- Taking bio identical hormones via Louise Newson to gp & now from the nhs, & my sub clinical thyroid numbers (& after years of taking levothyroxine doses without conversion improvement or drop in tsh). On taking hrt i went from TSH 5 to 1.1!!! In a very short time
I have been amazed and delighted although T3 is still under half way mark I feel improved generally
🤔I can't help wondering how levothyroxine has helped me if at all? Is it bad for me? Do I need it?
Can I possibly wean down from 125? Can thyroid be ok in this scenario?
Hate the thought of taking it forever it's obviously become sub clinical due to the sex hormones dropping over the years, I went through the net of only being offered anti depressants for my horrid symptoms
has anybody been down this road please and reduced their Levo right down ?
Also, is selenium 200 still recommended please?
thanks a lot
best wishes 🦋
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Jeppy
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200ug selenium is recommended for those with active Thyroid Eye Disease, otherwise 100ug is sufficient. Dosages in excess of 400ug daily can be toxic. Brazil nuts contain 50-90ug each, depending on soil type.
Many members who take HRT report needing slightly more thyroid medication, but I actually found I needed a slight decrease.
I recommend you test and share FT4 and FT3 levels alongside TSH to allow members to comment fully on your thyroid health.
My area still refuse to test t3 sadly I can't keep up private testing but did one in Nov which showed t3 still under halfway but tsh had dropped dramatically strange really
I just hate taking Levo I've never improved on it at best it stopped me being tearful in early days but it never caused t3 to increase
I don't quite understand... if your TSH was 5 when you started HRT you were under replaced with levo so would still have been very hypo... HRT is wonderful stuff 😏
I was in the era our doctors said 'we don't treat it with hrt'. Scaremongering the clot and breast cancers.
I know I've been not a typical hypo person I feel it was purely from the reducing istregen progesterone to totesterone that took my thyroid levels down but even though I then took Levo up to 125 my tsh hardly budged and I was classed as a poor converter This is why I'd love to reduce it down to see how I go
I'd get a full thyroid panel first to see where you are, with a TSH of 1.1 it would suggest you aren't far off the right dose and if you finally feel well I wouldn't be looking to make any big changes
It's about balancing out all the hormones to get a smooth ride... the trouble is in the NHS that means different departments and no joined up thinking 😕
I've just received an ENDO appointment after a gap of 3 yrs!!! Always cancelled but can't be bothered now. I was told by them 'there is only one hormone' meaning Levo t4
My Endo (name removed by admin) is fantastic, he believes that many of us need T3. I found his details along with other “Real Endocrinologists” (as apposed to closed off, indoctrinated TEXT book type Doctors) on a list I obtained from Thyroid UK.
He explained that you really have to search about to find the likes of him, keep digging around, your sanity is at stake!
Good luck 😉 🤞 ❤️
P.s. Let’s face it, it’s ridiculous that anyone of us could command an Endocrinologist consultants salary just by staying safe and going by a text book, it takes a Real Specialist in their field to think outside of the box to get the results needed!
I did opposite, prescribed HRT first for 18 months. I described it as a 5% improvement in my overall symptoms.
Then started on NDT, still titrating but since my last dose increase I am sleeping 7-8h per night. It’s been over 6 years of chronic insomnia this is a big deal. I’m getting less breast pain too. Mental health has improved. Started a weekly gentle exercise class.
On this combination of 2x hormone replacements, I feel that my hormones are better balanced than when I was on HRT alone.
I’m 49 now so I assume so. I went on HRT to ‘rule out’ menopause as the cause of all my symptoms. Like I said there was a little improvement but it wasn’t the cause. Neither was anaemia. The NHS couldn’t help me try thyroid meds. In the end I went private.
While I’ve been slowly increasing NDT I had some hot flashes before Christmas but with my dose increase to 1 grain they’ve stopped. I haven’t changed the HRT, I’m still on the starter dose.
Three weeks of good night’s sleep, it’s a miracle!
Doesn't it emphasise how the hormones relate to each other and is initiated by reducing female hormones
Maybe with adequate hrt your thyroid hormones would be ok but there's also to consider as we get older things slow down so seems a good balance of each to set you up 👍🏼
When I started HRT (estradiol patch 2x/week) the pharmacist warned, "This will suck up your thyroid hormone. Do not stick the patch on at the same time you take your thyroid hormone."
