I am trying to improve T4 / T3 conversion through lifestyle and supplements.
I am on levo 125mg, take supplements of D3 & K2, B Complex, Magnesium and for the past 8 weeks before this test (stopped for 1 week beforehand) 3 Arrows Heme 2 tablets per day.
For past 8-9 weeks I have been gf and started eating more fermented foods, sugar free, fasting 18-20hrs Mon - Fri. Also been working on reducing stress through breathwork and Hot Yin Yoga x1 or x2 each week.
Selenium levels were tested in February and were fine. I continue to eat 2 Brazil nuts per day. Copper was low so I supplemented for 8 weeks.
I feel good. I've lost about a stone (need to lose another 3).
Ferritin has risen from 42 to 61 in this 8 weeks which I'm pleased with. Aiming for 100.
FT3 has risen from 3.4 (Feb '23) to 3.5 (April '23) to 3.7 (July '23).
Medichecks recommendation is this:
"You continue to have slightly low transferrin, however, as your ferritin level is normal this suggests healthy iron stores. I recommend optimising your dietary iron intake to prevent your stores becoming depleted."
2 questions:
1. Those using 3 Arrows heme - what dosage are you taking?
2. is a rise from 3.4 to 3.7 in T3 over 5 months significant or does it fluctuate anyway?
Thank you in advance for any responses, comments or suggestions.
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HotelHurricaine
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Congrats on your success this far! I was never able to improve my conversion through nutrients and lifestyle so find that commendable, esp considering the fasting since I had heard (anecdotally, never looked into it much) that lack of carbs / calories typically decreases conversion. (Could be mediating factors at play in how calories/carbs affect FT3 - e.g., maybe certain nutrient levels can buoy FT3 and protect it from the effects of low calories? Baselessly speculating… )
Seems like a very significant amount for FT3 to have risen in a few months time due to dietary and lifestyle changes alone, in my layman’s eyes, and Id be interested to know if you’re able to get it to continue to rise even more over time. But other more knowledgeable members on this board will be better able to answer your question about that.
Main reason I’m commenting is because it seems like heme iron supplementation has been mentioned a lot on this board this week, and want to make sure people are aware of the research indicating that heme iron notably increases risks of colon cancer. Not sure if people are weighing out risk vs benefit but tagging a couple members that I believe have mentioned heme recently in case this isn’t known. Regenallotment eyeore Not sure who else is taking heme on this board.
Here are a couple articles about that, and many more can be easily found on the www:
Heme iron from meat and risk of colorectal cancer: A meta-analysis and a review of the mechanisms involved: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/212...
Had actually bought heme pills myself many months ago but after coming across this information decided I’d use up the bottle taking a low dose only on occasion. Sounds like people have found it super effective in raising Ferritin levels so I’m sorry to be bearer of bad news if this wasn’t previously known
I have also read recent articles saying heme iron causes colorectal cancer and have been hoping that a supplement for a few months might be ok if I don't eat much red meat.
No idea how to know what is best. It's such a relief to be finally increasing ferritin without side effects that I'm reluctant to stop.
Also would be interested to know once people have raised ferritin to optimal levels how much iron they have to take to maintain levels humanbean
All guess work on my part and would be interested to hear what others on here taking heme think Regenallotment eyeore
Yes, saw that too… But through the rest of the article they continue to discuss heme as a risk to be targeted (for instance in heme-chelation) so.. not sure. Combined with info in other articles it seems to be well established that it’s associated with an increased risk of colon cancer, but of course correlation and risk are different from causation and incidence (edit: not the right term, can't think of the one I'm looking for).
Ok, good, Figured that was most likely the case. Just wanted to make sure it was known.
Wonder if once youve gotten your iron where you want it to be if a low dose non-heme supplement could effectively and easily maintain it?
For what it’s worth, I switched to a low dose (vary the dose I take depending on how long ago my last dose was) Iron Protein Succinylate supplement, and taking that regularly raised my ferritin from 40s to 60s in just a few weeks when I first started. But then life happened, and happened again, so fell off from supplementing several times over the past year and can’t share any long term results on ferritin levels. However I can share that I get no side effects. I haven’t come across any negatives associated with this form in researching it thus far, but I also just haven’t come across a lot of research on it, period. (And admittedly have been a tired, lazy researcher lately.). The company that makes the one I take says you can also take it with food, so that makes it easier to take as well.
This is an interesting thread thanks all.... not sure I have the brain power to take it all in tonight , here's what I can manage, I might be back after a nap 🤗
I'm hoping that once I get my zinc level up then my ferritin level might also stabilize as super researcher radd has informed me today of the connection! Hopefully then I can drop back to just a couple a week?
