Could exercise prevent prostate cancer spreading to the bones?

[dockam]

So, this may explain my lack of bone mets even though I had Stage IV, GL7, PSA - 840. New MedOnc thought it was unusual. Had done 125 marathons prior to Dx in 01/2015 and have completed 20 since. Fight On Brothers

prostatecanceruk.org/about-...

[DeanNelson]

wait...you've run 125 marathons?.....

[dockam in reply to DeanNelson]

Yea, that was my thing and despite the Stage IV Dx I wanted to still be out there and have a sign on back exhorting men to get screened, though it takes me over a couple hours longer

ocregister.com/2015/04/30/c...

blog.athlinks.com/2017/05/1...

My best to you brother

Randy

[ewhite999 in reply to dockam]

Awesome!

[DeanNelson in reply to dockam]

Wow that’s effing amazing brother...Superman

[ewhite999]

My doc recommended weight training and some cardio. Marathon ain’t gonna happen. I’ll stick with walking the golf course instead of using a cart.

[Dayatatime]

This is something I often wonder about with my own diagnosis. Mine was heavy in the nodes with high PSA and initial Urologist and Onc who diagnosed me was shocked it was not metastasized to bone. Nobody knows for sure but it could be the type of cancer, genetics, maybe even timing of diagnosis. Through a family friend I was able to talk to a retired Urologist who worked at Mount Sinai. He told me that it is possible there is a type of prostate cancer that will not go to the bone. Something to do with the cells not being able to attach to that type of tissue. There was a man that used to post on here that was a triathlete and in outstanding shape and quite sure he had bone mets. I believe he went by DollarBill. Bottom line is there might be similar cases but no 2 of us are the same and that's the thing that makes cancer as a whole very difficult to treat.

[Hidden]

Way to go! My best marathon was in Toledo OH. Perfectly flat course. My gun time was 3.:31. I was 58 at the time. Keep running, never stop.

[rococo]

I agree that sturdy bones are essential with this disease so taking a dexa bone density test every so often. My recent scan was above average of a 26 yr old and I circuit weight train with cardio and other high intensity activity and pushing 80 yrs old. Stay the course. Rocco

[Daddysdaughter]

Amazing! Randy.. 🏃 I wish i could get my dad to walk 2 blocks. Thank you for sharing. Big hugs 🤗

[dockam in reply to Daddysdaughter]

Thank you and sending positive vibes to you and Dad 💖

[lowT163 in reply to Daddysdaughter]

get him a Labrador retriever pup. Have to walk them constantly. Love mine.

[Stegosaurus37]

I was doing heavy gym workouts three times a week before dx and before they found the bone mets so not the case with me. That said, regular exercise is an essential for mental as well as physical health. I don't run because I don't want to put strain on my 76 year old knees, but I can get the same cardio effect on a bicycle without knee strain. Pick the regime that works for you and keep at it.

[Don_1213 in reply to Stegosaurus37]

Indeed. My 72 year old hips and feet won't allow me more than about 1/2 mile on the treadmill - but I can do 5 miles on the bike, and do that 3x a week while at the gym doing my muscle/bone strengthening exercise.

I'm convinced the exercise is probably the reason ADT really hasn't been troublesome for me - my side effects are really minimal, and usually I feel much better the day after a workout.

[Hirsch]

you are amazing...Do you have any distant mets? What is your age? Keep up the great

fight..

[dockam in reply to Hirsch]

I was 57 at Dx in 01/2015 and had Mets to L Ureter lymph nodes. My best to you brother! theloopnewspaper.com/story/...

[Hidden]

Very impressive. I was a cross country runner back in college, despite being 6'4" (not the usual CC type). 10K was far enough for me back then and I think I ran one more 10K in my 30's. Now, at 68, 10 minutes on the stair climber, plus a bunch of weight machines, is my speed. No bone mets yet for me and I hope to keep it that way. Do you take any supplements? Some people here swear by Vit K2 + nattokinase, and modified citrus pectin to discourage mets from landing or taking hold. I think Nalakrats had some other potions in his arsenal.

[dockam in reply to Hidden]

I'm on Metformin 2000mg/day and also on the Modified Citrus pectin. Last Lupron was on 03/31/2017 and been on a triple Casdoex to see if I can put off Lupron for a bit longer

Randy

[Hidden]

My partner was a regular gym goer 3 times a week, but when he was diagnosed, he had extensive bone mets, so my opinion is no I don't think it can.

[Litlerny]

Wowzers! That’s great! I used to run 🏃‍♂️10K’s when I was in my late 30’s-early 40’s. I drove 🚗 26.2 miles last week. Does that count? 😎

[j-o-h-n]

to dockam: I've completed many many marathons, then I wake up...

Good Luck and Good Health.

j-o-h-n Tuesday 09/18/2018 5:48 PM EDT

[charlesmeyers1964]

i've never exercise since dx 10 years ago and my psa is 28. to me early aggresive treatment is to attach it not exercising gee just think how unhappy those docs out there would be that simple exercise could cure them or make life a bit longer. just like those stupid people thinking no test for psa is a rip off i would be dead and alot more people plus i have not ever read about that a cure all dude

[GP24]

I do believe exercise does fight cancer. I know a patient how was diagnosed with a PSA of 4.818 in 2005. Gleason 9 and lots of bone mets. He does a lot of exercise every day since he takes part in Triathlon competitions. Has been on ADT for all these years now.

en.myprostate.eu/?req=user&...