The pharmacist also suggested that the estrogen replacement would result in a need for more thyroid hormone.
By now, I think there's general agreement that everyone is different, but some of us share common differences. One cannot always predict outcomes, but some outcomes are predictable. Some causes cannot be understood while others are quite clear.
Hi Jeppy. Firstly, I am so glad your symptoms have improved!
I, too, am wondering whether I need to be on Levo. My symptoms started approx 20 years ago during the HRT scares, I was offered anti-depressants which I refused and struggled on.
Fast-forward until approx 2 years ago. My TSH was 10 and I learned that I had been sub-clinical for many years. I foolishly thought Levo would give me my life back - mystery solved!
It made me feel worse, and one GP suggested low-dose HRT (I stopped the Levo whilst awaiting an endocrinologist appt). To my surprise, the HRT relieved all symptoms. I had never felt so good for years!
Unfortunately, I developed uterine polyps and my gynaecologists scared me off HRT due to my age - I'm 69.
Back to square one. I'm on a lower dose of Levo. which has reduced my TSH but not relieved symptoms and not touched my T4 which has always been at the higher end of the normal range anyway!! I'm convinced I don't need it.
I have asked how reducing TSH can reduce symptoms without increasing T4 - which doesn't need improving anyway, but can't get a sensible answer.
I'm not knowledgeable enough to advise, but your GP may suggest reducing your Levo if you think you don't need it and then you could monitor symptoms.
Hi. My question all this time, as I have good t4 without Levo🤔 ( or I did rather , as wouldn't know now)?
We have followed same path, hello 😊 I'm sorry about polyps is there evidence that hrt causes these? Is he being over cautious, are they common also when not taking hrt but have natural hormone levels🤔
It's frustrating we don't know answers. Yes my doctor said I could reduce a little I was wondering about the T3 side if things- do you know where yours is up to? mine hardly ever changes and is under halfway and that's with tiny levo bigger Levo and HRT, so is there another piece to this jigsaw that improves it And I'm sure keeping up with the vitamins is important. somebody wants mentioned growth hormones, which I know nothing about and I know with my Endo experience I would get no further with this
Hi Jeppy,I had an appointment with the GP yesterday to discuss things as my symptoms have come back with a vengeance since stopping HRT about 6 months ago, and going back on a reduced amount of Levo (25 mg).
My TSH has reduced to 2.2 but both T3 and T4 have remained at the high end of normal.
I'm convinced I don't need Levo as I felt well when I was off it and taking HRT. I'm convinced these are symptoms of female hormone deficiency and it's bad luck that I am 70 this year and still suffering with them! I would gave expected them to be long gone!
I was diagnosed with uterine polyps and a thickened womb lining last July. It was scary as cancer was considered to be a possibility at the time and everything moved very quickly so it was scary. Thankfully they were benign but the gynaecologist told me, quite sharply, before the op that 'nobody over 60 should be on HRT, despite its good publicity at the moment'. It frightened me off.
There was no follow-up appt with gyno and the GP thinks it is difficult to say whether the polyps were caused by HRT although oestrogen can cause a thickened womb lining.
I feel between a rock and a hard place 🤦♀️ but I def don't think I need the Levo. I have an appt to discuss the Levo on 22nd Feb so will discuss coming off it. I never get any answers about my T3 and T4 being good 😕
I don't want to scare you about HRT - it was my age that was the issue there.
I hope you continue to feel well Jeppy. Please keep us posted x
Levo 25 would be no use I'm sure it's said 50 is a starting dose
Same age same scenario I agree it's the female hormones causing it, I had smaller amount of symptoms after a birth but of course things balanced out again naturally
It's the progesterone that keeps womb thin I take a tablet every night I intend to pay for a womb scan to monitor as nhs won't !! So glad u ok If you have no womb no need I considered having a hysterectomy tbh that's how bad it got. When I think of the yrs I carried 'spare clothes' around in case flooded!! I should have pushed for one in hindsight
Are you sure you want to stop Hrt have you looked at pioneer Louise Newson site it may help I urge you do so. It's bio identical . I got mine via her site and one zoom appointment then they tell your gp to prescribe. And they do. I also got totestetone which is overlooked. There's a video on it on her site I'm in process of asking gp for this after I bought a trial
Maybe a tint bit will cure all ins.
