Hi, I am wondering if anyone else struggles with their child constantly instigating and being antagonistic. We recently had to take away all technology from my middle schooler due to this. It's an ongoing battle for him. I gave him too many chances but he doesn't seem to learn. I was shocked to open his phone and see the texts that he was sending out. Not inappropriate (sexual) but definitely mean spirited and disrespectful to where he was saying negative things for a reaction, even if it was tearing down his friends for no reason at all. It was clearly making his peers feel uncomfortable but that did not stop him. I know medication is not a cure all but I def feel like it is not helping him the same. We are switching to a child psychiatrist as his current ped does not want to adjust my sons dose since he's not struggling academically. My son has never struggled academically. It has always been his impulsiveness and emotional regulation. It really makes me sad to see him be so mean to people who consider him a friend. It is stark comparison with his peers. People say this is the age where kids are testing their independence and become sarcastic with the roasting, especially with boys, but the things my son is saying are not ok. His friends even said "oh no, who invited you back into the chat?" Because he was kicked out for trash talking and instigating. Instead of seeing that and thinking he should tone it down, it does the opposite and eggs him on more. Anyone else experience this? We are taking his phone away indefinitely and he will not be on electronics all summer. I am positive that the trash talking, sarcasm and competitiveness of gaming is not helping him at all. One on one he has such a good heart, but in group settings or behind the screen, he does not control what he says or does. I guess natural consequence is letting him learn the hard way that he'll lose friends this way. Hoping that we'll be able to make progress this summer.
ADHD instigating and antagonizing - CHADD's ADHD Pare...
ADHD instigating and antagonizing
I think you’re smart to get psychiatry involved. He might benefit from improved impulsivity management and if he can’t increase the stimulant dose, there might be other options to help. Is he in therapy? I’m wondering if he is feeling bad about himself or going through a tough time. Or is bored & creating chaos as a form of stimulation? Or has he been bullied previously? Or has he ever struggled with social interactions before with peers? Sending you good wishes for help & that you’ll get answers and your son will feel better soon.
Yes, I think it wouldn't hurt to switch over to a psychiatrist especially since he's going through puberty. Who knows if that's why his medication now seems less effective. We initially started with a psychiatrist and then his ped took over because he was able to prescribe the same medication. We made the switch due to our ped being covered by insurance. Also, when he was first diagnosed, he was also put on the spectrum. He does have a lot of anxiety and ocd on top of being impulsive and extremely sensitive and reactive.
He is not bullied. He goes to a private school and I know all of his peers. They are amazing kids. He is now getting categorized with the ones who are known to be obnoxious and inappropriate. I do believe allowing him to game is a huge part of it. The trash talking and tearing each other down is really bad. There are YouTube gamers who have so many subscribers just for that reason. The kids think it's funny and then they immulate it. I think he doesn't know how to have normal conversation outside of what he likes so he says things for a reaction instead. Like you said, when he is bored, he creates chaos for stimulation. I hope I can get him the help he needs, too. He does show immediate remorse and cannot explain why he does the things he does. When he does/says things, he doesn't see past his actions/words. We are struggling to make it stick.
If he’s on the spectrum, I wonder if he’s having difficulty seeing the perspective of others until after he impulsively makes these statements or texts. He may not truly understand that his provocative comments aren’t getting the type of social attention he wants. Our son is intelligent & very verbal so we forget he doesn’t understand parts of social encounters that come naturally to people without ASD. He is getting 1:1 speech therapy focused on social/pragmatic communication. Maybe something else to consider.
I think the child psychiatrist will be helpful.
I have also noticed my own son exhibiting more of this kind of stereotypically male peer group behavior as the school year went on. It's something our excellent school does a bad job with (boys), & we're thinking of figuring out a way to drive him back and forth next year because the bus is so wild and rife with "bad models." But then we worry about the missed opportunity for social connections...
