Carnivorous diet

[olgadimitri]

Hello. I have a question. Now is a lot of information on the Internet around the diet, Carnivorous. Many claim this diet alleviates autoimmune symptoms, fibromalgia, brain fog, boosts energy... Please tell me if someone with Hashimoto practiced this diet, does it really help or is it just a new fashionable trend

[Hidden]

Olgadimitri,

I posted this on a different thread to the same Q . I rue the day I ever came across the Petersons and “their” diet. Of all the things I have done for my health - and there have been a LOT - Carnivore takes the cake (no pun intended 😂) for the worst decision of them all.

I did the carnivore diet for 18 months out of desperation and I fully attribute my adrenal insufficiency to the diet. I would never ever suggest anyone do it, especially if you are hypo.

Carnivore reduces systemic inflammation, that’s its panacea and the reason for its popularity. But it does this at quite an expense of the rest of the body long term. I’ve laid out some mechanisms of action to explain why I don’t think it’s a good idea.

Firstly, lowered blood glucose levels down regulates the conversion of T4 to T3, because glucose is required for conversion we end up making more rt3 and less T3. Ketosis is essentially a hypometabolic state, because our primary and preferred fuel source is glucose when we deprive it of that it will respond by increasing conversion of T4 to rT3 instead of T3 to slow our metabolism down, which is not what we want. Ketosis is like a back up generator that the body uses in times of scarcity so metabolism is down regulated in accordance with that, it’s starvation mode (for want of a better term.)

Secondly, in the absence of dietary glucose the adrenals will have to work extra hard to maintain both blood and cellular glucose levels (which is one of its most important jobs). Without optimal cortisol levels we are not going to be able to make sufficient ATP because glucose is essential in the creation of ATP, this is further compounded by the lowering of T3 because T3 is also essential in the creation of ATP. So there is a double whammy there is lowered energy production coming from both of our most important metabolic partners. Gluconeogensis (making sugar out of protein for specialized tissues that can only run on glucose like brain cells, eye cells, muscle cells for instance) is a very taxing process for both the liver and the adrenals because when we don’t have available dietary glucose this process has to be up regulated. Because adrenal and thyroid function are in such tight partnership, we often see over time that adrenal function can suffer if in a state of prolonged ketosis as it tries to rescue what it now recognizes as a hypoglycemic state (because we aren’t putting any dietary glucose into the system) and the dropping of T3, this can then skew HPA axis signaling and I’m sure I don’t need to explain why that can lead to worrying downstream effects!

Thirdly, electrolyte imbalance is inherent in ketosis. When we use glucose for fuel we store much more fluid (that’s why ketosis results in so much weight loss at the start of the diet, the weight loss is largely fluid and with that fluid we lose lots of minerals, this is the cause of “keto flu”). Aldosterone created in the adrenal cortex can often be negatively impacted, tending to rise as it tries to keep potassium and sodium well balanced but often can’t because the body is no longer storing minerals as effectively when we are in ketosis - you may notice there are hundreds of keto electrolyte products around trying to combat just this problem. When potassium and sodium in particular are out of balance fluid balance gets knocked out of homeostasis which affects multiple systems - anything from heart rate to cognition to peristalsis.

Fourthly, ketogenic diets (unless you’re stuffing yourself with synthetic supplements which has its own problems) is often devoid of certain nutrients, which we can barely afford to skimp on as hypothyroidism often results in nutritional deficiencies from the get go.

There is a perception that ketosis improves inflammation, in reality what is happening is we are spiking cortisol (due to its urgency to maintain blood and cellular glucose levels) which then dampens our immune response and can give us this anti-inflammatory response. After a time tho in most people the adrenals will not be able to maintain this position for reasons cited above, inflammation begins to creep back in because cortisol levels will inevitably drop as our HPA and HPT axis flail.

