to be equivalent. There was a recent shortage of BroccoMax which forced me to consider alternatives to BroccoMax. I have purchased glucoraphanin (100 mg/capsule) in Canada but it does not contain myrosinase so I purchased organic brown mustard seed, ground it in a coffee grinder (impeller type) and stuffed "0" vegetable capsule with the ground product (average weight 0.25 gram). Yes, its tedious but I believe that I was able to replicate the Jarrow and Solaray products. Cheers, Phil

[16starsky]

What are the supplement's that slow down Angiogenesis. Pleasegive names and brand names that I can look for on line.

Thankyou for your info

[tom67inMA]

PSA is far more important. PSA is a proxy for the volume and activity level of the disease. It's not foolproof, but a very high PSA invariably means lots of cancer. Lowering testosterone is but one means of attacking the disease. With less T, the cancer is less active and atrophies, lowering PSA.

Many treatments, chemo for example, don't affect testosterone but can significantly lower PSA.

As for other ways to lower T, before the newer drugs were available I understand Avodart was commonly used to help fight prostate cancer. See healthunlocked.com/advanced... for a lengthy explanation.

Here's a crazy idea off the top of my head (take it with caution!): Prednisone by itself may modestly lower testosterone and is rumored to have anti-cancer effects of its own. I have no idea if these benefits are worth the significant downsides to prolonged use of steroids.

[16starsky in reply to tom67inMA]

Thank you for your reply. I now know its PSA levels kept low are the important numbers

[curious-mind1]

Nalakrats,

In your view, would adding the supplements you mention to a Zytiga/Lupron regimen increase cancer control? We're open to adding new supplements to the one my dad is already taking: resveratrol and pomegranate extract.

Arthur

[PhilipSZacarias]

See my reply to Tall_Allen re sulforaphane. Phil

[CalBear74]

If you want to lower PSA normalize cancer cells or trigger apoptosis (programmed cell death). A decline in the cancer cell population will lead to lower PSA. I have found IP-6 is capable of doing this if you go with a sufficient dose of IP-6 powder stirred in cold water and consumed when you have a completely empty stomach (two hours no food). Two doses a day. Here are some posts I have written in the past.

healthunlocked.com/advanced...

healthunlocked.com/advanced...

Don't waste your money on lycopene pills. Buy it in a natural form: tomato juice, soup, and pasta sauce:

nutritionfacts.org/video/ly...

nutritionfacts.org/video/to...

nutritionfacts.org/video/tr...

nutritionfacts.org/video/tr...

nutritionfacts.org/video/ho...

I am sorry I can't speak to availability of any products in the UK. As for your question underlying your post headline. don't worry about testosterone, kill cancer cells.

Good luck,

CalBear74

[16starsky in reply to CalBear74]

Thankyou for all your info I am going through all the links you have sent me right now.

Kim

[CalBear74]

Beg to differ Nal about lowering PSA. My first visit with my urologist after several weeks of heavy IP-6 dosing in 2015 resulted in a PSA (0.1) that my urologist in AZ expected to be more like >0.5. I was not taking any other supplements with IP-6 but that soon changed. My urologist had scorned supplements so I delayed explaining to him why the PSA was unexpectedly lower than he was predicting given typical disease progression. When I left his office he was still looking bewildered by the DRE he just insisted on for the first time since 2012; it led him to comment that I had no palpable tumors in my prostate. My Florida urologist read the notes for this session in late 2016 and gave me the Mother of All DREs. He said he would be the judge of what was palpable. He gave up finally and agreed there were no palpable tumors.

Of course, sorting out cause and effect after you add multiple supplements becomes an impossibility and that was soon my situation in 2015

[curious-mind1]

Thanks for the info, we'll check it out. Anything (that's reasoned) to keep that PSA from moving!

[CalBear74]

"...We do not really have supplements that lower PSA..."

After the experiences I have outlined above, I could never write your sentence. We both respect the scientific method. As Dr. Kerlinger wrote in his "bible" (and I was required to study/memorize at Cal, "Science is an empirical approach to knowledge; scientific knowledge is based on systematic and controlled studies of hypothetical explanations. Carefully obtained empirical evidence provides a check on unbridled assertions about the world, assertions that may or may not be true (Kerlinger, 1986)."

My meager attempt to make an assertion and be faithful to Kerlinger's dictum while extracting a "result" from my IP-6 experience essentially opened a door briefly for a glimpse at a single episode in 2015 which then involved only one variable: IP-6. Following that event, recorded in my medical chart, was a form of anecdotal empirical evidence. I refer to taking other supplements which only expanded in the fall of 2015 eliminating any possible cause-effect language being used again.

Few here are entitled to make cause-effect statements but it is happening all the time! Because this problem exists doesn't mean we aren't lowering PSA - we just can't prove it. "Results" are often cited but mean very little as a generalizable assertion unless, as Tall_Allen often reminds us, there are no supporting clinical trials. Anecdotes like mine don't count finally.

If you wonder why no clinical trial for IP-6, please read Dr. Ivana Vucenik's chapter on IP-6 and the National Cancer Institute in "Too Good to Be True" by Vanderlinden and Vucenik. She is a highly published cancer researcher (hematologist) at the University of MD. who has frequently co-authored studies with AKM Shamsuddin, MD, Ph.D.

amazon.com/IP6-Inositol-Nat...

I realize you fully understand the above. But I felt better after writing this. I hope some people will find their way to the above text and try IP-6. Have a great weekend.