I feel you on that. In my case, I want my son to be social but at the same time I'm afraid of what might happen. For my son, he is extremely competitive. He recently got in trouble at school for yelling god damn it across the field and saying that he hated the teacher to multiple students. Mind you he goes to a private Christian school. This was all because he got called out in a PE game of kickball 🤦🏻♀️ he's also sensitive even though he does the same thing to others that he doesn't like to be done to him. His sensitivity leads to reactive/explosive behavior. We are going to eliminate any type of online interaction and gaming and see if it helps him. I am trying to teach him to have a more serving heart by helping with his siblings more. I remember you have multiples as well.
My son is is 14 now and went through a really tough phase that sounds very similar to what you are going through with your son. Over two years he was obsessed with video games and showing some very negative behaviors both to people online and as we watched him play with his brother, cousins, and friends. One game in particular became a big problem, League of Legends. As you said in your reply to Knitting20Projects, some of it is social context. Our kids see a lot of this kind of behavior on YouTube and in the media they consume so they emulate it. They also see others doing it in the games. The even larger issue that we had which lead us to therapy was that the game itself reinforces addictive, negative behavior. Many of these games are extremely immersive and highly competitive. League of Legends for those who don't know has a system that is not uncommon where if a player leaves a game early they can have their account banned temporarily or permanently. For a kid like mine this created an irresistible and inevitably conflict-ridden experience with his peers and with my wife and I as his parents. My son's personal issue was his inability to regulate his own anxiety and frustration and the reactions that lead to when playing these games. I believe he was also much more highly susceptible to the addictive nature of these games and getting caught up in the negative culture that is often part of them. Our journey is not even close to done, but as far as games go he now sees how bad they were for his relationships, but it took a lot of work to get him there. We've also banned LoL from our house and more closely monitor what kinds of games the kids are playing. Instigation and antagonism have been a struggle for us in many other parts of his life, not just video games, and he is working hard on it. For us medication was not the primary answer, although it's a tool we are using.
Yes, I agree. Having adhd makes you more susceptible to becoming an addict. You constantly seek stimulation and that dopamine kick. My son can sit hours straight from sun up to sun down playing games. Gaming culture is brutal and easy to get sucked into. I read somewhere that instigating and arguing is stimulating for someone with adhd. Unfortunately my son doesn't realize that the way people trash talk when gaming is not how you speak to people in real life. So it has spilled over into his real life relationships. We are doing a complete stop to gaming, making sure he understands that it's not gaming that's bad, it's the fact that he is too influenced by it. If we do decide to let him play, it's going to be games that don't involve online and joining. Just good old fashion Mario bros, Zelda and Pokémon games. League of legends sounds similar to Fortnite. Fortnite does not allow pause so kids are not wanting to leave their games. Every month there's a new launch or limited skin. Whoever created it, knew it was highly addictive. There's actually a lawsuit against them for this. It's crazy how people prey on these kinds to make money. We had to ban Fortnite years ago due his behavior being out of control when he played it. Thank you so much for sharing. I feel like our boys sound very similar. And I also agree, medication is not a cure all. It def helps his focus and he is able to keep his hands to himself during school. Maybe for the behaviors we are struggling with right now, we need to eliminate what's influencing it and therapy as well.
PS Not sure if he addresses these issues, but ADHD Dude (has a YouTube channel) has some excellent advice for parents about boys with ADHD. Very refreshing perspective. May be helpful.
Thank you! Awhile back I posted about my interest on his site. I never signed up but now I am going to!
I was one of those kids that was t diagnosed until late 30s because people didn’t think I had adhd because of my grades. It was only recently that I am getting on meds and it is helping me with impulsiveness and social interactions. I’ve learned to ask for direct redirections and bluntness in the workplace to help “give me an out” from digging myself further. Maybe have him talk to his close friends and see if they can come up with a code word to chill it out. I e used bubbles, and tea (tea calms me down), but then they could use it in text and it will help him stop and think.