In short, ketosis can make someone who is hypothyroid even more hypothyroid. All of this is heavily compounded by the fact that thyroid disease is often not treated properly to begin with. That is to say that most people being treated for thyroid disease are on T4 only treatment so their cellular T3 levels are likely too low to begin with which has knock deleterious effects on cortisol, which will make them more vulnerable to these ramifications before they even start. It’s worth mentioning that ketosis seems to be more detrimental in women, I would need to look into that and think it over more to work out why that is. Nutritional science has never been very good at appreciating biological differences between men and women, often regarding women as nothing more than “small men,” when in reality the complexity of the female endocrine system is stratospheric! So research can be hard to find on it.

It’s also commonly argued that ketosis improves insulin resistance. But this again is quite a misconception. Ketosis doesn’t improve insulin resistance, it simply removes the burden on insulin because it takes carbohydrates away, insulin is bound to reduce if glucose reduces. Lowering of insulin does not equate to improving of insulin sensitivity. In fact, ketosis actually worsens insulin resistance in the short term. Once carbohydrates are reintroduced into the diet insulin levels will go back up again, because that is insulin’s job - to ferry glucose into the cell. Removing the trigger (sugar) doesn’t mean that the mechanism is fixed, it just means that we aren’t challenging the mechanism anymore.

I got caught up in the keto-carnivore movement, and of all the friends I made (8) every single one ran into thyroid or adrenal issues eventually, some of them didn’t even have thyroid issues to begin with. I don’t have an issue with intermittent ketosis - metabolic flexibility is a good thing and we are all lightly ketogenic at night for instance, but a prolonged, forced, sustained hypometabolic state does not do the HPT or HPA axis any favors in my experience and understanding.

[radd]

olgadimitri

Great in-depth reply from  Hidden 👏👍

I too believe thyroid disorders compromise our bodies so extensively we must offer a balanced supply of protein, fats, low carbs and the nutrients found in veg, fruit, etc, to allow thyroid hormones best performance.

Here’s a members experience of keto … healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

And I have offered a fairly comprehensive response here … healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

In addition the carnivore diet is particularly heavy to digest when many hypos have low gastric acid and hard on the liver.

[serenfach]

Our ancestors were hunter/gatherers. They survived in difficult conditions to become our ancestors. We are not that far removed, and our metabolism requires a mix of meat and fruit etc. Personally I think it is the move to a high processed food diet that does a lot of damage.

[Lala1705 in reply to serenfach]

Although our ancestors were primarily gatherers, and the success of hunting was sporadic, meat was never a high proportion of diet in human evolution, until relatively recent medieval times. Industrial 'farming' will have us believe otherwise. Even the only true carnivores, the only species who need meat to survive, the big cats, don't consume only meat, and don't consume it daily, far from it. I completely agree that ultra / processed foods are destroying human and animal health, along with pollution. Meat being one of the most artificially forced, environmentally ruinous and ultra processed 'food' items. That a 'carn' diet is even being recommend shows how much harmful misinformation is being pushed on desperate people.

[Hidden in reply to Lala1705]

Regeneratively raised meat is the best option.

- It kills the fewest lives

- It delivers the most nutrients

- It’s the more environmentally supportive option

Big cats like lions are obligate carnivores and they are not able to eat anything but meat. I believe they eat it daily unless there is a scarcity.

[Lala1705 in reply to Hidden]

I'm a zoologist. Big cat hunts only succeed 10 % of the time. They eat herbivores, and the stomach and 22 mile long intestines of their prey species consist of 100% plant material, and are eaten as a priority. Plant material makes up 30% of even big cats diet. Lots of myths around this, unfortunately. But yes, regenerative meat or preferably, insect protein ,which kg for kg uses the least water, space and resources per kg of 90% protein are the solution to world hunger and Uber chemically processed foods.

[Hidden in reply to Lala1705]

oh that’s cool. Can I ask for an example of an obligate carnivore? I thought lions were a good example. Just because the food is a vegetarian does that make the eater a vegetarian? 😅

But insect protein kills many more lives! Depends where the vegan value system is weighted on how well that argument does…