At the moment I take 1 heme a day (20mg) and really ought to get on and check my levels but I'm fed up with being pricked! I don't eat any red meat and very little pork so swings and roundabout isn't it.... I'm a bit researched out after zinc too 😕
"Vegetarians and vegans need to eat twice as much iron in their diet as meat-eaters to achieve their RDA. Heme iron from meat and heme iron supplements is more easily absorbed by the body."
So roughly 1 capsule a day is double my need as a menopausal woman without taking into account any other dietary iron.... I can only assume they are referring to elemental iron in both cases (help radd )
Not sure I can worry too much about heme now after 30 years of enjoying steak 🤷♀️
"Iron protein succinylate is a form of the mineral iron. It is used to treat iron deficiency anemia (a lack of red blood cells caused by having too little iron in the body)12. It is important for many functions in the body, especially for the transport of oxygen in the blood1. Common side effects of iron protein succinylate may include indigestion, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea or constipation1."
Is it just something Big Pharma have patented as they can't patent bovine heme?
British Dietetic Association... no mention of body weight?
Supplementing zinc usually impairs iron absorption and so why I was surprised to read it can help elevate levels. However, this is through a totally different mechanism to absorption, involving transporters albumin and transferrin (and another I can’t remember. I will look at internet history tonight).
Don’t worry E, I’ve got enough (heamochromatosis) rich iron for everyone and apart from Hashi, no other (contagious 😳) conditions (that I know of). My whole aim in life is trying to reduce the damn stuff 🤣.
I forget you are a freaky iron hording being 👽 which blood group are you? We could trade 😏... it was more that I was throwing myself at your excellent research skills... don't feel obliged, I don't have the beans for it tonight.... I think restoring albumin levels is yet another crucial part of the puzzle for me
However, this is through a totally different mechanism to absorption, involving transporters albumin and transferrin (and another I can’t remember
Erythropoietin is a hormone (not a transporter), needed for erythropoiesis.
It's commonly deficient in hypothyroidism but increases with replacement thyroid hormone meds. Sometimes this up-regulation of the iron metabolism can initially make iron deficiency worsen before improvements can be felt.
Ah, it popped up in connection with the other two...
So you are far more suited to being a meat eater than me being A+ who are apparently more suited to vegetarian diets 😕 so I probably ought to 'do' iron the vegetarian way... my body doesn't seem to resent heme in the way it does meat though....
I'm thinking You, Humanbean, 🍄 and Tatty would make an excellent UC team 😀
Haha, ‘University of Thyroid’ ..... with bottles of supplements as our mascot, but the question cards & irritable fling have been eradicated! 😳 Time moves on Eeyore, even in the UC world.
I don’t eat much meat because I don’t like it, but cook it for the family. We eat a 🌈 and I try to snack on protein bars as opposed to chocolate (sometimes 😁).
Now as a started for ten, the missing transporter is …….. prealbumin. .. short & sweet article here pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/679... (no rats) and noted because of the zinc-iron-thyroid hormone connection. (Prealbumin carries thyroid hormone together with TBG and albumin).
Consuming protein makes protein transporters and hormones. I definitely think you need to eat more steak.
Hi Eeyore, hear you on being researched out, trust me!
Yup I too bought heme last year because it seemed like the best choice in terms of low toxicity and high bio-availability (and was DONE with iron bisglycinate after a couple years of it), before coming across heme's associated risks. Personally found the research concerning because the studies on risk tend to be focused on dietary amounts, and heme iron supplements provide notably more heme than the average red meat-eater would get through diet (for instance 4 oz of red meat is cited as having 2-3 mg iron, presumably all heme?). By the same token, I feel pretty safe in comparison eating red meat in small amounts/on occasion (and always try to buy grass-fed, humanely-raised and butchered meat when i do - tho don't know if that makes any difference re the issue with heme.)
So wanted to make sure you all were aware of the info (there's much more out there than what I cited - encourage anyone interested to look into it, if/when your brain allows!) in making your determinations about supplementing. Have no idea if the the risks of heme supplements separated from meat, or the risk of of short-term supplementing, are different from risks of dietary heme intake. (And again, the research seems to be correlational vs causational thus far. ) Support each person weighing the risk vs benefit individually to make the best decisions for themselves - no right or wrong answer across the board and certainly didn't intend for anyone to feel they need to explain their decision to me 🤗
FWIW I'm likely much more risk-averse than the average person to health side effects associated with pills of any kind, whether meds or supps.
If helpful, here's a 2015 write-up about iron which I thought was fantastic - particularly the diagram about midway down that shows all the different forms of iron, their bioavailability (with and without enhancers such as meat and vit c), side effects, toxicity, and cost. (Note: This article doesn't mention the issue with heme and cancer - was thinking I should reach out to the author to note it!)
