The use of thyroid hormone liothyronine in patients with heart failure - Another Pearce-linked Trial

[helvella]

Fascinating seeing these words in the context of a medical trial:

The use of thyroid hormone liothyronine in patients with heart failure

Liothyronine (T3) is a safe tablet and has few side effects because it is a synthetic version of triiodothyronine, a naturally occurring hormone produced by the thyroid gland. The side effects of this medicine usually only occur from excessive dosing.

bepartofresearch.nihr.ac.uk...

Obviously, I've only taken a tiny quote and it now appears out of context.

The trial itself appears considerably more interesting than the OPAL (get off levothyroxine) trail discussed in this other post:

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

Have edited title of post as Pearce is not prime contact - just the study comes under Newcastle.

[Forestgarden]

🤔 here's a thought. Lets identify those at risk of heart failure in advance, and give them some lio then we might save millions! "the average costs of HF in the UK are estimated at €26 million per million population". Now, how could we possibly identify some of those people 🤔 (sarcasm)

[humanbean]

Can the hypocrisy be more obvious? I thought SP was one of the doctors who claimed T3 did nothing and was not useful for anyone, but apparently has colleagues who have different ideas.

I notice the Contact for this research is based in Newcastle University.

This link has a few more details about the study :

isrctn.com/ISRCTN10706683

[Forestgarden in reply to humanbean]

"Who can participate?Patients aged between 18 – 80 years old with moderate to severe HFrEF (EF <45%), not on any medications affecting thyroid function and who have low serum T3 levels (< 3.5 pmol/L)" 🤣

[tattybogle]

"Dear Simon, if i volunteer for OPAL and it gives me Heart Failure .. THEN can i have some T3 ? "

[SarahJane1471 in reply to tattybogle]

👏👏🤣

[arTistapple]

This is being done by Dr. Salman Razvi. I am trying to get him as my endo as I have known for sometime he is interested in effects of thyroid hormones on the heart. Dr. Razvi works in Tyne and Wear. Difficult relationship I would imagine with Pearce. He has previously completed research in the heart and T3. Both he and Dr. Peter Taylor seem to be bypassing Professor Pearce’s famous overbearing objections to T3. This research is being done in Newcastle. Unfortunately being on levo I won’t be eligible. I have higher hopes about this guy than anyone else in this area of heart issues and thyroid hormones. As far as I am aware he is the only endo/researcher doing this work in the UK. Pearce is probably mentioned because of ‘politics’.

People like me really need this research to be done.

10 mcg would be too high a dose for me. If I ever see him I will tell him!

I wonder if I still might be around to benefit eventually from his research?

Gosh what a day for this stuff!

[RedApple in reply to arTistapple]

Dr. Salman Razvi is also an editor of this book:

Thyroid and Heart: A Comprehensive Translational Essay amazon.co.uk/Thyroid-Heart-...

[RedApple in reply to RedApple]

Thyroid and Heart book cover

Thyroid and Heart book cover

[arTistapple in reply to RedApple]

Oooh too expensive for me. I will see if I can procure a second hand volume! Thank you RedApple.

[RedApple in reply to arTistapple]

I think that book is the updated version of this one, which is more affordable as a used copy, if it wasn't for the postage from USA! Thyroid and Heart Failure amazon.co.uk/Thyroid-Heart-...

[Wua13262348 in reply to arTistapple]

Gatesheadhealth.nhs.uk site lists Dr.Razvi as a Consultant Endocrinologist in Clinical Support Services in QE Hospital, Gateshead, with a speciality of Endocrinology with a special interest in thyroid diseases.

Has he moved to research only or something that you are finding it difficult to get him as your endo? On paper , he looks to be someone well worth consulting for thyroid, which is his specialty. The cardiovascular aspect is the icing on the cake for you. He looks perfect for you to have as your consultant. You say you are trying to get him as your consultant. Why isn't this happening? Is Birkie not in the Newcastle area too? She is also desperate for a competent NHS Endo.

[LindaC in reply to Wua13262348]

I recently gave a copy of the wonderful T3 and the Heart posted by Dippy Dame to a Cardiologist. He was the first one who ever mentioned 'thyroid' to me way back in summer of 2007, when I'd had palpitations from 2003. Time they Joined the Dots for [some] Patients to Win a Major Prize, eh?