This may be the key? It's very overlooked and part of a woman's make up as well. Gp only gives it to males on nhs!! I've just written to mine how unfair this is can she help! But she will if Newsons ask her!?? Or il need to spend another 200 for a zoom to get it prescribed
Do listen to little video please as it's the hormone that gives us more muscle mass and lifts low mood! ? Interestingly I never got 'whiskers' this shows me I'm low on it ( other members of family females all got whiskers but didn't have low mood etc) and a little tweak can do wonders It can easily be monitored I put a dab on shoulder daily Tiny
I saw prof Studf in London in 2017 he set me off on bio hrt but he made you have a monthly to keep womb thin nit fur me!
Now it's bio identical the same gel but progesterone daily to keep womb thin
Did you say you had patch - the progesterone in patch isn't micro what's it That's what put me off the patch
Sorry to be lengthy
So if your T4 and T3 are good you should feel good🤔? So missing link is female ones I'd have thiught
It's so hard if an 'expert' gives off putting opinion. Prof Studf since passed away has menopausal clinic London. He was adamant most if us need it I'm not trying to persuade but he's a Professor
For me I want to slow down aging conditions like hunching over, weak bones weak muscle etc so happy to take bio forms for a good while anyway. It's quality. I know muscle mass was low I broke wrist at 65.
I know.....it's so frustrating. I'm sure it does a lot of good but my experience has left an effect. I believe it's a lot safer if started before the age of 60. I didn't start it til I was 68. I am rethinking it though. It is so difficult to research due to the lack of research on older women. I am glad it is working for you though Jeppy. I hope you continue to feel well. x
all I know is now I can be more motivated and focused. I was a shadow of myself for two decades! I'm on lowest dose due to my age but here we are, Newson has 'older aged mention' I had the zoom appointment to find women in their 70s/8Os starting it too Prof Studf said this too, if it helps go for it and of course, look after yourself in the ways we've learnt
It's sad we are guinea pigs in a way for older but for me, what's the alternative I have energy to be a better gran 😉😊
We need to make decisions based on the ones who have researched more sometimes I find nhs so far behind it's sad as takes yrs to change things
If thyroid hormones are needed there's no questions but not the same when female hormones reduce🤔 why is this the symptoms are dreadful. It's amazing they can make such a body identical I'm glad I didn't take the horse wee etc.
I don't understand how he thought hyper without bloods taken. I think at menopause initially my weight just dropped off I wasn't big then, I'm convinced I'd swung hyper this hashi swing thing. It settled back as hypo ( sadly lol).
We know these things we lived them In just learned you can't take every doctors word as gospel sadly
Hi Jeppy,Your experience sounds so similar to mine.
The HRT I was on was body- identical (GP wasn't in favour of bio identical ones).
I was on an Everol patch for oestrogen (smallest dose) and a daily capsule for progesterone- 100mcg.
GP was great - the first in 20 years to suggest my symptoms were menopausal. I had been repeatedly told to exercise more!! (I am not overweight 🤦♀️)and offered antidepressants which I refused. GP said the HRT was smallest dose and the safest, being body identical, and the oestrogen being a patch.
I was a little scared of it but willing to give anything a go.
Wow- I was amazed at how well it worked. I felt like I'd sleep walked through the last couple of decades and woken up again!
Then, 8 months later, I experienced severe bloating.and a spaced-out feeling which was followed by bleeding which led to my diagnosis.
I don't know whether HRT was the cause, but I hadn't had any problems before and apparently HRT can cause polyps and thickened womb. That, together with the gyno's warning has left me scared of it generally, unfortunately. I think if I went back on it, I would be worried.
GP is willing to prescribe again, but appears unwilling to advise, saying that I need to decide.
So difficult when so few studies have been done on older women.