After veering away from heme I had decided on IPS due to it's low toxicity, low incidence of side effects, decent bioavailability when combined with enhancers, and because when I did a bit more research including reading supplement reviews, users seemed to find it more effective than the other options that have low side effects and toxicity (besides heme). Again, though, been a tired researcher with limited bandwidth this past year and haven't supplemented with it steadily for any length before testing, so not able to share long term results yet and there may be things I don't know about it. Actually was hoping others on this board might chime in about it. Can only say that thus far from my experience I find it MUCH more tolerable than a few other forms and early results looked promising. Hopefully will be able to share more in a few more months.
Not sure I catch your drift re the patents, sorry feeling a bit zonked out, but probably wouldnt have a useful response even if I did!
Thanks asidist, it is good to know all angles, like you say gotta be in the right mood to take it all in and keep digging, I'm sure the other 'sharper' ones will keep us up to speed whilst we ponder the bits revealed 🤗
Trying to do ourselves right without further wrongs is a full time occupation it seems when a hashi 🙃
p.s. I'm also jealous as I really miss a nice steak and chips but my body really doesn't 😒
Apologies for the delayed reply. Thanks for pulling that out! Hilarious that that tidbit was right in the article I linked 😂 Read the article last year sometime and don't remember it at all - my memory (and bandwidth and articulation and all other cog functioning) is abysmal these days (thanks Hashi's). Can only hope to remember the practical take-aways...
But to the point of what we were discussing, so basically dietary heme amounts that are typically focused on in the heme studies seem to be quite a bit lower than amounts ingested thru supplementation
Oh cripes... I'll have to read back 😵 but I think the general advice with all supplements/ hormones is don't overdo them long term... get to a good level and then drop back to a holding dose or hopefully an amended diet will do the trick...
It is a juggle between what is worse a lack of something or the route to resolve it 🥴
I'm with you retention and recall of all the information is 🤯 I depend on radd 's😏🤗
I started treating my own iron and ferritin levels in 2013. At that time I took iron salts only, I didn't learn about heme/haem supplements for a year or two after I started treating myself. Heme supplements were expensive at that time, and still are as far as I'm aware, at least in comparison to iron salts. There was little or no choice of brand, and most sources involved importing from the USA. I've never taken heme supplements. Heme iron products are now more commonly available in the UK.
I took ferrous fumarate 210mg (FF210) 1 tablet, 3 times a day. Iron salts are cheap and easily found in the UK in pharmacies and online, but they are poorly tolerated by many people (including me). The only way I could tolerate them was by taking them with food, which obviously reduced my absorption and extended the time it took to raise my ferritin and iron. When taking iron salts without food I think the risk of developing gastritis, gastric/duodenal ulcers, and bleeding from the gut is high. In contrast I've read that heme supplements don't cause gut issues.
I wrote about iron supplements in this reply to another member :
When it came to treating my own poor iron and ferritin levels I got my ferritin to mid-range taking the dose I mentioned in 21 or 22 months. My serum iron was still low. I decided that for safety I would not push my ferritin higher than mid-range. I maintained my ferritin at mid-range by taking one FF210 per day for two days a week. I continued taking one tablet of FF210 once a day for a few days a week for five years. I varied the number of days a week I took it from 2 - 5 days a week, depending on my results.
After 5 years on a maintenance dose my ferritin shot up to top of range and my serum iron started rising. At that point I gave up iron altogether, and haven't taken it since. I still do an iron panel a couple of times a year.
...
I have read that meat is dangerous many times, but I don't find the evidence very convincing.
From the abstract of this link given earlier :
The relative risk of colon cancer was 1.18 (95% CI: 1.06-1.32) for subjects in the highest category of heme iron intake compared with those in the lowest category. Epidemiological data thus show a suggestive association between dietary heme and risk of colon cancer.
Cancer of the colon and rectum, taken together, are the third most common type of cancer worldwide (1). In most publications, colon and rectal cancer are studied together and the term colorectal cancer (CRC) is used, which we also use here, except when the publications refer specifically to colon or rectal cancer. CRC is the second most common cause of cancer death in affluent countries. Dietary modifications might reduce this cancer burden by up to 70% (2). Three recent meta-analyses showed that total meat intake is not related to risk but that intake of red or processed meat is associated with a modest, but significant risk of CRC (3–5). Processed meat intake appears to be more closely linked with the risk of CRC than fresh red meat intake.
I have noticed researchers frequently lump non-processed meat intake and processed meat intake together when looking for risks associated with meat. I am prepared to believe that processed meat (e.g. salami, bacon) is more dangerous than non-processed meat (e.g. steak, lamb chops).
I wonder what the dietary modifications were that reduced the cancer burden by up to 70%.
The rats involved in this research had chemically-induced colon cancer. I wouldn't be confident that the damage caused by colon cancer created by artificial means will react the same as cancer created via normal methods.