[arTistapple in reply to Wua13262348]

It’s getting the referral from the GP that is the problem AND getting the specialist you want. I refuse to be referred again to Pearce. He had his chance and refused to see me. Razvi still works in the QE and I am told by his secretary his waiting list is not all that long. I had an issue with my private endo who got rid of me fast when I had a ‘heart’ reaction to T3. It’s taken me a year to think this through and find a strategy. I realised the private endo (trained by you might guess who) needed cardio back up. Difficult to do privately. Cardio privately is hugely expensive and out of my league. So I thought before I get another endo appointment I must get an up to date diagnosis for my heart, as I have had the condition for about twenty five years. Another case of they did not know what to do with me so I eventually just saw to myself, as the drug regime was difficult, expensive and doing nothing to relieve my symptoms - and I did not have CHD, which is effectively what I was being treated for! I stopped it and stayed away mostly from Gp. So at the moment waiting for result of cardio referral before ‘someone’ will allow me to see Razvi! I am going to chase it up today. Your reply has chivvied me along!

I originally became aware of Razvi through the forum. Some kind person had seen an article in the Daily Fail and posted about it. Forum working well, keeping us all informed.

I think birkie is in Cumbria but yes it’s probably the same endos who look after her area. Oh God, she is having such trouble. I am always ranting about the ‘leader’ endo here on the forum. If I stop to think, it’s terrifying being here and needing endo support. The ‘leaders’ tentacles are long and his influence is powerful. He disgusts me. I have my own ideas how Razvi manages to work here and do some good but …….

Thank you again for chivvying me along!

[Wua13262348 in reply to arTistapple]

I think you have to emphasise to your G.P. re. your Endo referral that it must be Dr. Razvi you are referred to as he also has an interest in, and is participating in, research trials where thyroid and heart overlap. His speciality is thyroid.

Where a cardio referral is concerned- you could find out if there is a cardiologist in your area involved in the trial that Dr. Razvi is conducting re.T3 for heart failure, not on thyroid hormone medication. He may be a good candidate for you. Good news that Dr. Razvi's waiting list is not that long!

Hope it works out well for you.

[arTistapple in reply to Wua13262348]

Right a couple of very interesting suggestions there Wua. I will follow them up.

[arTistapple in reply to Wua13262348]

Wua I have done two things. I have been able to contact the very team who are doing this research and very helpful (so far) they were. Quite a different attitude to my GPs who seem to be flailing about. Although I cant get on the research because I am already taking levothyroxine, the person I spoke to is going to speak to the ‘leader’ and see what can be done - no promises off course but I feel better just getting this far. They would not say which cardiologist was doing the research with the leader but I know my cardio referral has gone to the main ‘heart’ hospital, to someone (or sidekick of) who deals with my specific problem, where I am hoping to get my diagnosis updated. The research person said I would definitely need cardio support. I speak to cardio tomorrow, to ensure I have been referred to the correct department and to find out how long the waiting list is. Why I had to work this out myself re: cardio support goodness knows! Somebody (my Gp) could have worked this out when I was finally diagnosed hypo. Where are their little grey cells?Crikey I am a bit over excited. Not a good sign necessarily for me. Calm down arTistapple.

[Meno56]

Surely the most obvious conclusion from the statements made, is that low T3 levels can result in heart failure, if the reverse is true. Therefore if conversion in Hypothyroid patients is poor, then T3 can alleviate future problems related to Heart Failure (HF)

Maybe we need to invite Dr Salman Razvi to champion the cause for widespread T3 prescriptions. He could do for Hypothyroidism what Dr Louise Newson has done for Menopause!

[jgelliss]

Thank you so so much helvella for this Amazing Out Standing post. I think many of us thyroid patients pretty much were aware of this findings. Personally for me T3 is crucial for my palpitations and I'msure many have made this discovery too. But no Dr/Endo connect the dots even today. Shamefully. I hope helvella with your Great posts either Dr's will read it or members of our Great forum will alert Dr's with this Great information. Thank you.

[Wua13262348]

Interesting that NHS Lanarkshire Endocrinology is anti T3 and will not prescribe, but my sister's mother-in-law, who died a few years ago, was on thyroid medication from her cardiologist for her heart. My sister is not aware of her having had a thyroid problem. It must have been T3 her cardiologist gave her. She died just short of her 100th birthday!

The ethics approval for Dr. Razvi's trial is from South Central-Berkshire B in Nottingham.

Yesterday, when looking at the ethics approval for Dr. Pierce's study , which was West of Scotland, Dykebar Hospital, Glasgow, it appeared that the West of Scotland was dealing with the whole of the UK. This then made it unremarkable that his study was a Newcastle one, as it looked as if UK applications were dealt with from here.

Dr.Razvi's approval comes with an ethics approval from Nottingham.