Another idea is to teach him to type what’s on his mind and not hit send, then proof read what he wrote. Sometimes walking away and checking it again before sending it a few minutes helps me. It sounds like verbal interactions are ok? Maybe his interactions could be on the computer instead of the phone since that fees more official.
oh! Also, do some role play. Maybe have them practice what to say via text. My partner had the most trouble taking flak personally and getting angry, lashing out. It took talking to peers that said that they were playing and expected him to play back because that’s what boys do supposedly.
Great ideas! Initially when everything happened, I was so upset I just wanted to throw everything in trash. But, even if I did that, it would not change the behaviors. I like the idea of role playing and helping him through text. I realize now that reprimanding after is not working because it's not happening in the actual moment. I guess that is the challenge. Getting it stick without me being there but hopefully out of continuous habit, it will. My husband has adhd and used to struggle with the same issues. Just until he because sober. We have coaching moments before we do group family dinners on what is appropriate to talk about, not to overtake conversations, to really practice listening and responding. He still struggles but not as much and as least now he is able to sometimes catch himself when he starts to snowball. It makes him so much happier to be included and feel a part of his family. Thank you for the great ideas!
reprimanding never helped any of my family (all of us have adhd). Rewarding good behavior is generally the way to go and discussing “I observed…” with them, processing what they wanted to accomplish and what the end result was, and ask what they felt and what was going through their mind, discussing what they could do next time this happens and role playing/goal making all seem to help. Usually we find reprimanding escalates rather than processing in our home. It’s these discussions that help the kids think and practice the skills that are needed. I wish that my partner and my parents did what we are doing with our kiddos. Respect and communication seems key.
The ADHD brain seeks stimulation. It can be that unconsciously he behaves this way because it's a way of helping him function. This might naturally lessen with improved treatment of the ADHD, or it may require behaviour therapy to address it. Try to get them as physically active as you can and/or find other things that aren't screen that are stimulating... Board games (Eclipse or Agricola, not monopoly) does it for me, as do creative endeavors (though the latter can be tough to initiate)
I know ADDults who discovered that they unconsciously pick fights with their spouse when their bucket is empty. They know this isn't healthy behaviour, but it's their brain's go-to when it's understimulated. Often (though not always) when they can refill their buckets in other ways the arguments reduce or disappear.
I'm glad you're seeking help, as this is something that is best tackled with expertise and multiple perspectives. It's also something that can be extremely taxing for all involved. Make sure you call in all the supports you can, for yourself as well as your son.
Stress is very stimulating to the brain, especially one that doesn't get stimulated from doing things others do, like a brain with ADHD. Social interaction is so fundamental to us, it doesn't matter if it's positive or negative.
Your kid WANTS to be liked and popular, but because he didn't pick up on the social cues of his peers he struggles and they react to him with more signals he doesn't understand.
example:
A religious friend: "(random topic) is super evil!"
Your kid, making fast internal connections and genuinely (impulsively) asking: "Why, because it's not from God?"
To Neurotypicals, questions have meanings upon meanings. To them, the interaction would indicate he's opposed to the topic because he questioned the topic's authenticity, which means he doesn't like that person because he doesn't like that associated topic.
Which isn't true for ADHD folks, since we tend to take these things at face value.
If you think I'm going on a tangent, I am. But it's all about to make sense.
These interactions are met with awkward stares and passive actions that send a message, but prevent him from addressing them (like excluding someone or not talking with the same enthusiasm). They DON'T tell him where he went wrong. So, he doesn't learn to fix it.
This makes him more assertive, causes him to favor reactions he unequivocally DOES understand even if they are negative. It is way easier for a child with ADHD to just be told how it is rather than being left to read between lines.
He would rather be called names and directly insulted and isolated for actions he knows he caused, rather than deal with the stress of wondering where he went wrong and why his peers are treating him differently than the rest.
I know this because I lived it. It was way less stressful, more meaningful to just be the bad guy. At least then I knew WHY it was all happening, and didn't ask myself where it all spiraled despite efforts to be a friend and landing on "I just wasn't good enough to be with the rest of them."