Re the Levo. I was on 50 mg but felt worse and endocrinologist felt I may have become hyper (no measures taken but I had agreed with GP to come off it and try HRT). I went back on it but a lower dose when symptoms returned. Symptoms remain and neither dose increased T3 or T4 - which don't need increasing anyway! Confused 🤔
I am so glad things are better for you Jeppy, and that they continue to be. Thank you for the info re Louise Newsome. I have heard of her, but became so scared of HRT I had pretty much given up on it, but I will have a rethink.
Thank you Eeyore. It is practically impossible though when there are no conclusive results from studies on older women as so few have been done.Apart from very mild hypothyroidism and menopausal symptoms I am blessed with really good health so my experience last was traumatic.
I know that at my age I can expect to get some sort of illness but I don't think I could cope with the possibility that I could have avoided it by not taking HRT. I feel I would be wondering what awful thing might be about to occur if I took it again. The gyno's words 'despite its recent good publicity' has lodged in my brain. It was a female, young (late 30s prob) gyno, not someone out of touch, I wouldn't have thought.
Decisions, decisions.....
I'm a bit dubious about Louise Newsome as she is making money from hyping up HRT. I'm not suggesting she is not genuine but it does make me cautious. I appreciate what you are saying though - thanks again.
I can only think what I would do if in same situation. We both were hoodwinked partly in our 2 decades I feel quite let down.
the scare was the occasional clot which was caused by the Oral hrt because it went through the liver! It wasn't caused by patch or gel
Progesterone should be micronised type this is why I didn't like the patch as it wasn't micronised ( was your separate progesterone? )
Maybe look into what causes polyps, is it a link to the oral tablet way of thinking ?
I know it's daunting like Eeyor says, good to list pros and cons it took me ages to convert but very reassured by Prof Studd in top London clinic - Your gp sounds fab I hit lucky in my new area as mine sent me Louise Newson Balance sheet!
Knowledge is the answer I'd check polyps causes we have many changes in our body that cause lots - I wonder if they started earlier on
Please write anytime I'd love to know how you go
Look at totesterone video see if it's speaking to you? That alone may help
If you retry hrt pls get the Louise Newson variety Can't we get womb checked periodically if your womb thickened do you think the wrong progesterone didn't help? X
Hi JeppyYes, the progesterone was micronised. The GP was obviously really close-up and I felt 20 years younger.
I guess it's impossible to be sure about the polyps but they can be caused by oestrogen, as can thickened womb lining, and I never had problems before.
It has made me anxious about going back on it. It's probably unfounded anxiety but I think 'thank goodness it was something that was treatable and not life-threatening as they first thought'. I think if I was back on it I would be worrying if it was doing something else to my body. Getting ill is one thing but I couldn't cope with the fact that I could have avoided it, if that makes sense.
The young (late 30s-ish), female gynos words 'despite its recent good publicity' are lodged in my brain. Apparently its safer if you start to take it before 60 - which I didn't as I wasn't diagnosed or offered it.
Sorry for being so negative - it's just my personal anxiety, I'm not anti HRT by any means and am so glad you feel better.
Thank you. I'd be inclined to ask gyno for his links on hrt and polyps. No harm. I used to take everything as gospel. But learned slowly they are not all correct
Hi. I sadly had no follow-up with her (youngish female).I have researched though but its impossible to draw conclusions as so little done on older women and none done exclusively on women who start HRT after the age of 60 - when some research shows that the risks start to outweigh the benefits 🙁
You have given me food for thought though. Thank you x
🤔what was your tsh when felt good with hrt do you know? And taking no Levo or was it for very short time on reducing Levo? Did you just stop cold turkey? I ask as read a few times if we just stop you can actually get a well feeling for a while which is confusing - this is with other drugs as well I believe maybe some of it is physiological too 🤔
How much Levo do you take, as a low dose can make you feel worse sometimes ? I'm not knowledgable just read these here.
I'm with you all the way my t4 was at very top but tsh still 3.7 and t3 under half so not converting, and taking supps too?
I felt awful when started Levo but worked through 3 brands which I then settled on accord but maybe my body had been forced to get used to it🤔? 🤷♀️
I've read it's not all about the Tsh anyway once taking Levo which I wholeheartedly agree with as why be compared to a person who doesn't take Levo ? Tsh indicates you're running low before you are medicated doesn't it
Happy to PM please 😊You are the first I feel has so similar story
......if anybody knows please, what is 'activis' brand under now as had probs at chemist
And Where can I get kosher T3 please as I ordered some it came tied together with elastic bands and was bigger in size to what a member had so I didn't try !