Epidemiological data thus show a suggestive association between dietary heme and risk of colon cancer.
A suggestive association doesn't convince me. Even correlation doesn't imply causation, and relationships that are made by association are less reliable and believable than correlation.
Also, a relative risk of 1.18 is low. A relative risk of 1.0 when comparing a risk for two groups says there is no difference in risk between those two groups.
Epidemiology often studies risk of disease through time by asking people what they ate last year or the year before or five years ago. It is often unreliable because people don't remember what they ate and they could lie, with or without meaning to.
Obviously everyone has to decide which risks they are willing to take for all sorts of things. Personally, I'm quite happy to eat meat, and if it increases my risk of colorectal cancers, then so be it - it's up to me.
...
Going back to the problem of iron, if I could go back in time and start raising my iron again I would save up and get an iron infusion done privately to speed the whole process up enormously, because I spent far too long with very little iron/ferritin, and it made me feel dreadful.
I took 3 Arrows for 2 months and it took my ferritin up to 140 from around 40-60. I have fibroids)
My conversion of T4 to T3 has rocketed and I’m now over range for both and being carefully monitored by Roseway Labs to bring those down. It could be a Hashi Flare, could be taking T3 has somehow switched on conversion or could be the ferritin raise.
I also saw a documentary that briefly said the risk to cardiovascular health from heme animal supplements is high. I like you took the view that it was a short term fix.
Quantities, I was taking one a day, since testing at 140 I’m taking one every third day. I have a weaker ferritin supplement I take on day 2 and I skip both in day 1. I’ll keep going with that, probably take one daily during my period and the week after.
Then… I’ve purchased a vegan heme supplement from iherb, it’s a biglycinate form. I’ll pick that up when I’ve used these up.
Someone posted recently about heme patches working well for them, sounds interesting.
'My conversion of T4 to T3 has rocketed and I’m now over range for both and being carefully monitored by Roseway Labs to bring those down. It could be a Hashi Flare, could be taking T3 has somehow switched on conversion or could be the ferritin raise'.
You have provided all the right supports, and so now efficiently working thyroid meds needs reducing to that idyllic sweet spot.
Taking the correct amount of thyroid hormones and allowing them to work effectively with adequate iron levels will reduce the chance of thyroid activity and so a Hashi flare.
'1. Those using 3 Arrows heme - what dosage are you taking?'
I don’t supplement any iron as have a genetic iron-overload condition but know that too much heme iron (or heme iron that can not be properly utilised due to other health conditions) promotes oxidative stress. The right amount of oxidative stress helps control the system that detoxifies reactive products so helping to keep cells healthy but too much oxidative stress leads to cell death, inviting conditions such as cancer.
The amount of heme iron supplemented, other health issues, and your genetic disposition to detoxify will all contribute towards whether this supplementation is helpful (or not).
The best way to raise iron levels that can be tolerated so used correctly by all bodily systems is the same as T3 - low and slow, and dietary sources may outweigh supplements for some members. Also try to reduce any low grade inflammation that impairs good iron utilisation (this includes highly elevated thyroid antibodies).
2. is a rise from 3.4 to 3.7 in T3 over 5 months significant or does it fluctuate anyway?
You are making really positive changes (well done 😊) but unfortunately they can take a while to be fully recognised. If you have the capacity to convert enough T3 for well-being, all theses changes will contribute to an extent but I think you need a Levo dose raise to higher FT4 levels as yours are only 30% through range. Your nutrients all look good. Again well done 👍.
Optimising thyroid hormones will allow even better nutrient absorption and usage, and this in turn will encourage better conversion to T3.
Your transferrin saturation is low because TIBC is higher than serum iron levels which fluctuate daily depending on what you eat. Therefore, if you conducted this test on another day you may well achieve better results. It is the transferrin (protein transporters depicted as TIBC - ‘total iron binding capacity’ which means the amount of iron attached to the tranferrin) that members often struggle to raise due to inflammatory conditions but yours are good.
If you had copper tested, did you have zinc? People with thyroid issues are more likely to be low in zinc than copper, and the two should balance.
"I think you need a Levo dose raise to higher FT4 levels as yours are only 30% through range."
Thank you radd for your reply so many months ago - I coudn't quite understand this at the time - wasn't sure what FT4 was but think its same as Free Thyroxine - have since increased my Levo by 12.5mcg and am 5 weeks in and feeling much better, weight is melting off me 😊
Do you know where FT4 levels should be through range? Should they be 75%, so around 19.5 (12-22)?
Yes, FT4 is free thyroxine. Where our thyroid hormone levels best lay is different for everyone. Mine are relatively low compared to many on the forum. Your best level is where you can achieve and maintain recovery.
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