[Crabcrushe in reply to GP24]

I'm convinced as well I believe 4-8 mi. ruck runs with 55 lbs. not only kept it out of my bones, but encapsulated until the stroke. Within a year with no exercise, I was pissing every 20 minutes and got changes G9/bone mets. That's why the activities curtailed by the Gorshong must be substituted as closely as possible without damaging the tube. Fine line...

Charlie

[timotur]

Hey Kam, read you story, good motivation for me as I'm a runner too. I ran track in college (400m), and since then, many 10K's and one marathon. I get in about 15-20 miles a week now, along with swim or tennis on off days. I am 64yo, just dx'd GL 7 (3+4), Stg 3b... haven't done CAT/PET tests yet, keeping my fingers crossed for no mets.

[timotur]

Sounds good Kam, but I believe I'm committed that weekend, but will look for you another race. Awesome marathon schedule-- I ran the Marine Corp in DC years ago, but heard NYC a great one. I've heard it's a lottery admission now, so you must be doing good times to get past the cutoffs. Keep it the good work...!

[timotur]

Awesome Kam! Well done for a good cause. :thumbs up

[dockam in reply to timotur]

I did the Marine Corps Marathon a few years ago also and I really enjoyed the course, crowds and esp the Marines at the end greeting the finishers!

[Jbooml]

I to had a sky high PSA but no real pain....but my question is where was all the PSA enzyme coming from..i dont have visceral involvement according to my Docs...dont know what to believe? I was told i had Mets on my upper femur only. I exercise quite a bit...hiking and swimming. I had tendon issuea starting eligard but thats go e now after a month...

[Crabcrushe]

Firm believer in that premise, here. Fixin' to find out if the PT retards/reverses metastases. Worked for Lance...

[tallguy2]

Keep on trucking, as they say. I went from marathon runner to the elliptical machine when I screwed up my back. Now 2.5 years into swimming laps. Anything to stay active physically. And a positive attitude helps. Hard to do sometimes when leakage occurs or the occasional embarrassing hot flash in public. But thankful for your post, and for every day!

[timotur]

Doc, just an update, my PSMA scan was negative for bone mets with a PSA at that time of 33 and Gl 7 (3+4), so I’m thinking there may be something to your theory of running/exercise helping to prevent bone mets. I used to average 20-25 miles running a week, now doing about 15 miles/wk due to a L5 issue, but swim or play tennis the other days. May see you in Long Beach if I can get free that weekend. Tim

[Patrick-Turner]

125 marathons is 5,250km, and because a marathon of 42km is so darn hard on anyone's body, if one was done each 2 months, that's 6 per year, so dockam might have been at it for 21 years. He says he's done 20 marathons since Pca Dx 5 years ago, so that's 4 marathons a year, and maybe he did more per year before Pca Dx in 2015. But then there's all the training between marathons to consider and at less than speed of competitive marathon. So just how much running dockam has done is not able to be accurately be worked out by the small amount of info he has given us.

Not all of us can run anywhere. Good distance runners are born with freakish genes to run effortlessly, and are very slim and with BMI 22 at most.

Their pounding of the pavement generates high amount of response to keep bone density high and keep high cartilage thickness. Not all of us have genes to allow any of that.

And when a man is put on ADT for Pca, the bones go less dense faster so basically most men just cannot maintain good bone health on ADT and with increasing age. Drugs to stop bone density loss hardly work to stop Pca going , to bones, and have horrid side effects if used too much, especially with ADT.

I could not run anywhere after 42 because of badly injuring an ankle at age 19. But I could still walk long distances at 45. I worked as a building contractor doing hard physical work to age 50. Then that became difficult due to congenital knee defects inherited from my mum who never ever ran anywhere.

But between 37 and 43 I cycled about 100,000km, and raced about 180 races as a veteran, about 30 races a year, with longest being about 100km, easier than a marathon. But my knee bothers stopped that.

Then I did little for 12 years and changed trade to electronics tech and I gained 20Kg. Then I got an arthroscopy to both knees in 2005, and began cycling again in 2006, and lost 19Kg in 6 months. I've cycled 147,000km from 2006 to now, but not in any races.

So I have 12% cardio vascular risk. I have had procession of ADT drugs and chemo and Lu177, and Pca is now under control for now, but I doubt my high exercise level for most of my life prevented or delayed me getting Pca in 2009 at age 62, with Psa 6, Gleason 9, but inoperable. My PG should have been removed in maybe 2004 when Psa was about 3, and before Gleason went up to 9.

So I was diagnosed way too late for an RP to be effective, and Pca spread had probably begun to occur, and to bones in 2009.

ADT suppressed all until 2016.

It would have been impossible for me to have had diagnosis with Psa at 840. This is a terrible high figure, and indicates that dockam did not have regular yearly Psa tests which indicate if there is a Pca problem when Psa exceeds 3.