What's your T3 doing🤔 after all to me this is where wellbeing sits
I feel I was hypo through life and hadn't the foggiest which is hardly surprising as gp still has range up to 4.6 no action, Nirmal!🤷♀️ how can this be when ENDO stimulate to be under 2!?
Hi again JeppyI did type a reply but battery went and it seems to have got lost. Apologies if it is here somewhere and I'm repeating myself.
Yes, I came off Levo cold turkey after feeling very jittery, more severe palpitations and anxious.
Before Levo, I could hide my symptoms to the outside world for a while and recover at home- although that always felt like payback time
On Levo, I couldn't. I hadn't been anxious before taking it and felt better - but not well- off it.
I started HRT approx 3 months later. I don't know what my TSH was but assume it had crept back up. I am convinced my symptoms are menopausal as the HRT improved them so much when I hadn't even been that hopeful and also because of my normal T4 and T3.
I know that TSH is often high before T4 becomes low - but my TSH had been high for over 20 years, with T4 at the upper end of the normal range all that time, as was T3 on the few occasions it was measured. Levo hasn't affected them.
I am rethinking HRT at the mo.
It has been so interesting to hear of your similar experience Jeppy and hope things keep getting better for you.
know that TSH is often high before T4 becomes low - but my TSH had been high for over 20 years, with T4 at the upper end of the normal range all that time, as was T3 on the few occasions it was measured. Levo hasn't affected them.
Yipee my tech worked lol
Me too! Always good T4 with it without Levo
I've no doubt perimenopause sent me down this root I was a well and busy mum for 15 yrs before I never saw a doc!
Worst thing is I began to think I was fruit & nut as my fam are quite judgy we should have had more care but we were programmed to 'go through it best you can' Get to the other side! The other side for me was 3 extra stones, flabby dimply arms, fatigue, procrastination .....I can go on
I feel your pain! I was always considered underweight, despite the fact I ate well, so my weight gain has (just!) kept me in the normal range, but sweating (I was the world's coldest person before), flushing, palpitations, 'flat' mood, waking exhausted, lethargy, lack of motivation and focus, procrastination.....aaaargh!!!
I'm just going to be a pedant here and correct your terminology because it's important. It can confuse if we mix up the 2 terms.
You are taking body identical HRT. Instigated by the Newson Clinic and continued by your GP on the NHS.
Bio-identical HRT is different and is put together in a compounding pharmacy to a specific prescription so it can vary more widely but also it's not regulated and monitored in the same way.
Bio-identical hormones are expensive and only available privately. Body identical hormones are regulated and available on the NHS. I've used both in my time. Body identical are much better for me.
Bio-identical hormones are hard to find in the UK unless at a private clinic. But they seem to prevail in America. As this forum has a lot of Americans using it, it pays to be specific.
You should not make changes to your Levo because you feel better on HRT. Be thankful you feel better. Both hormone types work together. You finally have what you need to feel well again.
I was lucky around 9 years ago, to have a couple of appointments with Dr Peatfield. He was so lovely. Such a loss to the thyroid world. He said to me that around 70% of his patients (all thyroid and adrenal) had suffered from glandular fever in the past and that this was a higher percentage than the population at large.
Perhaps that horrible glandular illness damages our glands or sets them up to be prone to attack by autoimmune disease. I've never seen it referenced anywhere else before. But it stuck with me. I was very poorly with GF. I got hepatitis at the same time and could not give blood for years.
Basically it's a horrible virus that comes out of nowhere and affects us for the rest of our lives. Or it can do. Great! It really is past the time they needed to improve antiviral medications and make them available to everyone.
Micronised applies to the progesterone Utrogestan. I've not heard it used to refer to oestrogen. It could be the same. But it's a term usually seen in conjunction with the product Utrogestan.
hi, my tsh went down when I started hrt too and I felt much better. It’s been 18th months now and it slowly crept up again and I had to increase levo. I still feel much much better on the hrt and many of my “hypo” symptoms improved
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