This is NOT predominantly an impulse issue. This is a lack of social skills and a need for clear cut interaction. Now, he may have missed the cues needed to fit in on his own but here's alist if 5 main things you can try!
Understand his social behavior
Try to get a grip on what's important to him in a positive interaction. Your his mom! This one will be easy 
>It may be strange jokes
>Rambling about experiences
>Asking personal questions (there's not a lot of lines between mother and son, so it might be hard to notice, but he may ask his peers things that are also considered personal)
>physical gestures
>It could be a bunch of things!
Reward the behaviors after allowing him to learn what others value in interactions
Once you have a good understanding, it's important to show him (in a non-confrontational way) what good social behavior looks like.
>make upset, exaggerated faces when he commits a taboo, like interrupts, and calmly/curtly tell him why you're upset without lingering. Make pleasant smiles and gestures when he is minding manners. (what makes this non-confrontational is that it is situational, and not brought up from past mistakes).
>emulate what he does, negative and positive things (not exaggerated, you don't want him to think you are mocking him or even let him catch on at first). If he tries to steer you away from the behavior, ask him why and give him an example of his own behavior, but don't make him think you were punishing his behavior, simply allow him to reflect by asking "why can't I do it too?" "does that feel really fair to me?"
>readily accept any and all apologies or attempts of recourse for small things, move on from them as if they never happened. This might seem counter-productive, but this actually ensures a better learning experience by reducing social stress and not forcing his brain to linger on negatives, missing more possitves. It gives him a better idea of what to avoid.
>thank him for allowing you to speak uninterrupted, for his input, for his attention, and for the happy emotions and value he added to the conversation... But maybe word it differently lol.
>move on from corrections quickly; do not drag them out or go into lengthy explanations. He will learn best if he is provided with many small examples in various contexts and not a big, long one for lots of contexts.
Play pretend (for younger kids)
Let him tell you about his day, each day, with examples of his social life. Maybe you can get into the habit of acting them out! Act out what happened, what COULD have happened, and act out what tomorrow could be like.
Pretned to be him, pretend to be his classmate, the teacher, the counselor, the wizard that was there too, be everybody! Social interaction has a place in our brain that isn't exclusive to reality. A fake interaction is just as valuable as a real one, if not more so because now he can learn in an environment that is willing to "start over" as many times as he needs without consequence.
Stay positive
No really, that's the most important part. The goal is to get him on board with good interaction, not force bad ones like he's doing with his peers.
>do NOT judge him for actions he shared with you. This will prevent him from sharing in these future and curb his social learning further
>take a break of he gets upset
>don't reward tantrums or controlling behaviors
>make quick/clear descriptions of what you want in the situation
>don't say "you did this." Try using "I want you to try this" and respond to "I did!" with "I think I missed it, and I want to see you try it again" and never "no you didn't" because even though you're right, it's best to let him come to the conclusion of wrongdoing on his own.
>apologize too, even if you think you shouldn't apologize. He may be feeling the same things. Set an example and he's sure to follow. Forcing an apology for children of any kind only leads to more sour feelings.
Like with many other things, stay consistent
Allow him the space to share interactions he had throughout the day. Don't get mad at him for them, but ask him questions like "and what did she do after that?" "what did the teacher say?" "was there something you could have said differently?" "was he upset? Why do you think that is?"
Be his mirror with good flattering lighting to bounce off of and DON'T react harshly to his tellings. He deals with enough harsh interaction as it stands, so it won't be productive.
Ask if you can add input by gently saying things like "you know what I would have done?" "can I make a suggestion for the future?"
And don't be upset if he isn't responsive or doesn't want to know. Don't hold him to them by asking if he did the things you suggested or why he hadn't. Ultimately... It is up to him.
Let him come to you, and just share the outcome with him rather then inserting your own emotions.
I hope this helps.
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