Men who may never get Pca may have Psa of 0.7 at 40, 1.0 at 60. So how come a man suddenly finds he has Psa of 840?

Its a stroke of luck that a man with Psa of 840 has no Pca in his bones.

There would be plenty of men who exercise a lot and who find Pca goes straight to their bones regardless of how much exercise they do.

The only way of preventing Pca spread from PG is to have a successful RP op asap after diagnosis with low Gleason score and low Psa, ie, initial PG tumour < size of a pea. Many will enjoy this result and none of them have any reason to post here.

But many will have RP, but find that despite the RP, Pca continues to grow near RP site and maybe at distant sites so there's a battle that goes on for many years. I've been battling for 10 years since real bad diagnosis that was too late despite regular Psa checks for previous 10 years.

I cycle regularly because I feel well when I do, but at 72, the distance per week is slightly less than when I was 62 before diagnosis. I am slower now, but still enjoy it. I also swim a bit in summer.

Living as an independent single man means I have to do all my own housework, house maintenance, and shopping, so there's a basic activity level that keeps me heathy, without having anyone to assist, such as a wife. But of course I watched many of my mother's married friends get old, and often the man, a bit older than the woman, had to care for their younger wife with extra daily efforts because of her health problems.

Patrick Turner.

[Patrick-Turner]

Hi Dockam,

Its amazing how you are coping with Pca and your high Psa. A Psa above 100 would terrify me. But then just how much Psa is produced by a specified weight of tumour is quite variable.

At Dx in 2009, I had a lot of Pca, outside PG capsule, 9 / 9 positive biopsy samples, but Psa was only 6. The Pca had occupied all my PG and come outside it. But it had not invaded other nearby organs, and had not destroyed prostatic urethra, or nerves, so I am still continent.

So after doc opened me to perform RP, they could not proceed, and they assigned me to 2 years' ADT with 70Grey of EBRT after first 6mths of ADT.

I later found out this therapy had a 90% failure rate. One man told me he had this and it was fully successful because after 10 years he had no Pca.

But his Gleason was much lower, Psa was about the same.

Many other men might have had Psa 60+ with a Gleason 9.

Or put another way, many men might have a Gleason 5 with Psa 5 and the Pca is the size of a pea or less, and an RP is then successful and the man had no further trouble with Pca, although he may have ED, maybe some incontinence due to nerve cutting in op. The best surgeons spare all nerves, most can only spare 1/2 the nerves. For men whose RP is a success, they can get erectile devices and they keep their testosterone which seems to stop penile atrophy which is the build up of fibroids in sponge tissue preventing erection, and complete lack of feeling in head of penis which prevents orgasm by any means, and the increasing fragility of penile skin where it joins the head. Any kind of sex becomes impossible. Bone density tends to go low without testosterone as well.

But your running will counter bone density problems.

The 2 years of ADT did not give me ED, just slightly reduced appetite for pussy, no bother, but when I quit the ADT to see if therapy had worked Psa went from 0.08 to 8.0 in 6 months, so I had to re-commence ADT, and by 2015 my Rodger was completely ruined. During the pause of ADT, Rodger came back to full abilities, like I was 25 again. My cycling speed went back up +4kph and so I nearly fully recovered. But my Pca was a dreadful threat, so I accepted needing to have ADT for rest of life.

In 2016, ADT began to fail so I had added Cosadex, lasted, 6 mths, Zytiga, lasted 8 months, had salvation IMRT, 31Grey, then had 5 chemo shots, and I used to cycle 20km to get each shot and cycle home, no problem.

But chemo failed. I'd had PsMa Ga68 scans which were then thought to be better than any CT scan to see progress of my Pca in many lymph nodes and bones. I qualified to be able to buy Lu177, and went ahead with that in Nov 2018, and now have Pca "under control" with added Xtandi.

I am still cycling. Not as much as I used to, but I am now 72.

It has been a big effort to keep Pca under control for last 10 years, and I can afford the costs of continuing battle, and our Australian Medicare will help, but I doubt I last another 10 years.

But much research is continuing, some of which may produce therapies that work, and that are available here yet. That happened with Psma scans and Lu177 which were not around in 2009.

I think you ought to have PsMa Ga68 scan asap, because maybe that will show Psma avidity in mets that may justify Lu177 treatment. You could still enjoy running if you had Lu177. But if you have chemo, it is a terrible challenge to athletic performance. The PsMa scan may show mets that are small, but cannot yet be seen in CT scan. In 2016, I thought I had no mets, but PsMa scan showed 2 small ones, and a year later many more, despite continuing hormone suppression.

I can see that your BMI 20.8 allows you to run, to dance on your feet to get along fast, but for most other men their BMI rises and running becomes impossible, or would be damaging if they tried.

I enjoy the bike, and it's enough for general fitness that is better than most other men my age; there wasn't much I ever learnt from Fleetwood Mac :-).

I lost count of the number of times I was beaten in bike races by skinny men.

It did not matter, I still enjoyed the ride.

Patrick Turner.